what distance tri are you training for?

Two 15 mile runs doesn't seem to make much sense. I would run more days. I typically run around 40 normally, here is what mine looks like this.

M 4 easy
T off
W 8 tempo
T 4 easy
F 8-10 interval
S 4 easy
S 12-14

M - 6
Tu - 6 tempo
W - 4
Th - 8 total w/ a track workout
F - 6
Sa -
Su - 10

Long bike ride goes on Saturday. The rest of the bike rides are on the trainer usually on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. I vary the run mileage +/- 10 but that format stays the same. Easy run the day after tempo, track workouts, and the long run, with a day off from running for the long bike the day before long run.

I've done this a lot at different phases. I don't worry about how to slice it and dice it. I just try to get 45 min of running in daily 5 days of the week, 15 min a 6th day and 90 min on one day. For the 45 min runs, sometimes there may be 2x10 min run commuting to the pool and another 20-30 min run off the bike commute home. Sometimes rather than 45 min, might run 60 min at lunch. Sometimes, I will jog 15 min on the treadmill to heat my body up before hopping on the bike for a cold bike commute...and then when I get home after a cold ride home run another 20-30 min to heat back up. It's just a lot of running all over the place around the swim and bike. A few days a week some of those short runs will have intervals or hills, but I don't get too caught up in specifics...it's just all mileage and I just fill in the :"cracks" around swim and bike opportunistically rather than make time for running. I already have to make time for swimming and biking and it is too stressful to make large chunks of time to run...so just run whenever it works with a target to add up to 45 min per day somehow.

I think too many people over complicate things and end up not getting enough training in for their goals. The trick as an age grouper is not to do optimal workouts, the trick as an age grouper is to make more time to just train. If you just train it all adds up...there is not that much magic any specific breakdown will give.

By the way, I will use the same approach at other times of year when I am only running 20-30 miles per week.

During the race season:

M 4 Easy
T 3 Brick run
W 10 with threshold intervals
T 3 Brick run
F 4 Easy
S 3 Easy
S 12-14 Long

It is January after all and I'm not trying to work on anything but aerobic. It looks like this right now

Monday 8.5
Tuesday 8.5
Wednesday 8.5
Thursday 8.5
Friday 8.5
Saturday 8.5
Sunday 8.5

If I'm tired I take a day off. Simple as that. In reality, I have thrown in one or two longer runs, a couple of harder shorter efforts up a hill on my home but that is about it. The beauty of this early season work is that it is stable, you don't have to worry about racing and recovering. You get to get in enough work but not enough that you are shelled the next day and you get to see yourself go slow, but for the same pace you heart rate keeps dropping.

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I would try and sneak an extra .5 in there on day per week.. OOC is your time and course consistent?

OP here. I'm targeting a July HIM. I'm admittedly not doing anything optimal-scientific so I'm not going to give any super rational justification of my training, which is pretty easy to critique.

Mainly, I'm trying to get back to my pure runner roots after 4 years of being a pretty balanced triathlete and seeing my run times gradually worsen (they're back up to where I like them, so that part is working), I have these amazing hilly trails where I've got a lovely 2.5hr loop run of 15 miles that I don't even need to drive to, and since it's too early for my 4 month prerace build (Vineman July target race), I prefer being off the roads due to cars and much prefer being on the trails for enjoyments sake.

Not unexpectedly though, after about 5 weeks of 'gawd this is tiring' acclimating to the 40mpw run volume + some biking on top, I'm solid on the run/bike volume, and am finding that 3hr bike rides at a true 80% FTP (done on a Kickr, recently tested 20' FTP test) is no problem despite my relatively low bike volume right now, so there's def some significant x-over effects for me.

Mostly 50-55 min runs 5-6x a week. Maybe a long run of 90 mins. One run will have some hard efforts (vo2 max for now, more tempo/threshold closer to races). If I were you, I'd probably drop one of those 15milers in exchange for two shorter runs. 45mi in just 4 runs is a lot, I think, week in and week out, marathoner or not.

So does this mean you're often doing 1hr running + 1-2hrs biking in the same day more than once a week?

Absolutely...no way I could handle 59.5 on my log!

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Time drops a bit from Dec-Jan. Has gone from 108-110ish to 103-60ish. Half of the days are on a treadmill, half outside on the same course, although things like wind and weather change. Outdoors I always build into the workout. In doors I do it differently, it was a of MS 4.5x @ 8mph increase mph by .1 every minute for 10 minutes, incline 1% for 45 minutes. I just moved that 4.5x to 5x this past week. Indoors I have just focused on increasing distance, but given that might heart rate is now only peaking at about 132 on the 1 minute at 8.9 mph I'm going to have to move the pace up at some point as I'm well below where I want to be with my HR and I really don't want to move the distance to much further as I have other sports to focus on as well.

