Personally I would be greatly annoyed.

Ah, good old wildflower

I'm not a particularly religious person, in fact not at all. I've done that race 5X and can't ever remember being bothered by it. Just go about your business, setting up transition, etc.. That RD runs a pretty good race, if he wants to pray before it, more power to him, doesn't bother me if it's broadcasted. I suppose if you want a jewish or muslim prayer, go to a race RD'd by someone of that religion?

ETA however that I am greatly annoyed that these religious leanings spelled the end of the mile 4 aid station. Where coeds were naked, or at least topless. Yup, this religious race used to have the best run aid station ever.

Seriously, what's the issue to get your panties in a bunch?

I assume you mean Wildflower? Not to make things relative in terms of how you felt, but the opening invocation was super light compared to other public event invocations I get throughout the San Joaquin Valley that I attend on behalf of my job, representing my employer (a State institution). Perhaps I'm numb to it, but the signs are pretty small, and the invocation pretty general. While it was a USAT sanctioned event, it's also a privately funded and hosted one (though in a park). I can see how it may slight those of a non-christian denomination, but it's a private event and I just ignore the small religious overtones that comes with participating in it.

I may be off base in terms of funding, etc., but I feel this one has a light hand in terms of religious messaging

At all races, when they play the Star Spangled Banner I recite (out loud) the Lord's Prayer instead. It confuses the [heck] out of everyone.

And if I'm carded for drafting, instead of going to the penalty tent I simply do 5 Hail Mary's on my rosary beads and call it good.

To me, it is no more annoying than the national anthem - which is to say I find it quite a nuisance, but recognize that others may feel rather differently. In fact, it is not something that would make me not attend a race, but it may actually factor into religious people's decision as to what race to participate in.

That being said, why do we have to all stand around and listen to a national anthem for every sporting event out there? It feels rather nationalistic. I do find it has its place in international competition (i.e. international soccer games, olympic games, etc), but not in this setting.

In closing: Matthew 6:5

I live the bible belt of the south, and as an atheist, this is something that has been on my mind for quite some time. I have no problem with people praying or doing whatever they want to before races, but I share your view of it should be seperate. I don't raise a stink about it outside of bitching to my wife (who is a christian) in the car on the way home.

You can imagine where I live it is before pretty much EVERYTHING...5ks, sprints, olys, halves, fulls, fun runs, walks, obstacle course, bike races, bike rides, swims, I mean everything.

IMO I find it to be somewhat exclusionary of others.

I just use that time to get into my happy place before unleashing the fury.

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

It was Wildflower. First time doing it so not sure if it is something new or not, but the aid stations seemed tame compared to the stories I've heard, plus my sister (oooff) used to be one of those girls unfortunately...

I think my panties were in a bunch over the lack of naked-ness ;) and also just kind of shocked to it. Race however was really well run, everything I thought went smoothly except for the way back up the hill after, but then again I had my own beverages to partake in and didn't festival it up as many I'm sure did. I guess growing up not in a religious household at all, just kind of shocked me. Who knows.

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Beyond Aero

"Grind it til' you find it..."

I don't think your out of line at all, my take on it is this....
If the prayer was general in nature, wishing me a safe race....I'd say thank you for the kind words....I'm ok with that.
Anything more devout than that, may walk the line of being offensive, unless of course, it's my Rabbi delivering the prayer :)

I would definitely be greatly annoyed by a race that forces me to participate or have to listen to anything religious without upfront warning or opportunity to escape from it. It is very disrespectful towards anyone with no or a different religion. For me personally, it would be totally unacceptable and I would never sign up for a race if I would have known this upfront. Or I would never do the race again if there is suddenly some religious event that is forced upon me. And I'd definitely go to USAT and file a complaint about it.

People are free to chose whether they want religion yes / no, and if so, which one. But when you are there for a triathlon, you should not be getting some religion shoved down your throat.

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Don't forget to attack!

Did it harm you Ezra? Remember you live in America. The race director is openly and unapologetically Christian. He has every right too since its his race.

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Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

Fair enough... but.... what year did your sister volunteer there???? ;)

ETA - MY PT went to Cal Poly, as did his sister. A client was showing him a pic from triathlon mag, of the aid station, girls shown from the back, clearly no top. One of whom was his sister.....

I'm 59 and not all that great of a swimmer so I don't mind it so much.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Interesting to read as someone posted something on our tri club's facebook page about what a great race Wildflower is (nothing religion related). But hearing this is enough for me to not even consider racing Wildflower (whereas before it was more of a 'maybe next year' sorta thing).

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

It annoys me greatly and seems rather unconstitutional. But then again, our Supreme disagreed today:

Legislative Prayer Backed in U.S. Supreme Court Ruling
http://www.bloomberg.com/...me-court-ruling.html

Hmmm, maybe I'm just a less offensible kinda guy, but i really don't get this line of thinking. Don't get me wrong, a less crowded transition is a good thing. But I can't imagine being so offended by hearing a prayer from someone else's religion that I'd stay away from such an iconic race.... Like I've said, i've done it a bunch and think i've heard it once or twice? Not like they shove a communion wafer down your throat in T1 or anything

Yup. I'm not going to be doing that race.

How's it unconstitutional as a private event? I don't even like the idea of having the prayer, but it wouldn't stop me from doing this race if I get the chance and that's all there is to it.

If I wanted a fairy tale I would go and watch Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

It doesn't fit with my ideology. It seems it is not done in a way it provides equal opportunities to all religions to have their say... only one gets preferential treatment with no opportunity to avoid it.

Say this happens at the beginning of a race, there's a prayer and since I am an atheist, i chose not to listen and continue the conversation I was having with my other atheist friend. Would it be offensive to the prayer people? Or would I have to be quiet and essentially have my freedom of speech rights taken away from me under social pressure?

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

Cobble--It's annoying (and I am Christian!), but if you're going to be all that bothered by it, then do the rest of us that go to WF frequently a favor and don't. Especially if you're going to write USAT and all that shizz...spare the rest of the trouble of potentially being near you.

Ezra--I'm sure this weekend was par for the course. I just tune it out and/or let it be a quieter moment to get a bit zen before the race. How'd the race go? I'm expecting my email about it! :)

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I've been there for the prayer and talked to my friends throughout No one said anything to me.

You are asking if you are out of line.

My opinion: yes

All religions are exclusionary, divisive and intolerant of those who don't believe in their particular myth. It's mission to explicitly to separate the flock for the final days.

Oh sorry, I thought I was on the American Atheist website.

I totally understand the position that it’s their event and they can run it whatever they want, and if I don't like it I can certainly not go.

That said, its a USAT sanctioned event, and my guess is USAT would like to be welcoming to people of all religions. When you bias in favor of one religion, how are the rest of the non-Christians there who have to listen to this loud prayer with everyone around them bowing their heads supposed to feel? It's the subtle (and not-so-subtle) things like this that turns people off to organization and groups that hold different religious beliefs. Religion is obviously pretty unique (legally and philosophically) than other issues.

If they want to have Christian prayers and signs at an event, then by all means go ahead, but I think they should drop the USAT designation and maybe let people know ahead of time.

Never let extraneous stuff affect your race preparation. This is a non issue for me.

The national passtime: being offended and/or being a victim. The two are closely related.

It's a private event. All sorts of private events are held in public spaces, so there doesn't seem to be any constitutional problem to me (unlike today's Supreme Court ruling).