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M: swim intervals, run 5
T: 1h trainer intervals, run 5
W: run 8 to 15 depending
T: 1h trainer intervals, run 5
F: swim intervals, run 5
Sa: long ride
Su: run 20

I do run-heavy program, suboptimal but I've found I enjoy this balance the most lately. Suck at swimming and time-crunched. I can brick everything in the AM if life demands, and I stay in great shape by running about 50mpw. Also from long running background so have had no issues with injuries doing that 20 almost every week the day after a long ride. All runs easy, from 7 to 8min/mi (HIM pace about 6:30).

Thomas, if you are doing that much treadmill time, is there a reason you don't do some work at 8-12% incline....seems like that offers the cardio benefits with almost no pounding. I've even seen my bike wattages go up with I go on biz travel and do some treadmill runs in between 4-12% for the entire run and end up with a ton of intensity with close to no pounding. Most people don't like to use incline because they don't get credit for as much mileage though...

Tues and Thursday group runs (intervals) usually add on so I get 5-6 miles
wednesday 6-7 sometimes miles
Friday 5ish
saturday long run so anywhere from 15-22 depending on the week
sunday 3-8

varies but that is a rough idea

trainer rides are now tues/thurs mornings
long trainer rides sundays
swim mon/wed will add friday

training for marathon in April, duathlon May, HIM July

'

No there is no reason, actually will probably move to hill work - I'm a huge fan of it, The biggest thing right now is that unlike a lot of triathletes I don't have a permanent home and I'm always on the move. In this rare case I have a mirror in front of my current treadmill situation so I am trying to use that to work on my form as much as possible as well.

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As his coach I can answer that. Yes, it does mean that.
Don't most triathletes do that?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

There are triathletes that do half-irons and full-irons who don't do that?!

I think ST's generally accepted schedule is:

3-5 swims per week.
3-4 rides per week (unless you bike commute, then way more)
5-6 runs per week.

Dev, what pace are you doing the incline runs (relative to flat run pace)? I have been doing a runs like that once or twice a week warming up for 5 to 10 mins and then spending most of the run in 4 to 8%. Its been too icy to do my standard outdoor hilly routes so treadmill is pretty much all I have for a quality workout. I have IMLP this year and am planning on a strong run so hill work is definitely needed.

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

What I do is I run the hills at 7-8 mph 8-12% range and recover in between 7 mph at 2% if I want to feel like I am getting on flat, but if I want to do a continuous uphill run then I don't go below 4% grade. The mix between steep and recovery is typically 50/50 and I keep it short.....45-60 seconds so there is a fair amount of "button pressing". I find the treadmill hill work seems to translate well to IM running on the flats where your legs feel heavy like you are running up a hill.

Sounds great. I'll give it a shot tomorrow. Thanks

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

to add on what desert dude said, i think if you've got good run fitness, then you really only sacrifice a few watts if you ride in the evening after running in the morning. it's not about riding on tired legs, it's just getting in as much training load as possible. also, if i'm riding the same day, then I really don't worry about running hard at all. I'll just let the pace settle where it does.

Averaging my pacing for a whole week, I will hit 40+ miles in roughly 5~6 hours of running. I take half of those hours and divide them up: 2 hours steady long run, and 1 hour of quality work. That 1 hour of quality is not all in the same run though, I'll divvy that time up among hill repeats, track intervals, tempo work, quick running off the bike etc. So that gives me roughly 3 hours of easy pace running that I use as warmup/cooldown for the quality work.

This week I'm actually going to be doing 7 hours of running, so while I'll keep my long run the same length, I might stretch out my quality work into an hour and a half. But, this is the first time in months I've hit this kind of volume, so I'll probably keep to an hour of quality work until I've gotten more used to running this much.

I think more importantly than being a slave to "hard-coded" workout days like that week in & week out, as you crank up mileage you need to build up to it over time to support any structure if over 40 mpw. Why? When you finally get there--to 40 mpw, how you structure the runs really should be flexible so that you can be prepared to heal the body from being beat up too much. If you're older (40+), the body can bark at you really quick in high mileage run training.

I suggest using a loose structure but listen to your body to steer how mileage is doled out on a week to week basis. You may have a 10 miler scheduled today but may need an extra day off or two from a hill or speed workout. You may also need to bail on a land-contact run & replace it with an aqua jog session because your legs are too hammered from a previous day. Just say'n...body responses trump "hard coded scheduled training" in a long & healthy training program--another good reason to have a coach, they can protect you from yourself!

Running a little under 40mbps now. Well, with a broken toe I'm currently running 0 miles this week.... but normally I try to get in a run of some kind each day. Week looks like this:

M- 4
T-6
W-4
T-4
F-5
S-4
S-10ish

Those aren't always exactly the same but it's pretty much how each week ends up. I alternate easy runs with some tempo and occasionally Wednesday is some track work. When I recover from the toe, ill get back to that schedule and then ramp the 4s to 5s and extend the Sunday long run to get up around 42ish mpw.

The timing of this thread is interesting to me as I was just trying to figure out how to fit in higher run volume into training this year. After doing the Pfitzinger 12week, peak 55mi training plan for a recent marathon, I felt that this was the minimal mileage necessary to come close to my potential for the marathon. There is no way I could fit in a similar plan, plus adequate swim and cycling volume for IM, into my available time. I am looking to devise a plan that will allow for high peak running mileage by building/alternating between weeks of high run volume or high cycling volume without losing cumulative gains. Maybe one of the coaches on the forum has found a way to cycle his/her age group athletes in a way to allow for peak run/cycling volume and still balance life ?

This is actually why I made my first post in the thread....note the very "loose" schedule around swim and bike training with lots of runs filling up gaps in the day (or going with slightly shorter swims and rides to tack on some running)....it allows one to adjust to deal with the body's needs with the only goal to average around 45 minutes per day through the weekdays. If I feel good, then maybe it ends up being 60 with some intensity....not so good, maybe only 20 min today and super easy. Goal is to just to aggregate mileage because in the end mileage trumps almost everything you can possibly do on less miles (to a degree). As Thomas noted, part of the goal is to log enough today to comfortably get to the start line of tomorrow's training. Getting to the start line of tomorrow's training is more important than squeezing out the last 5% of training load in today's workout...better to sacrifice the last 5% today to get 95% out of tomorrow's load than to get the full 100% today and 0% tomorrow.

We just have different thoughts on this. I do 27 miles a week. 3 days of 90 minute LSD hills, cross country. When one is younger, yep, one might get away with all this running. But once folks hit in their 50's, one
no longer worries about run speed. One just needs to worry about being able to run either at all, or with some type of speed. Just staying in shape to me is more important. I am putting my bet on riding my
indoor bike trainer with powercranks 90 minutes a day, 7 days a week. I few 10 minute bricks on the treadmill.

I have no idea why so many put so much focus on the run. It just beats one up. I know it is easy but. I see so many getting their butts kicked on the bike, and this means me. Very few win on the run,
most lose it on the bike.

Oh well, we just come at this from about 10 years difference of age. All one needs to ask is why are there so few folks racing in the 55 and over AG, let alone can run fast at all.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave.....don't forget that not everyone on this forum is 55-59 and they might not even care to do triathlon at 55-59. Thy might be 25-29 and trying to be as fast as they can possibly be. While breaking down is a big reason why less people race at 55+, there are also many good reasons why guys don't race anymore at that age outside of physical ability. They may have chosen other pursuits in life. Triathlons fit in nicely around work life in the sense that they are a great challenge and you can break the training up around work. Other pursuits may need full time focus that then consumes the entire focus when one no longer works and people may choose to retire from both work and triathlon and do other things that have been put on hold.

By the way, your three days of 90 minutes probably beats you up much more than 8-12 shorter runs that add up to 40 miles. I'll let Desertdude comment on that though. From a time management perspective, allocating 3x 90 min runs makes opening up time for swim and bike which tend to be more time consuming more difficult. For most working athletes with kids, opening up big blocks of time is the single biggest challenge which is why I suggest to not worry too much about major run workouts and just long mileage a gradually over the week while devoting the big blocks of time to swim and bike.

Dev, I understand that. But if you blow your legs out young, you will lose a lot more than just the ability to do tri's.

You and others can push to run, run, run until you break. I get it. I just come from the other side offering to folks to think about why so many older folks cannot race, or run. Is it worth the short term risk
and maybe glory to be limping around when one gets older.

I just hardly see folks who push the running talk about this risks they are taking.

So let folks go for it, they just need to realize their are some long terms risks involved. Will most young folks care? Nope. But with age comes wisdom. Most young folks ignore listening to older folks, I get it.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You aren't basing your anti running push in scientific facts. The more recent research doesn't support your theory that running destroys your legs later in life. As Dev points out, the reasons for fewer racers at the 50+ age groups has much more to do with life choices that an inability to run.