That said, overt expressions of religion like that, with a slightly "captive" audience, annoy me. My college (a private college) pulled stuff like that from time to time and it pissed me off - we'd go to an event that had nothing to do with religion, and then there would be some religious element.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

On the supreme court case, just thought I'd point out that that case was prayer before legislative sessions, and the question was whether a town hall meeting with citizens present counts as a legislative session. Interesting case, but pretty different scenario than being discussed here.

Well do you want those who feel offended to stand up for themselves, and fight instead of feeling offended without doing something about it? Are you willing to accept my freedom of speech that will be used to prove why your religion is wrong and you are stupid?

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

Didn't get the cooties? The gay guy next to you in transition convert ya? Of course not.... Yer a big boy accept others differences and beliefs and move on... Pre race pee takes more time... (All pink)

Jeff.

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You can't fix stupid ..

Let me guess: you're a white man who makes a pretty good living, and comes from a Judeo-Christian background, even if you don't practice religion.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

If only my Jewish mother could see this she would be plotzing with joy at just how successful having Ezra over for Passover was. In all seriousness, I tend to agree with Justin on this one. Swing your arms as long as you don't hit me. It's a private organization so they can do whatever they want. If it offends enough people to a certain degree (i.e., in some people's minds if a prayer over the loud speaker is "hitting them") then they don't have to do this race, and enough people feel that way, then perhaps the RD would reconsider. At the end of the day the if the spirit of the prayer is for a safe race and to be thankful for the ability to race, I don't really care if it is JC, Allah, or Moses, the overarching message is positive. They didn't force anyone to sing along, did they?

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Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

wow.... i didn't realize the # of triathletes who are going to hell.

I hate religion, but love the Lord. With that said, i don't know how it can be offensive for someone to pray, aka hope you have a safe race. I have muslim friends who say they pray foe me. I don't believe what they do, but appreciate they care enough for me to take time to pray for me. This country was founded on God and people seem to be getting a little sensitive. Just my 2 cents which usually aren't worth a penny more.

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Ryan
Practical Coaching

Ah, the wildflower prayer. One year in the late '90s the CU (University of Colorado) didn't realize the prayer was going on while we were in the water waiting to take off. We chose that moment for a rousing rendition of the Unnofficial CU fight song... Which ends with a loud "F 'em up, F 'em up, Go CU". We were asked to come up with a different song for the next year. Best prayer moment ever.

I do think i remember your sister at the aid station though... :)

J

We play the national anthem to remind ourselves of the sacrifice of those who have given us the freedom and ability to enjoy the event, we all should every day take a moment to thank those who serve and make enormous sacrifices daily to protect our very blessed way of life. It may be nationalistic but we are in a country which has stability on all levels to let triathlon thrive, we owe much of that stability to those over the years who have given up everything. If you have served or know people who have served you will know the national anthem is very important and i think everybody should at least take a moment of silent gratitude.

Not sure where you're objecting to me. My point was more in-line with what link5485 wrote. I don't care for the prayer stuff at the beginning at all (it's obnoxious), but anyone who's going to be so sufficiently bothered by it that they're scratching a well-run and well-regarded race off their list should just not go. Especially if they're the type that feels a compunction to write USAT about it.

Newsflash! It's the worst kept secret ever, and if USAT cared they'd have long, long, long since come down on TriCalifornia for all the religious messages.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

Unacceptable.

I'll add this to the list of races—along w/ any WTC event—which i'll never pay money to do.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Usually if I don't like something, I don't pay it much attention. It's disappointing to read many of the comments here.

Unconstitutional... Really? Re-read that one for us.

I'm a product of a military family and couldn't agree more with this comment. You don't really have to agree with the playing of the National Anthem, but in my mind, you could at least show those that served the respect they deserve.

Was the prayer before Wildflower 3 hours long? I can't believe someone would be so offended over something that probably lasted 30 seconds. Again if you don't agree with it, ignore it. The same freedom of speech being used to bitch here was used on that prayer. Must have been one of those "hellfire and brimstone" kind of pastors condeming all the sinners

Usually followed by a D after their party affiliation.

I get unsettled around delusional people too.

It does not belong.
If you need to pray, pray in your room before you race.

I'm an Atheist. General prayer at a sporting event does not bother me in the least. In fact, I'm glad that a large number of people find comfort in their respective beliefs. Now, I have heard a couple of prayers that go a bit too far, but they have been few and far between. I don't get it why people get so upset when the majority of people at an event express their thankfulness for what they feel their god has given them. Big f'n deal.

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I totally understand the idea of "if you don't like it don't go". And for me the prayer itself is not the issue - the race organizers can do whatever they damn well please, nothing in the constitution says I can't hold a religious race.

The point is this is a USAT event. As far as I know, USAT doesn't affiliate with or endorse any religion, and accepts people of all faiths and non-believers. I personally expect the USAT to ensure races are not religious in nature. Encouraging everyone to pray and then saying a prayer over the loud speaker, along with signs everywhere ("accept Jesus as your savior"), makes it a religious race, even if relatively mild. Thus it should not be a USAT event, or they drop the religious stuff. If USAT is OK with races being religious in nature, then they should say so and some people might re-think their membership/participation.

And it would be nice if the organizers let people know ahead of time about the religious nature of it, even if it is relatively limited. Let participants make up their own mind about what they think is "limited" or what is OK to do at a race and what isn't.

Oh I love a sing along...

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You can't fix stupid ..

Prayer and the national anthem before races annoy me too. It's a gross mix of jingoism and exclusionary/hateful religious rhetoric

If you want to say something before a race say a short non-denominational wish for a safe race and safe travels home. No need to drag deities into it

It annoys me a lot. Most of the people preaching 'tolerance' would be completely offended if it was a muslim prayer, or a prayer to the mighty wiccan spirit. I was 'blessed' at the start of the Tour of the Gila last week and I'm pretty sure it cost me the race. Because god hates me.

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Jesus (pun intended) how about arguing on the facts. Signs "everywhere saying Jesus is your savior"??? If you had actually done the race and saw that you have a basis to argue it. But you've never been. Don't just make stuff up to support an argument

As for USAT they could give two shits if an rd offers a prayer. Has nothing to do with their charter

And I gotta say if ones belief system, be it Christian atheist or whatever is so fragile that it's threatened by a public display of someone else's belief system, maybe they oughtta rethink those beliefs

So irritating.

I did a race a few weeks ago where this dude droned on dropping "thees and thous and thines" like they were popcorn. Sounded utterly idiotic.

Start dropping those lines in Hebrew or Aramaic or something if you want to be legit. Regurgitating crap from 17th century England is just ignorant.

But anyway, I find public prayer before a race to be irritating and archaic. Pray to yourself; don't subject every one else to your delusion.

I find the national anthem annoying, too, but at least there's some practical unification/nationalism reasoning behind it. I do find it humorous that so many people put their hand on their hearts as if they're pledging, though.

I'd wager this is a pretty accurate statement.

As for the national anthem, it is about a lot more than the military and those who have served.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

And which god do you think it was founded upon, exactly?

^^This. I mean seriously, it isn't like they called you a dork and insulted your mother, they asked a deity they believe in to protect you during the race and thanked him for giving everyone the opportunity to be there. If that passes for offensive these days then I give up trying to figure out how to be polite... If you don't believe in it or agree then just go about your business. It is exactly the same as when you are someplace where they play music you don't like, sometimes the words might not jive with your beliefs but normally you either tune it out or move away from the speakers a bit.

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Powertap / Cycleops / Saris

I just ignore it just as I do the national anthem. Just continue setting up t-area or do a swim warm-up.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

So to recap, for maybe 30 seconds you had to listen to something that probably had generally uplifting content, wishing everyone a good safe race and giving thanks for the health and ability to such an event. Oh the horror...you poor thing.