And, you run 27miles. That isn't exactly a small amount of running on a weekly basis. I've never in my life run over 27 miles in a single week. Everyone has their own bias in life, but most can recognize it. You seem to think 40miles is crazy but 27 is low for a 57 yr old. Some might not see the world as you do.

I disagree with h20run strongly that you have 'limited miles' in your legs. This has never been shown to be the case, and in fact the reason why I, and many others run MORE, both now and in our younger days, is to preserve our ability to run (and run fast for our level).

I found from direct experience, that cycling, no matter how hard I go and regardless of how good a cardio exercise it is, is no substitute for the pounding of running. I can be in the best shape ever for cycling for myself, yet be physically unable to run a half marathon at even what I consider a borderline respectable pace and will likely have to walk parts of it, if I don't put in at least a semblance of normal run training in terms of volume.

I think one of the worst pieces of advice I see for non-hardcore triathletes who aren't already pushing their training volume very high, and don't have significant run experience/background, is to 'focus on the bike' and neglect the run.Can't tell you how many people I've met in races who thought they'd PR it by crushing the bike, but don't realize they'll lose 2x the time gained by being subtrained on the run. Heck, that's what I did last season as a test, with a bike focus, and a cutback of run volume (still over 25mpw), and I absolutely ate it on the run - worst race run ever.

What I'm really liking about running at least at my nonelite level, is that the leg and cardio endurance from the run training seems to carry extremely well to triathlon cycling. Like a nearly 1:1 rate of return for me, meaning I near equality from running as I do from doing actual cycling training in terms of prepping for HIM distance triathlon racing. I definitelly would be underpeforming in bike criteriums or anything requiring a lot of high peak power without dedicated bike training, but for a HIM, where I'm finding that the goal for an AGer like myself is NOT to 'win the bike' but to 'go easy enough that I can hammer the run', tough hilly run training is pretty much as good as bike training for me. (The only real limiter is avoiding 4hr runs from the injury risk, so a few long rides def help.)

The only problem with too much hill running is that I think it can promote a quad heavy running style. Triathletes have "shuffle" enough as it is. I hear your point on less pounding but you gotta run if you expect to run on race day.

I'm in that category (with some weeks down to probably 30-35 miles due to life happening). What has worked well for me is focusing on 2 or 3 key sessions of 60-75 minutes (one or two of those are a hard workout and the rest is easy running with a lot of strides). The rest of the days are easy blocks of 20-40 minutes, normally attached to a bike or swim workout. I would find it hard to hit 40+ in just 4 runs, but running pretty much everyday makes it achievable. I run a lot of shorter races (mile-5K - and only do sprint triathlons) and this schedule suits me well. If I were training for something longer (e.g. a 10K), I would probably focus more on a longer run of 90+ minutes once a week.

I'm just getting back into triathlon training after spending most of 2014 and this past month focusing on the run stuff. My approach is not a weekly plan, but a daily plan. I have two types of days that I alternate during weekdays. I take rest days or modify my plan based on how I feel and/or my travel schedule.

Weekday training:

Day A: Swim in the AM plus an 8-11 mile run workout in the PM
Day B: Bike trainer workout plus 4-6 mile easy run

On the weekends, I'll do a longer ride one day and a longer run on the other.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

I have no idea where you are racing but across the globe, in the races my athletes do, and they do 100's of them every year, the #1 trend I see is that those who run among the fastest finish overall and in their age group the highest.

The reason a lot of 50yo run slow has nothing to do with what they did as a kid, youngster, 20-40yo and has a lot to do with the aging effect.

There are several great threads on ST talking about this. Probably not a bad idea for one to go search and read.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Why do some people record distance as opposed to time? Distance also depends on how fast you run...I prefer to think of time as you then don't have to worry about a hilly long run being less than 20kms but taking 2 hours or so. For the people recording distance, do you get into a competition with yourselves?

I will let my results speak for themselves.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just because you can run fast doesn't mean your method is the best, nor it is the most correct. For most people, running LESS = more propensity to get injured once they start racing on the run.

What part of your results (n=1) will prove something? What are you trying to prove? Don't leave us hanging without the full benefit of your wisdom, old man.

.

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.