As for anyone who has a problem with the national anthem...there are other options as to where you can live...consider exercising those options!

Wow, who knew this many SlowTwitchers were such a sensitive bunch and so easily annoyed. If a group--including the race director--want to offer a pre-race prayer to the sun god, who cares. If they're wrong, it doesn't hurt me. If they are right, maybe I'll get a little spritual intervention. It you want to partake, jump in. If not, ignore it. Gosh, that's really hard.

Lighten up, Francis.

Personally, I hate religion. I think all religions that I'm aware of at least, are little more than a crutch for the weak of mind.

That's just my opinion, and I'm allowed my own opinion. I accept that my godless view of reality could be wrong (he may exist, and just be hiding really really well). IF there is a god, then I'm not sure which religion he might be the leader of.

Just as I expect people to allow me to have my opinion, I allow them to have theirs also. One of us is right, and one is wrong. While I believe I'm right, I do accept the remote possibility that I'm not.

While I don't pray (to any god) I accept that others do. If they choose to pray for positive outcomes (even if it's just at a tri), then so be it.

I don't however think that a public prayer before a race is particularly appropriate. I particularly think that because generally the public prayers are generally single religion prayers. If we think prayers before a race are a good idea, let's have all the religions represented.

If allowing all religions the time for pre race prayer seems silly (and it does to me) then how should we fairly choose the religion? Should that be a question on the entry form? "Which prerace prayer would you prefer?" and allow a prayer from every religion that wanted one? How about athiests and agnostics? What should we do with our prayer minute?

And if you think only one religion should be having pre-race prayers, wasn't the good ol US of A founded on religious freedom? How come we're all getting so worked up these days with people of assorted religions wanting their fair share of time/consideration in religiously free USA?

Lets worry about Cancer, jobs, poverty, the environment or so many other things that are actually important, than a prayer of any denomination, before a race.

Me? I'd be pissed off if there was a pre-race prayer of any or all religions. I wouldn't bitch about it, but I wouldn't like it. I also would likely look for non religious races to enter next time.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

That's the ringer, yeah? How does one refute such a logical, cogent statement?

I honestly believe that a person who thinks as you do has very little interaction with the mind-numbingly devout Christians that many of us encounter on a daily basis.

Let me assure you that if someone busted out a public prayer to a sun god, the local media would start rolling in because there would be utter chaos.

As a religious person this bothers me. I came to race, not pledge my support to country or some other guys "god." The reason the anthem bothers me is everyone makes such a big deal about leaving helmets on, taking them off, helmets over hearts, etc, etc. Just get on with the race so I can get on with winning.

All of those, who think that a small bit of christian propaganda in the beginning of Wildflower is cool, should ask themselves - would they be ok with a short Muslim prayer added in the beginning of the said event? Ya, did not think so.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

you swim with a helmet?

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

In my case, you've assumed wrongly. You have no idea about what you write.

It's a prayer, not pornography. Suck it up buttercup.

  




Actually, you're quite wrong. There are lots of bible thumpers around me, especially mormons. They knock on my door with their pitch fairly frequently. I was at a private dinner the other night and the host insisted on a pre-dinner prayer blessing. I'm not religious, but it impacted me exactly zero to sit quietly for a moment or two. It could have been a prayer to Allah (I've sat through them travelling in Asia) but it doesn't bother me. Ditto for a pre-race prayer. The concepts are called tolerance and acceptance. If it makes them happy and doesn't hurt me, what do I care? Bring on the prayers. Just stay right on the bike.

If that is what the RD wanted to do that would be fine.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Guess it depends on where you live.

Where I live a group of "people" committed arson, vandalism, intimidation, and even threw out a bomb threat in order to stop a mosque being built in their community.

There can be quite a bit of anti-Muslim sentiment in the air.

No problem here

But nice try

I'm first in line and I think I can even smell smoke!

(thankfully I'm actually agnostic so I'm not worried about the line above actually coming true)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Just who the hell is this DORK character anyway?!

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Didn't you "retire"? Take the tri away from tridork and all you have left is dork.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I normally run into this more at road races and crits

Yeah, I might have to take the Tri away but as I refer to the high priestess at home as TriSpouse, and she's never done a tri, I might just have a precendent for keeping the Tri afterall :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Yea, I was there, and you're missing the point. It doesn't matter which phrase from the Bible it was (I was paraphrasing, didn't commit it to memory), it's that any Bible phrases were used in a USAT event.

And maybe you're right about USAT, maybe they don't care. I don't know, but I think they should if they want to be a truly open organization. Keep all USAT races neutral and any religious stuff on the side / separate, not only solves this relatively small issue but potentially more thorny ones (like should bashing of other religions be allowed in the convocation? should race organizers allow evangelizers along the trail? can someone put signs along the trail denouncing Jesus?...). Where does USAT draw the line?

Call me a heathen, but it just seems totally unnecessary to bring religion into something like this in any way.

stop doing them if it offends thee.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

you people who are so offended by it need to make it an issue with USAT. Let us know how it works out. I'll be here awaiting your report.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Triathlon, as all sports, to me, is about bringing people of different backgrounds together to enjoy a shared passion.

I'm with others on this....if it's a moment of reflection, thanks, and well-wishes for a safe race...no problem. Specific references to faith....I do not think they bring people together.

In any case, 95% of my races are in Asia...if they started burning ghost money and joss sticks before the race, I'd get annoyed the smoke was interfering in my performance! Thankfully, no anthems, no prayers, no comments other than "GO!." Never did understand the need to play national anthems before playing a game!

'Murica...Love it or leave it!!, FOOK YEAH!!!!

(Did I need the pink font?)

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I have never done a triathlon where a prayer meeting was put on by the organizers but I have seen a group of believers praying together before the race. I'm not religious but say live and let live if they wish to do the prayer thing for them, but I only hope they're praying for a safe race race for all and not for age group wins.

LOL. Yeah, kind of like something from the Onion.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Places like Lake Placid use a lot of church volunteers, part of the community you'll be going through and their aid stations. A small price to pay for their support. They mean well. The anthem just usually signifies the start for me. At least the American anthem is English only. The Canadyun anthem is effed up with French and no one knows it or cares to regurgitate that part of it so it always is an abortion to suffer through.

I think this applies here as well.

race director can do what he/she wants.
don't like the religious ones, dont' do them.
my favorite duathlons in texas are run by a slightly obnoxiously religious race director.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Be the fast, polite, cheerful atheist, set a good example. =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

You took this entirely wrong...I am not "love it or leave it" guy. No one loves everything about anything...however, I am a respect guy! The national anthem represents sacrifices made by many so that we could have our freedom. If you cant respect that for less than 60 seconds while the national anthem is played... then yes, you should look to exercise your freedom to leave. I don't by any means agree with a lot of what happens in our country, however I respect the freedom I have to make my own choices to prosper! The " 'Murica" crap implies a redneck mindless mentality.

oxymoron?

I'm pretty cheerful

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Jumpin' Jesus Christ! This again?

Oy vey! It's meshuggeneh.

Namaste-

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float , hammer , and jog

It's proper etiquette to place your hand over your heart during the playing of the National Anthem.

[quoteThe point is this is a USAT event. As far as I know, USAT doesn't affiliate with or endorse any religion, and accepts people of all faiths and non-believers. I personally expect the USAT to ensure races are not religious in nature. Encouraging everyone to pray and then saying a prayer over the loud speaker, along with signs everywhere ("accept Jesus as your savior"), makes it a religious race, even if relatively mild. Thus it should not be a USAT event, or they drop the religious stuff. If USAT is OK with races being religious in nature, then they should say so and some people might re-think their membership/participation.
][/quote]
Why do you think this is a USAT Event?

The RD chose to sanction (insure the race, follow a general set of competition/safety rules and report the results back to USAT for the highly coveted ranking points).
USAT only puts on a handful of races, the rest are privately operated.

We all know that USAT has the abundance of resources to check on every sanctioned race out there to ensure (even the self-officiated ones) the safety rules are being followed then once that is done, they'll make sure all the competition rules are being followed and fairly enforced. Then with their spare time, they'll make sure you aren't offended by a prayer.

Because the RD had a prayer before the race started, that made the race "religious in nature"; seriously???

If we got rid of religion, weapons sales would plummet. What in the world would we do instead?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Yes, seriously.

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

If I lose, it was God's will! Can't train for that!

All seriousness: no. Just because I paid an entry fee doesn't entitle me to change the whole atmosphere of the race. I've long ridden a road race with a Chippewa blessing of the bikes and thought it was pretty cool that they got so involved in the culture surrounding our little niche sport. It was typically those religious persons (both Christian Chippewas and polytheistic ones) who gave the most effort to be great volunteers year in and year out.

If you can read the signs on the road, you're not far enough in the pain cave.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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I started wailing the blues when the doctor whacked my bottom on the day I was born.

I'm surprised to see such negative response to this because there is really no harm caused by this, so I guess I fall in the camp who has no problem with it. I also wouldn't be upset if the prayer was from a religion I'm not part of. For all the talk about unethical behavior in races (doping, drafting, etc) I think it makes sense to have a moment pre-race to acknowledge the authority of a higher figure than our own self-interest in racing. Not everyone will take it this way, but if the responses are indicative of people's feelings about public prayer then I say more than ever some people here need to understand that the race isn't all about you.

While on the surface such prayers appear noble, altruistic, and good, there is an underlying tone of exclusion for those who do not believe. It is this, along with the implied proselytizing, that offends people.

Totally your choice and your right how you interpret it. I will never claim to know what anyone else is thinking, but to an outsider your comment would seem to simply be taking the most negative viewpoint possible. I guess I simply tend to look a things positively as I have never achieved anything in life by looking at the negative.

Religion has no place anywhere except at their place of worship, their home or specific events where a church or whatever is the sponsor.

Actually .... I take that back ........... religion has no place anywhere ..............

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

So you paint with a rather broad brush. I suggest you work on your bigottry by getting out and meeting a few more people who are different from yourself. Traveling is great recreation.

Easy solution. both pay attention to it. Your not forced to participate. Though IMO it's respectful to at least remain silent, rather than continue conversation with friends.

Freedom of religion is intended IMO, to be primary about tolerance and allowing others to practice, and separating church and state, rather than about giving equal opportunities in all public forums and protecting everyone's fragile belief structures.

I'm in the midwest. I'd say that a good 3/4 of the races I participate in have a prayer before the start. I'd say most seem to appreciate and participate in it. Everyone seems to at least respect it and remain silent. Races can be dangerous. People have died. It's a bit arrogant and ignorant to think that it couldn't possible happen to you. It won't hurt to prepare yourself for the end, prepare your soul or whatever you think happens after you get your ticket punched. It's also worth reminding yourself how lucky you are to be able to compete, as there are plenty of folks that are physically unable to do so.... and not by choice.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Wow - and here I thought that atheists were generally intelligent, reasonable people, but this thread leads me to believe that a lot of them are just as fucked up as the other end of the religion spectrum.


/SMH

I agree.

I wouldn't put my self in the full atheist category, but strongly in the religion as we know it is messed up, when I participate in an event: triathlon, running race, swim meet, family dinner, or other event that includes an opening prayer - I respect the freedom that they have to believe what they believe, and the freedom I have to believe what I believe. I bow my head, keep my mouth shut and think about how fortunate I am to be alive, be where I am today, and to live in a place that for the most part encourages diversity and tolerance.

Same here ^^^^. But doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'm not a pure atheist either. More along the agnostic road. And I don't push any agenda. My parents are very religious (but not pushy about it at all) and gave us each the option to go or not as we became teenagers. Telling that all 4 of their sons opted out of religion as soon as the choice became available.

While the second comment I made was obviously snarky, I am becoming more firmly in the camp that religion should just go away ...... it certainly has its merits for keeping people in line (and supporting the arts and such in the middle ages), but anyone with even a moderate level of intelligence should be questioning any belief in some sort of higher power having any single care about what a person does.

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

What IS an atheist?
"a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."
It describes nothing more about their character than that.

I don't think that the USAT has taken any stance on religion in races. They neither permit nor discourage. They are not a government entity.

USAT also doesn't take a stance on what kind of music is at a race. I would find this thread equally hilarious if the theme were changed to "Country Music at Races: Your Thoughts". Now, personally, I'm not a fan of either country music nor religion at races, but I'm certainly not holding the USAT accountable for either.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Did the prayer include anything about praying for only the Christians in the race? Or was it the RDs prayer based on his beliefs to ask for safety for everyone at the race. If someone wishes me a safe and fun race, I say thanks, regardless of race, religion, or preference.

If it was a Muslim prayer and it mentioned "harm infidels", I would take offense. But if they prayed to keep everyone safe (specifically mentioning infidels or not) I would say thanks. Same as if it were a Jewish prayer and they mentioned keeping the everyone safe (Gentiles too). I would say thanks.

If it is an agnostic race with no prayer, I say a silent prayer for everyone to have a safe race.

Not sure how having other people say good things for you, based on their beliefs, could be harmful to you.

If you infer shame from a well wish, then I would think you are reading to much into the prayer. But I don't live in your shoes, nor have I walked in them.

I will say a prayer for you to have a safe race at your next event. I do not require you to accept or appreciate the act. I just hope, and pray, that you do.

As I said, the national anthem is about a lot more than those who made sacrifices.

And if you can show me where I said ANYTHING about not respecting the national anthem, that would be great.

In the meantime, please spare me "feel free to leave" cr@p...which, by the way, is pretty much a mindless mentality.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

^^Yes. This.^^

Many are just the flip side of the same coin....holding just as passionately to their beliefs and dismissing those who don't agree. Doesn't necessarily matter what the belief is, just in how they express and defend it.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Amen x2 at 66

I raced the Carolina Half here in Charlotte this past weekend. Half way through the bike course, outside a tiny country church were a bunch of fat church guys holding up signs saying "YOU ARE BEING PRAYED FOR". I yelled "THANKS!" and was genuinely grateful. If someone wants to pray for me, no matter what religion they subscribe to, I'm genuinely grateful. It's such a kind thing to do. This is what the race director at Wildflower was doing for you.

As a praying person myself, I am continually praying for others racing out on the same course I am; protection from cars, help getting up that huge run hill, help not feeling as crappy as I am, etc. If you don't want me praying for you, tough, I'm going to do it anyways. :)

If the race director wants prayer, or not, I wouldn't hold it against them. The RD's primary concern is the well being of the race. If he subscribes to prayer actually working in real life (which I can attest to on so many occasions), it would be foolish and wrong for him to NOT pray over his race. No one forces anyone to bow their heads and pray. It may not be a religiously affiliated race, but this is a religiously affiliated world, so don't be so sensitive, or easily offended, or worry that other people might be. It's out of a genuine kindness that people would pray for you, you certainly don't deserve it.