Hey Dave....we totally get that it is harder to race at 55-59 because of bodies breaking down....but you are talking to me like your n=1 is the ultimate authority. I have done over 40,000 miles of competitive running in my life and aside from a bad crash, nothing is stopping me from running....but what I can do is irrelevent. There are plenty of runners around the world who run with good form and great body composition and good bone alignment, who can sustain really decent milege well into their grand masters-grand grand master and grand grand grand masters running careers...if they want. But there are plenty of guys who don't want to. I'm racing 50-54, so it's not exactly like I am a clueless 27 year old with 1 year in the sport on the verge of self destruction. so the statement about "not listening to older guys" is a bit out of reality...also I would rather listen to guys like Desertdude, Noakes and many more who are not going off N=1 but have data from 1000's of athlete years. At this point I have over 100 athlete years to observe from, and plenty of guys in that 100 athlete years were older than you, did more run mileage than you and also swam and biked faster than you, but that still does not prove anything...they just may have had better starting point genetics than you have....speed and race results don't prove anything between athletes...race results do prove something for the same athlete on a given protocol, all things being equal....but all things are never equal, so we can only look at the trends for that athlete after having applied a new training approach.

By the way, I don't really know a single coach of any pedigree doling 3x90 min runs in a week, but point me to one and the reasoning. At the same time, I will concede that most coaches don't ask their athletes to do a ton of really short runs around swim and bike. My strategy is around time management and being able to modulate what intensity happens in all those runs by having many opportunities to run...sometimes the morning short run will suck, but after a few meal cycles and more hours of gap since yesterday's workout, the next workouts can be pretty good. Most importantly it opens up time for swim and bike, which is often the most challenging task and what the OP was really asking about.

You just do not seem to get the point I continue to try and make, but thats fine. You guys keep pushing to see when folks break, I keep giving advice for folks to look at the possible risks.

We just have different experiences and clearly have talked to vary different "older" athletes. And 50-54 is still a very studly group and usually performance increasing.

Just go look at the ranking results. The data does not lie.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Testosterone for teh win.

3x90' running per week - is not good advice for people to follow to help reduce the risk of being injured while running.

x2

If performance was supposed to increase at 50-54, Dave Scott would have gone sub 8 hours 5 years ago!!! Agreed....lots of T floating around. I was just working out with a 50-54 buddy who has a bunch of Mdot 140.6 podiums and Kona races under his belt....he was saying perhaps more people are in the sport, to which I replied, "yes, more people should make the results faster and deeper....but pro times have not dropped much and 25-34 times are similar to 20 years ago....so, either the old guys are training way smarter....or it is T therapy all over the place" I vote for some of the former, but mainly a lot of the latter.

Has worked for me for years. So many of the studly folks in my AG have been out with things like PF, etc.

You forget I use powercranks 7 days a week. I do stairs ALL day long since I live in a house and lot that is nothing but hills.

Or I am just plain lucky.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You had to go there.

maybe, maybe not. You have the data that says the guys who beat me are on "T"? Lot's of talk, not much data (yet). I won 6 out of 8 this year (50- 54, 3 halfs and 3 oly's). The only T is what my body gives me (or, doesn't give me).

To the OP's point. I know Dave quite well. We agree on some stuff and disagree on others. He IS the master of managing his run economy (i.e., body weight).

I agree w/lightheir, (the OP), re: Running and the relationship to good cycling. For many years I'd travel for business up to 3 weeks per month. So, I'd run wherever the heck I was, and, not skip quality (track, etc.) then, when home I'd hammer on the bike - things worked out OK in the overall picture. Certainly a more stable lifestyle would have been better, but, I made do.

This year I'm attempting to return to my running roots and do a modified BarryP running plan.

To answer the OP's question for me. I'm trying to get to 40 - 55 mpw. for the lower end of that range I go Sun, Mon. Wed, Thurs, Fri. Quality on Sunday and Wednesday, easy on Thurs. Longer on Friday. for the mileage above 50ish then I'd go six days.

My problem is I love to do hard stuff on the track - but it's (as Dave would put it) high risk, high reward. And, I'm pushing the borderline. For me, though, I love training and racing.

Enjoy the journey

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Okay, its on. :)

Lets see, how many races did you beat me on the run last year? :)

Now, you try your new running plan, I will stay on my boring one.

Lets then first see who gets to the starting line.

Then lets see if you can beat me, a guy a number of years older than you.

And nope, you do not have the body to be on T. :)

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why not, it works for me.

Powercranks are a way I can get run training while on my bike without having to pound my legs.

Seems this could be an option for the OP to consider.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Too bad they haven't done anything for your bike...

.

.

This is something I've been thinking about, too. I can structure life/work so that I can work a lot one week (and fit in more running), then ease off the work volume the next week to spend more time on the bike. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this.

I recently took 5 min off my best HIM run. I did it with running 40+ miles a week and no powercranks.

Never felt like I was pounding my legs. I'll be 50 in a few years too.

jaretj

Search "BarryP" on here.