I apologize, I mistook your jargon of "'Murica...Love it or leave it!!, FOOK YEAH!!!!" and the quote about wondering if you needed the pink as some sort of distaste for national anthem. I am sorry if I misunderstood your sentiment.

Do you think praying over the loudspeaker works better with the big guy than a silent prayer?

It never really bothers me, but I do think it's awkward. It would be like the owner of a restaurant coming to my table and asking me to join them in the blessing before my food arrives. Sure they can, and sure I don't have to come back, but it's just a little awkward. Now if I was in someone's house as a guest, I wouldn't think twice about them saying the blessing before we share a meal.

Agreed. I think they open it up to all races, religions and creeds, etc. If someone wants to pray for me then that's fine, I personally don't mind, but I can easily see how others can quickly be offended. Again more of a question of have people seen this before at races and what are their reactions to it. Also USAT by-laws state they are open to all religions, creeds, races, etc. so having one predominantly displayed at a USAT sanctioned race threw me. I respectfully listened and went about my day, no harm no foul, just made me go hmmm. I won't be writing USAT to complain, I was more asking the internet for their thoughts on this. Obviously I am new to the internet.

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Beyond Aero

"Grind it til' you find it..."

As an atheist who grew up in a family of speaking-in-tongues evangelicals, I generally agree with your first paragraph. Assuming, that is, that they're praying for my general well-being. I do get a little bothered when someone says they are praying for my soul, and things along those lines. In my mind it's the equivalent of me saying to someone that they are in my thoughts.

I also agree with what was said above by someone, that this isn't actually a USAT thing. Sure, they would probably like to have their races be all-inclusive (qualifications aside), but unless races start saying you can only race if you're born-again or something, I doubt they will, or should, step in.

That said, I don't feel that a sectarian prayer should be a part of what is ostensibly a secular event. It is quite literally the equivalent of having a race and saying something like "we're happy that everyone is here to race, especially straight people, because we believe you're lifestyle is best."

Would a refuse to do a race because of something like that? I have only had one race (at least that I can remember) that had a definitively sectarian pre-race prayer, but I haven't been back to that for logistical reasons. I'm not sure that I'd attend it again, however.

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Yes, I know it's grammatically incorrect. Blame AOL and their 90s-era character limits.
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I was going to say that I am about as anti-religion as you can be and I pretty much just ignore prayers at public events. But this is too far. They can have their religion but don't mess with our boobs.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

OMG someone said a prayer!!!! Stand and fight!! I'M A VICTIM!!!!!!!! I'll need decades of counseling because I had to endure the trauma of listening to someone pray for safety, fair competition and strength to all during an athletic event. My rights have been violated!!!! Where is my lawyer? Where is a journalist to whom I can relay my pitiful story of abuse and deep emotional suffering? I'll need to be compensated for all of this, assuming I don't die from the trauma.

If you are agnostic as you claim and not atheist, then you would not have an agenda. You cannot say that religion has no place because you simply don't know if atheism or theism is right. Maybe religion does have its place, according to your agnostic view.

I don't see who it would hurt for a prayer to be said before a race.

Edited to add : Unless the prayer goes off on some sort of tangent that condemns others or for others to change there ways. I am betting the prayer did nothing like this. It probably went more along the lines of hoping everyone remains safe.

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I ran. I ran until my muscles burned and my veins pumped battery acid. Then I ran some more.

I'm an atheist. Prayers don't bother me. I tend to ignore them. I also don't feel the need to stop and stand quietly while someone prays. I continue whatever I was doing. This tends to offend people who pray. Not something I care about.

Sadly, I've long since come to the conclusion that the publicly displayed belief structure choose by an individual, is a poor indicator of the behaviors and traits they posses, including open mindedness, morality, greed, honesty and corruptibility.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

All religions are exclusionary, divisive and intolerant of those who don't believe in their particular myth. It's mission to explicitly to separate the flock for the final days.

There are a couple very popular ones (Buddhist and Hindu come to mind) that are not dogmatic and intolerant, but rather experiential and philosophical.

Really? My son is career Army. Going on his 4th tour in a war. I have never equated the national anthem as expressing gratitude for his service. It is a national anthem. Not a memorial song.

If the biggest complaint that you have with a race is that they said a prayer over a loudspeaker, or stopped for the national anthem, then I'd say it's a pretty great race.

Seriously, when did we all get so uber-sensitive? Isn't the whole point of triathlon succeeding through suffering?

The Supreme Court thinks it's just fine to collapse the separation of church and state,

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/...e_churches050218.php

So there's not much hope of keeping religion out of races..
My objection is as Ed says, "Corporate prayer is meaningless if it does not invoke the beliefs of the community for which it is offered."
A broadcast prayer at races either:
1. assumes we are all the same faith, which betrays the ideals of our founders and is profoundly anti-American (in the special USA sense); or
2. is meaningless prattle, a devaluation of the faith it purports to be expressing, which is offensive to the members of that faith.
As Jesus taught his followers, Matthew 6:5 as noted above,
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words."

I still have the US History study paper for my Naturalization Civics Test, which says,
"Freedom of Religion
The right for people to choose how to worship or to not worship at all."
If prayer is not worship, then it is nothing at all.

Luckily as Dahlia Lithwick says at Slate, "you are free to sit quietly and give thanks that you still live in a free country. Amen."
Guess that's the best we can do in our fallen days..

Taoism too.

Half way through the run at my first IM, I saw Jesus in the road aggregate as I bent over to stretch.

Funny, so being offended and playing victim is not OK to you, but doing something about it is not OK either. Just like I expected. Because if I want to do something about it, that makes you the victim... right?

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

We had a prayer at the Lincoln Marathon on Sunday. Funny thing is that more people were reverent during the prayer than the national anthem. I like both!

You know there's this things that has shown many things of the bible and religion to be false. Can't remember the name of it... Ah I remember! 'Science' is the word I was looking for.

Prayers in public piss me off because they put the responsibility into the unknown to not have to do something about it. When I do a race, I am lucky to be racing, and I wish myself and all the other competitors, volunteers etc a safe race. I won't need to pray to have a safe race (statistics will tell you prayer won't impact the outcome), but what I CAN do is to have the right attitude to be safe myself and not do anything stupid. Don't rush, don't be an idiot, don't be a dick, and expect the unexpected. And hope that others display the same attitude instead of relying on a god to protect them. I fully accept my responsibility. Just like I accept that praying for a friend who lost a family member is gonna do jack shit, but taking time and being there when he needs me in whichever way that would be will be many times more helpful. Those are the choices I make - not going to hide behind prayer so I can justify my excuses why I didn't do it right...

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_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

I did this race several years ago and do not remember any prayers in the beginning. I might have been concentrating on other things or maybe I already had my earplugs in so couldn't hear anything either way.

I am not religious at all but I would not hold this against a race, especially a well run and beautiful race like Wildflower.

I recommend this race to anyone, of any religion.

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Max

When I do a race, I am lucky to be racing, and I wish myself and all the other competitors, volunteers etc a safe race. I won't need to pray to have a safe race (statistics will tell you prayer won't impact the outcome)

You'll love this Carlin vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo

You sound easily pissed off if someone else praying pisses you off. I just don't see any reason to get upset or offended about a prayer, whether you believe in it or not.

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I ran. I ran until my muscles burned and my veins pumped battery acid. Then I ran some more.

Impossible. The transition area Wildflower Christian Militia Guard must have just missed you. Normally I think they hold your eyes open with toothpicks and force you to read bible passages.

next time I guess.

Are you part of the Christian Militia Guard ChrisM? I will have to look out for you next time I am there. :)

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Max

You need a little of this religion...third line would be a good place for you to begin...

As long as I have a right to ignore any prayers being said around me, I am okay with people mumbling anything they want. Its only when the religious dogmatics (i.e., most of the republican party, and certainly the chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court) start trying to get me to live under their rules that I spit the bit. However, standing quietly while others address their personal needs for spirituality do not make me feel excluded or isolated.

By the way, did anyone else see "Noah"? I think "Thor" was more believable.

How about Kama Sutra? That could delay the start of the race considerably, though.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Thank you for bringing this topic up. It has been on mind for quite some time now. Really didnt want to bring it up on here for fear of having people jump down my throat

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

No matter your beliefs, I'm pretty sure it was all with good intention....

Agreed. I don't think a prayer is a prayer if it has ill intents, however since I don't frequent prayer events I could be out of the loop of malicious intended prayers.

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_______________________
Beyond Aero

"Grind it til' you find it..."

When you are a race director, you get to decide who talks before the start.

So what are your thoughts? The internet is a safe place....

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_______________________
Beyond Aero

"Grind it til' you find it..."

Don't you think it is both arrogant and ignorant to assume that listening to someone pray to a god I don't believe in will prepare my soul for an after life I don't believe in?

This is the real issue. You can't fathom that I won't be better off for having listened to some guys prayer. I can't fathom why anyone would waste the time.....

If someone wants to get up and say, "glad we could all be here on race day, healthy and ready to race. Let's all be safe out there.". I can get on board with that.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Argh…..Thank You . If you want to pray, gather your friends and supporters. Management, rds and race officials have NO place in this.

Sadly , it seems to be becoming more and more common.

Certainly won't be worse off

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I ran. I ran until my muscles burned and my veins pumped battery acid. Then I ran some more.

Well said, +1. What's with this "Prepare for the end" shit? You die! Now if you are talking about making a will, getting your finances in order, making sure the pets are taken care of etc., I can buy into that but I think you should have done that well before the race.

And thanking some deity for a well run race ignores all the work that the RD and everyone else put into it. If you want to thank someone, thank them.

And finally, it is up to everyone to be safe and take responsibility for their own actions. Blaming a deity for good or bad takes away this responsibility.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

I was at Wildflower this weekend too. Yeah, that prayer thing was strange. But I just ignored it. I figured the owner must be into that stuff.

Yep.

I have no issues with it, and I'm an extremist Pastafarian living in the Bible belt. I just don't care what a RD does at his or her event. Some blessings are awesome.

Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74y88YuSJ8

Exactly. Couldn't any triathlete get behind a blessing that ended with "boogity boogity boogity"???

Nor will I be better off.

And thanking some deity for a well run race ignores all the work that the RD and everyone else put into it. If you want to thank someone, thank them. //

Keep in mind that it is the RD who is thanking God for the help to " Him and his crew", for the race, and the safe running of it and the safety of all those involved.If you choose not to participate, no problem, but he needs to do his thing. So as the owner and producer of the race he has every right to do this, and he feels it is his obligation to what he believes to do so. Let me ask all the haters here, if you go to a friends house for a meal and someone says grace, do you also get up and just leave? Boycott the meal? This is no different, this is Terry's house and you are a guest, treat him the same way you would your friends at their house for dinner.

Now if you are such a douche that you would indeed get up and walk out of a meal with friends because of grace, then by all means do not come to Wildflower. You would be more of a pain in the ass than those you decry, and probably a hippocrit to boot.

I think the distinction is that I am paying for the race. Like my example above, I would find it odd if the owner of a restaurant came to my table before my food arrived and asked me to join them in the blessing. Pre-race prayer is no big deal to me, but your comparison is off.

It's a private race, so they can hand out finisher's medals shaped like crosses if they want. At that point I'd vote with my $$$ and not do the race.

IMO they can have a moment of prayer, but don't expect me to stop what I'm doing to acknowledge/support it.

In the same way, I wouldn't expect a foreign national to put their hand on their heart during the US national anthem.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I never stop whatever I am doing because someone, even someone with a microphone, is praying. However, in my experience, the act of ignoring public prayer tends to piss off religious people.

I think the distinction is that I am paying for the race. //

Exactly!!! You chose to go to and pay for an event that has had prayer as its opening for at least 20 years. If a restaurant owner came by the table and thanked you for coming to his restaurant, and left you with a god bless, you're telling me you would just up and walk out? Sounds like you would not, as you said it was no big deal to you, but my response was really to the nimrods who would walk out. If it offends so much, just don't go. If you didn't know, suck it up just that one time and then don't go back. We all have to endure unpleasant things quietly in our life, on a daily basis sometimes, this should not be at or near the top of anyones list. All your internet fence courage in this thread just makes you look silly, and does not impress.(not you in particular, the nimrods)

Saying "God bless" is very different than them asking me to join them in the blessing. I get what you're saying, but the practice still fascinates me. I live and was raised in the South, so this is very ingrained around here. And, yes, I definitely stop what I'm doing during prayers. I think it's polite. Similarly, I would stand still during a foreign national anthem if racing in another country, assuming that was local custom. But, it is sort of selfish. As you pointed out, the RD has to do "his thing." That's fine with me, but don't doubt that there is at least a tacit expectation that the people in attendance stop and join them or stand silently. If there wasn't a communal expectation, why wouldn't the RD simply say a silent prayer the morning of the race? This is what I don't understand - what makes a prayer over the loudspeaker more effective than a silent prayer? If anything, it provides comfort to those people praying by doing so in the company of like-minded believers. Again, that's fine with me because I'm just so used to it. However, it is a little presumptuous to do so when you know that you aren't, to some degree, in the company of like-minded believers.

Hah, was it Wildflower.

I figure it's their prerogative. If it was too annoying and/or they put on a shitty race, then people would stop going. Complain, let them know, but they probably aren't going to change now, right?

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kelly dunleavy o'mara
@kellydomara

So essentially you're saying that if someone doesn't agree with your perspective on this particular issue, they should leave.

That's intolerant, belligerent, and pretty ignorant.

And pretty much the antithesis of everything that that "sacrifice" represents.

Is it? Why?

It's just a song. You're not pledging to anything. No one puts their hand over their heart for any other songs. What's the point of putting your hand over your heart ? How is that proper etiquette? (genuine question)

I seriously doubt Terry Davis gives a rat's ass that some people wouldn't come to his race because of this (and probably would prefer that they don't if they get so easily offended).

More boobies and beer for me!!!!!! (and naked college dudes as well for the ladies, but I'd never admit that I saw that....)

Come again?

All I did was relay a particular fact concerning an area of the US.

And from that you think I'm an uneducated (nope), untraveled (50+ countries and years of being an expat) bigot (not hardly)?

You're not really one for reading what's written, are you?

it's actually a law (although it's a "should" not a must)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301


U.S. Code › Title 36 › Subtitle I › Part A › Chapter 3 › § 301
[/url]36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
Current through Pub. L. 113-100. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

• US Code
• Notes
• Updates

prev | next
[/url](a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
[/url](b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
[/url](1) when the flag is displayed—
[/url](A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
[/url](B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
[/url](C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
[/url](2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

And such a silly term to begin with.

I don't consider myself an athiest so much as an antitheist. I refuse to label myself for having a naturally default (no god) position. Do we need labels for everything we don't believe in? Ghosts? Monsters? The yeti? It'd get redundant after a while.

Wow, not what I meant in the least. I was referencing those who had issue with playing the national anthem at an event. I simply said we are free and everyone in this country has options. If one has a problem with anthem of the country they inhabit, maybe they should exercise those options. That's all I meant...