(3) 4 mile recovery runs or a day off with (2) medium 8 miles runs and (1) long 12 mile run.

Set a 1/2 marathon PR last year and ran awesome in a 70.3 3 weeks later doing very little faster running, very little (<10% above easy pace). I worked up to 45mpw that spring, and ran 45-55mpw most of the winter prior during a run focus.

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TrainingBible Coaching
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Yeah, I've been doing the BarryP plan for a while, and it's working great. Slowly getting faster, and durability is way up. For me, that is huge. But my question (and, I think, rmg's) is if you can see-saw a higher volume run week with a higher volume bike week without losing running gains.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking something like ...

week 1: 30 miles run, 2-3x 1hr bike trainer, 3x swim
week 2: 20 miles run, 3x1hr bike trainer + 2 longer outdoor rides, 3x swim.
Repeat/build week one, then week two, and so on.

I've always tried to keep my weeks consistent, build steadily, etc. It's okay, but life gets in the way more often than not. But I'm thinking that I might be able to fit more overall volume in if run lots one week, bike lots (run less) the next, run lots (bike less) the next, repeat ad infinitum. What I'm doing now clearly isn't getting me the results I want, so I'm thinking about trying something different!

For me it's:

Monday: 0 (rest day)
Tuesday: 8 (intervals)
Wednesday: 8 (endurance pace)
Thursday: 8 (intervals)
Friday: 0
Saturday: 16-20 (long run, endurance pace)
Sunday: 6 (recovery run)

I do about the same volume on the bike (I should do slightly more, but my schedule doesn't allow it unfortunately) and I hit the pool 2-3 times a week.

First of all....you have been around long enough and have had enough consistent results that I don't think anyone was pointing at you....I THINK the people that NickB (and myself) are pointing to are those that make dramatic improvements in their late 40's and early 50's....that defies biology and yes, I realize that there are some with good genetics who get off the couch late in life and 5 years later are still improving, but even then, you can smell what is fishy from miles away.

In terms of you vs Dave.....maybe Dave just has better running genetics than you and his program is sub optimized. By the way, it is fine having a sub optimized program if it gets you to the start line at 98% fitness and no injuries....I think this is what Dave is pointing to...and I do support him in the use of powercranks as supplementary run training, but that is a totally different topic. Yesterday I did a 60 min roller ride+3 hour classic XC ski + 30 min run...basically 4.5 hours of run "simulation" but only 30 min of real running. I would put classic skiing in the category of "run + swim" simulation as I get the conditioning for both sports out of that....different ways to skin the cat for sure. But I don't think that the OP was asking for different ways to get close to perfectly optimized run fitness....he was asking for how to get 40 mpw while doing tri training.

PS. Doing IM South Africa in 8 weeks and planning to be there on good aerobic conditioning, but sub optimized tri fitness. I just can't bear the thought of sitting on the trainer for that long. I think I can get within 20 minutes of my perfect time on general aerobic conditioning.

Ahhh the ad hominim attacks come out.

I've found this thread pretty interesting, as, for the first time, I'm planning on hitting 40 mpw in my training cycles this year. I had the "calf heart attack" , a repetitve use injury that was linked to a particular biomechanical sequence that took years to suss out, and I've built back up slowly to 20mpw and 30 mpw, and would like to hit 40 mpw on peak weeks this year, with 40mpw being pretty consistent next year.

So I'm building up gradually, and cautiously, 'cause ain't much progress being made if you're injured or overtrained. Along those lines, one of my effective recovery tools has turned out to be kicking sets in swimming. For instance, I do a strong run sequence Tu/Wed/Th, with Friday exclusively a swim day, giving the legs a rest for long bike/short run Saturday and short technique bike/long run Sunday. On Friday, I'll make sure to do at least 500m total kicking, put together in various combinations, but always including a few hard intervals, and some longer easy intervals. It shakes out my legs nicely without any pounding. They feel a little jelly -like afterwards, but not like hard running, and I come into the weekend with my legs feeling pretty loose. And, since I don't use a kickboard, it is a nice technique exercise forcing me to really work on my body position in the water.

Anybody else do something similar?

Exactly what I'm thinking, just on a 4-6 week cycle where there is more of a gradient in bike and run volume.
Bike: build, build, peak, rest
Run: build, build, rest, peak
Swim: for me remains consistent at 3/wk 10-12k scy
-swim only days would be considered a rest day for me
-days off reserved for travel/family stuff

Filling up the schedule with structured workouts is the next step.

and "the next step" is always my problem! :-)

Nope, never done anything for my bike, and I never expected them to. But I do LOVE what they have done to help me with my run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I had that calf heart attack back in the winter of 2005-2006. Planned on running 30-35 mpw, was on schedule and then one day...bam! calf hurt bad. It took 2 weeks to come back from that.