OMG, someone criticized prayer!!! Stand and fight! Wait, no, don't stand in fight, just resort to internet snark!

Too bad. Isn't that was the religious people say when someone is pissed off about prayers? So, too bad for everyone. Move on.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the info.

Yet most of the time there's no flag displayed. And people are still standing with their hands over their heart.

+2! At least there were some bikini tops, but I wish they'd bring back the legendary aid station.

Of course the RD has the right to inject religion into the event, but that's not the point. Sure, I'm not going to skip it because of the religious messages he's pushing, but I'd like it better without, especially if it puts a damper on the fun.

I remember the prayer last time I did the race -- no big deal. What "offended" me more, and the reason I haven't returned, was the ridiculously crowded bike course and the overpriced camping.

Do you get flustered everytime you have to use cash? That In God We Trust can be pretty abusive.

You say that's not what you meant but you keep repeating it?

People have the right to have problems with it. That's the entire point. Getting pissed off about the pledge or the flag or the anthem and defiantly ignoring appropriate ceremony is also a result of the "sacrifice" that you keep going on about.

You seem to not understand that.

Formatting is funky, but section (2) would suggest you act the same whether a flag or not

Honestly, until I googled it i didn't know there was a law on it

Other than the wasted 30 seconds.

And when you pay money for a service or product that doesn't completely deliver or meet your satisfaction, you get to bitch about it.

If there wasn't a communal expectation, why wouldn't the RD simply say a silent prayer the morning of the race? This is what I don't understand - what makes a prayer over the loudspeaker more effective than a silent prayer?//

I know it is true of many Christians, and i'm guessing most religions, that you should spread the word. If you look at it from the perspective of famous people, or people with an audience or pulpit, it makes sense that they would try and get the word to as many as possible. But i think in Terry's case, it is more of just sharing with like minded folks(of which %'s say it is most people there) his faith at a time of gathering for a special event. One that 100% are tuned into(you paid and are there, so assumed all are there happily and voluntarily), so he uses that time to practice what his faith preaches. Most non believing people(except for the hard asses here i guess) use that time to reflect on what is going to happen in their day, or just go about the business of warming up and getting ready.


Mountain out of mole hill is what this is, must be slow around the offices right now..(-;

I'm not a religious person at all - but it doesn't bother me. If someone wants to do that - great for them. That's there thing.

Kind of my stance on just about anything. I don't feel that someone publicly praying (no matter the religion, no matter in what way) is offensive.

Yes, as the owner and producer of the race, he has every right to do this. But paying customers have an equal right to complain about what they perceive as flaws, and that doesn't make them "haters." It's not comparable to an unpaying guest complaining that their host said grace. People who pay a race fee for a service or product are not guests, they're customers. This is especially the case when the RD is putting on the event to make a profit. It doesn't mean their complaints are justified or have merit, and it certainly doersn't mean that the RD has to change how he runs the race, but their opinions are relevant and shouldn't be so simply dismissed by a lame analogy to a dinner at a friends house.

As I've already posted, I haven't returnedto Wildflower because I think it's overpriced and too crowded. I don't find racing on crowded courses, especially the bike leg, enjoyable. In event that is essentially a three sport time trial, I get frustrated about constantly having to check my speed because others are blocking the course riding four wide, just inside the center line, or in drafting packs. If I want a race where riding in a pack is designed to be part of the strategy, I'll choose a crit or road race. So I don't race Wildflower or other races that have the reputation for those kinds of problems. And as a paying customer, I don't see how my complaints are any less legitimate that someone who is annoyed by the prayer.

A law that says 'should' is basically nothing more than a recommendation.

which i noted. does not chage its character as a "law," however

Truce. I hope you have a great race season.

Clipless pedals.

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float , hammer , and jog

What is offensive is the level of arrogance and ignorance by Christians that these forced moments can be inclusive. As if their religion can cover all the others (after all they believe its the one true one ). As if Jews and Hindus etc are all down with their prayer. It also freaks us out that you don't even know that your being so arrogant as if non christians even live among you in your world.

If you want have a prayer have one, thats cool, just not at the welcoming dinner like at IMLOU or IMLP and not over loud speakers. Get together and share a moment together, I think that might even be more meaningful than a bunch of people awkwardly trying to not be offensive while you offend us by not even acknowledging that we are different from you and might not want to hear you preach to us.

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http://www.johnhirsch.org
http://www.stronglikebulltraining.com

Why do people get so offended at something they don't even believe is real?

To qoute needmoreair

And such a silly term to begin with.

I don't consider myself an athiest so much as an antitheist. I refuse to label myself for having a naturally default (no god) position. Do we need labels for everything we don't believe in? Ghosts? Monsters? The yeti? It'd get redundant after a while.[/quote]
Um, do you know what the letter "a" before a word denotes? So anti theist, or oppsoite of theist, is a what? Why do you think the "a" is before it. It is not a label someone came up with but a word that has been in the dictionary for a long time. Talk about redundant. You have to create a word which there is already one for

I like your way of thinking...I love when atheists acknowledge there is a God by becoming offended when people exercise their right to pray to Him. I'm okay with their right to tune it out. If there's no belief, how is it any different than any other song or announcement on the loudspeaker?

To the OP, I wish everyone was a Christian, but like jackmott said, if you're going to be an atheist, be a cheerful on. If you really believe in nothing, there's nothing to be upset or offended by. How about this...I'll silently pray for you.

The insulting part is that i may find religion stupid, somebody taught you a series of lies and you lack the intelligence to question or challenge it. Blind belief means you simply can not think for yourself.

So when someone is expecting me to participate or engage in it, this person is basically thinking of me as just as stupid as he is. That's the insulting part. That doesn't mean an atheist acknowledges the existence of your god.

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Don't forget to attack!

I'm glad I've insulted you enough to keep you talking about God. Again, if you REALLY don't believe, then why have ANY reaction?

No one asked you to participate or engage any more than they asked you to sing along to Beautiful Day or whatever other motivational song they played as the gun went off. You've chosen to engage all on your own.

You really don't get it.
It's not that we're pissed about "god." We're annoyed at pressure from society to make us conform. That's why one or even many people at an event praying themselves, don't bother most atheists. But the praying becoming part of the communal experience due to actions by the organizers, is so annoying.

And even some non atheists feel the same way - people of religions other than the dominant one in the US. Don't take advantage of moderately scarce communal events (such as sports) to foist your beliefs on everyone.


This.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

You illogic is fascinating. By your flawed logic you must believe in Atheism by acknowledging them.

I would think it was weird if an RD got on the mic and started pushing his MLM scheme that guarantees that I'll lose 20 lbs. in two weeks.

Although, it might be a good target audience.

An athiest is a term used to denote a disbelief (that's the problem) in a deity. An antitheist is a term used to describe someone who opposes religion outright and thinks it harmful to humanity.

Obviously you don't have to be one to be the other.

But maybe you can showcase your ignorance a bit more and prove how little you know about certain words and their meanings. Want to give it another shot?

*edit: hopefully I fixed your hack job of quotation marks, Kenney!

I love Christians like this. I wish more were like you.

Your own worst enemy!

Kids have imaginary friends...I don't make up religions to say I don't believe in them. What kind of religion is atheism if there's nothing to worship? Why would you waste the breath of stating you're an atheist if you truly believe there's nothing opposite of what you believe? You're right...atheism exists. What's your point?

What religion do atheists not believe in, again?