Why it happened? I was going into my 3rd year and significantly upped my mileage. I was not a runner, was trying to become one and bit off a little more than I could chew.

In hindsight, for someone in that stage of their running career I would slowly build that volume up over 12-16 weeks. After that much easy running I might introduce some intensity into their program.

I did it too fast and aggressive. I can do it now because I'm much more durable and have many more years of running behind me. I would not suggest someone to up their volume by 50% over 6 weeks to get to 40 mpw just because it's their goal number. It's the appropriate volume for a person in their stage of development that gets them running well.

jaretj

That's where I was hoping some of the coaches on here might be able to point us in the direction of some reference plans that are structured like this. Eventually, the thread will get back to the OP's question and the pissing match sidelined.

Dev, I was having a great time doing my training this morning and thinking about the constant stuff I get that my training program just sucks.

Well, I love challenges, helps keep me motivated.

So I started to really focus at 50. So, I still believe in results on folks I like to listen to. (You have great results so I listen to your stuff)
Since then 8 times All American. Last three years top 20 ranking. Yea, I have no idea what I am doing. And nope, I was a nothing
younger so no one can say I was born fast. It has all been hard work.

So I see lots of folks saying they have done so much better with all this extra running stuff. But then I see things like they just turned 50.
As I will say, I have been looking at the older racer for just about a decade, and I have posted many times what I have seen and believe in.
When and if others get to be my age with good results, .....

I love the I just knocked X amount of time off my PR. Well, what was the time?

So, I just did some age grade stuff, and lets have some fun.

For Keith, who has always been a stud, and I believe a sub 5 miler younger, who did not beat me in the run last year, and is 53, do the BarryP
run training. So, here at the Age Graded times you can shoot for to beat my times last year at 57. For the 10K at the end of our Olympic races,
you need to beat 81.32%, or a 38:41 10K since I was at or below 40 in my races last year. Then at the end of the season, do the half marathon run
at the end of the Rancho Cordova Challenge race. I ran a 84:77% 1:24 so you need to run a 1:21:09

For you Dev at 50 and all the other folks who say they are kicking butting running so much, here are your numbers to beat this year.
For the 10K at the back of an Olympic race, you need a 37:45. Then run an open half marathon, you need a 1:19

When folks kick my butt with their training against these age graded times, then lets talk.

Now, at 58 this year, I am going to see if I can keep these kind of times with my wimpy training. 3 days a week running, 90 minute, 10 mpm LSD runs.
6 to 7 days a week powercranks on the bike trainer. Hoping to add in the bionic runner if I get in April. Now you guys really have me motivated to use
my non standard training and see what I can do.

Still want to try and keep my bike times the same as last year and or gain 30 seconds, so will see.

So Dev and Keith and others, game? :)

.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I can't figure out how to do it otherwise. Two one-hour (or a 0:45 and a 1:00+) workouts a day at least a few days a week seems pretty much required if you want to get in all the work you need to get in.

My friend Pierre Lavoie has won numerous IM's including Kona in his age group. What he does is one week he works a lot at the office and focuses on a big week of running and lower volume. Next week, he takes one or two morning's off work and that what he does is big bike and swim focus both of which are time consuming...but light on the run. Most of us won't have the flexibility to take even one morning off work (although many well), but when you are gunning for a Kona podium win then burning some vacation time this way is worth it.

Also I have recommended the 9 days "on" 5 days "recovery" cycle to others...this means every weekend is big, and the first 5 weekdays in between you have 3 days of intensity focus and then in the next 5 weeks days they are all recovery/light/rest/sleep in days to recharge, any many cases more mentally than physically...keeping the pressure on to get the workouts in is what most often leads to age grouper burnout. In this case your "40 mpw" would only happen on alternate weeks, but that's probably not a bad thing anyway.

Personally I don't believe in "builds" and believe more in the "repeatable week". When life gets out of the way, you opportunistically bag a "massive week"....then you go back to your "repeatable week". The trick is to make a cycle that is repeatable...this is different for each person depending on their athletic background, life stresses, obligations, kids etc etc. Basically the hard part is structuring a life routine that is predictable and the training falls into the cadence of that life routine. Once that is established you are golden. With the guys in my training group the biggest challenge is converging on that for them. Some are good time manager and can fall into the repeatable cadence. Some are horrible priority managers and let other people take over their precious time....they have no control over their priority management so then it is working around that helter skelter personality type where everything is a fire (you guys know who they are in your work environment and they exist all over our sport).

Yes, I think you can and that is likely something I'll try this year in my IM builds. 2 slightly bigger bike weeks with a higher volume run week between. But consistency really does beat all.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Frequency.

Run "easy".

Slowly increase volume.

Don't over-emphasize a single long run.

This is gold, Dev! Thanks! I'm finding that I can plan "repeatable weeks," but i lose the consistency on a regular basis. I'm on a two-week production schedule at work with loads of flexibility on how I meet my production. So ... rather than try to force each week being the same, I may be better off accepting that I tend to front load work and plan my workouts around that. Obviously trying to have a repeatable week isn't working for me. Your friend's schedule makes sense, and I'm fortunate that I can lighten my second week (work-wise) even more than he can! May as well try it. Worst case, I'll be no worse off than I am now!

Frequency, Consistency, then duration. All so simple.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, please try this. I believe it is a much healthier way, and gives your mind and body a chance to cope with Life+Training load. As Desertdude said elsewhere, an "undulating" approach is often most realistic. Not that we should use the results of a genetically blessed guy to corroborate an approach, but Pierre goes head to head with a pile of genetically blessed guys at Kona and is in the hunt on a much less "aggressive" approach.

To Dave, racing results don't prove anything on N=1. The genetic starting point of each athlete has more to do with the race results all things aside from training approach being equal. And.....it's a triathlon, we're talking about not a running race. So if you're going to even get into a "competition slant" then you need to count all three....but whether you are faster, I am or anyone else is proves nothing other than a given protocol got you and I certain results...but we can't compare against each other, we can only compare on ourselves....or we apply both protocols to a very wide group of people and measure the percentage improve outcomes (or not).

Or how many are injured.

You are not fun. Trust me, you and many others had much better parents. This is why I never have anything to lose in racing, I never was any good.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just bumped up to a consistent 40mpw last month and am starting to wonder about structure going forward too. It's all pretty much theory at this point because I'm just starting to work swims and rides back in, but my thought process was to have something kind of like:

(starts Monday, ends Sunday)
Runs: 8, 4.5, 12, 3, 4.5, 8, off

I want to keep those in the morning on non-bike days because it gets hot fast, but bike days are PM runs. Rotate quality in the 8 milers depending on the week and how the other workouts fit in.

Bike: off, 1.5 hours, off, 1.5 hours, off, off, 2.5-3 hours

Always in the morning. Current thinking is to do the quality work on the second bike after the long run and put some quality like long tempo intervals in the long ride.

Swim: threshold, off, strength, off or easy OWS, endurance, off, off or easy OWS

Typically in the evening. I figure I'll do buoy/paddles on the same day as my long run, and will more than likely take a long lunch on Fridays to get that swim done earlier in the day. Most swims will be 3000-4000m, depending on the workout, OWS will be 500-1000m just to keep technique.

Moving the long run to the middle of the week looks like it'll be the best idea for me, keeps quality work to no more than two days in a row with an easier day in between. That's just my general idea, with enough sway built in that I could move stuff around week to week and not mess with it too much. Plus I get to have a full evening off Friday, essentially all of Saturday and Sunday too. Gotta keep that social life.

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Abell

What evidence do you have that your genetics limit your current performance levels? Do you have some physiological testing from your younger years? Did you train seriously as a runner in college and not make it to a decent level? I always find it interesting that people say they are poor athletes when they have no evidence. It's just a way to justify their lack of results or justify their belief in the superiority of their training methods.

Anyway, this is so off topic now. Dave, why don't you start another thread so you can whip it out and get the tape measure. While your at it, find some real old guys in their 60's and 70's. 57 isn't that old anymore. You talk like you've got a foot in the grave already.

I wonder why every thread that Dave comments on becomes about Dave? He sure must be fun at a party.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Dev, do you know if Pierre keeps a similar number of runs and just drops the volume or does he cut out the runs in his bike/swim weeks? I would think it makes sense to keep at 5-6 days a week and just drop to shorter runs.

I'm jealous of the amount of time you have to train ! With a 1yo, 3yo busy job and wife to keep happy too, I'm afraid I have to find a clever way to fit it all in.

This is getting closer to what may actually be possible, just wish I could better translate it to paper. Repeatable weeks, with the occasional big training week when time allows, a run focus week or bike focus week worked in with some regularity, and straight up days off work dedicated to long training days when the A race approaches. I imagine for those who have already achieved Kona, they can look at training through a bit different prism. Thanks for the input.