The bottom line as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me, then they can have a prayer circle, Indian bomb fire dance, Islamic call to prayer, etc. Same with national anthem. If I'm setting up T-area and they start the anthem, don't ask me to stop what I'm doing. Being an American isn't about a song or a flag. If it makes you feel more American to hear the song, etc, so be it. It does nothing for me. It's a song. That's it. I'll respect your right to worship, respect my right to continue on with what I'm doing.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Thanks for your ultimate douchebag moment. Here's an original though for you, don't expect your rights to be respected if you're incapable of respecting the rights of others. Pretty simple concept, but oh so complicated.

Exactly. The problem is the influence on society.

I mean, there are schools in the US still teaching creationism. Public schools! It's an embarrassment to this country and it is hurting our youth. That we have "educated" adults still thinking the Earth was created 6000 years ago and humans came about by Adam and Eve is a true travesty. And that it's being taught as a truth in our schools is terrible.

In 2014 America. Cringe-worthy.

That statement makes absolutely no sense. What exactly are you reading to make you post the above response?

Respecting yet disagreeing with another's opinion is a pretty simple concept. Everyone has the same goal in life, to be happy. It's not an us vs. them equation - it's really about different approaches to the same goal. It starts with respect.

Cool. But utterly false.

There are many things that are outright stupid and harmful and deserve not a modicum of respect. Westboro Baptist Church immediately springs to mind...

I don't always get my pink panties in a wad, but when I do, it's not because of this!

Other than the Christian Brothers Tri (and I can't remember how they handled it but given the name, thinking it was open to all), all of the others have had a small group off to the side if people wanted to attend/listen to morning prayer.

No, Westboro as disgusting as it is, was exercising it's rights to freedom of stupidity. I respect their freedom of being stupid, but I don't have to like it ;)

I hope there is a higher power...I really do!!!!

BUT....as of right now, God will not get you across that finish line........Busting your ass training will!!!!!!!!!!!.....Same as paying your bills, keeping your job, and everything else!

If there was a God the way we understand it......Most of my family would not have died from Cancer so horribly!!

Lets all hope there is something more and better on the other side:)\\\

And you respect their victim's right to be subjected to it?

You can pander this "respect" thing all you want. I simply do not buy it, however.

Respect is not just given to anything and everything just for the sake of respect.

This is an interesting topic. I should start out by saying that I am a Christian. I don't believe in ever being unkind to someone who doesn't believe what I believe or treating them differently for that. I believe that we are each entitled to believe in whatever we want to. I think my struggle today is that it seems like those who don't believe in God view Christians as biggots and close minded people, and I'm sure some Christians have treated them that way and perhaps given them that viewpoint. However, as a Christian that believes in the teachings of the Bible, I am convicted to live by the standard that God lays out in the Bible. It may seem close minded, but I simply want to do what it is that God wants me to do. I do want to evangelize because the Bible says that I should. I believe in Heaven and Hell and because of my belief I want others to go to Heaven too. If someone doesn't believe in that, I don't push it, but respect their beliefs. What hurts me as a Christian is that it seems like those who don't believe treat Christians in an unkind, close minded way. I read one post on here where someone referred to Christians as ignorant and unintelligent. I must say that I find that hurtful. As much as a non Christian would not want a prayer before a tri, I find it beneficial. It seems like what most people today are pulling for is acceptance in others beliefs. Those who are homosexual want to have acceptance and equal rights. But it seems unfair to me that Christians can't be afforded the same thing. People don't want to accept that I believe in God. Is that not in turn being treated in a close minded way? I guess what I'm saying is, if true acceptance is what we are pulling for, the Christian needs to accept that one doesn't believe but the non believer should in turn accept that the Christian does. So if a Christian leads a prayer, we should accept that this person believes. It doesn't mean you have to participate, but nonetheless you should mirror the acceptance. If I do a race where a prayer isn't led, I don't get offended. I just accept the RD doesn't want to do that. I understand what those are saying who are not for a public prayer, but I will say as a Christian that it's hard to read some of these comments and how it seems that some treat Christians in the very way that they don't want Christians treating them. I think we have to understand that it's a two way street.

ahh, so you're missing the whole point of respecting others, which is not what westboro was doing - in case you're case you're confused (and you clearly are). Well then carry on with your head up your ass, have a nice day.

" its a USAT sanctioned event,"

the fact that it's a USAT sanctioned event means it's what? what does that sanctioning bring to this race that a non-sanctioned race does not enjoy?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What?

Alright, sorry, I missed a few posts. But, isn't this what the OP is doing?

Yep.

That's not what I got out of the OP.

Yeah, it's rough out there for Christians. They can't marry in many places. They face all kinds of discrimination in the job market. People can get fired from jobs just for being Christian and it happens all the time - plus they have no legal recourse. Almost no Christians have ever made it to Congress, and there has never been a Christian president. At least that we know of - they might have been but have to keep it secret.

When they want to open a new church there are often protests against it, especially since 9/11.

Yeah, it's rough being a Christian in this country. Real rough. Not enough acceptance and really limited rights.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Webygail13 wrote:

how it seems that some treat Christians in the very way that they don't want Christians treating them. I think we have to understand that it's a two way street.

Do you think an RD not having a prayer is the flip side of having a prayer? No, the opposite of a RD holding a prayer would be asking everyone at the event to spend a moment thinking about how there is no god, and to affirm it together.


Has that ever happened? Get a clue. Many atheists, religious people of other faiths in the US (where they are a minority), and even some progressive Christians just want to be left alone, and for religion to happen in private. Be religious in your church, in your home, or even in public by yourself or with people like you. But leave the rest of us alone and don't ask or pressure us to take part.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

"If someone doesn't believe in that, I don't push it, but respect their beliefs. What hurts me as a Christian is that it seems like those who don't believe treat Christians in an unkind, close minded way. I read one post on here where someone referred to Christians as ignorant and unintelligent."

the comment to which you refer did not call christians ignorant and unintelligent, if it's the comment i read. the comment said it's ignorant and unintelligent for christians to think that this is a moment that everybody thinks is inclusionary. it's obviously not, and i think you can see that from this thread. this runs counter to the point you made right before, which is, you don't push it. in this case, the RD pushes it.

that said, it's his race, he's a good man, i've been there most years since the mid-80s, and the same man that says this prayer live the fact that everybody makes of his race what they make of it (including a pretty interesting mile-4 run aid station).

i've been giving some thought to going over and racing israman. were i to do so - i have no nationality or religion that would cause me to prefer this race over any other - i could imagine a jewish prayer before the race. were i to race in morocco i could imagine an islamic prayer before the race. were i to race in slovenia maybe there would be an eastern orthodox prayer before the race. i would find each charming and cultural. i therefore can't fault this RD for doing what he wants at his race.

that said, in my opinion, it borders on bad taste for a christian to comment on this thread that he's a christian and he has no problem with the prayer. he's not the party that stands to be offended.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, bear with me here because I understand that this is a stretch. Seriously, I do. But, I think this conversation is interesting. Let's say you have a private club that discriminates on the basis of race or gender - you might run in to some problems getting a permit to serve alcohol from the government because it might seem like the government is endorsing such discrimination. Could you make a similar analogy to USAT (absent the legalities that don't apply, but just perception) sanctioning a race that seems to promote one religion over others?

Dude - you're being a dick.

Spot on.

Ok...I am ignorant and a hack in punctuation....So we now know you are superior. Ok.......but if curios your word antiatheist is in wiki and urban dictionaries. Also can find an online definition but sadly webster is as ignorant as I am. . But please. Insult me more. Ther probably would be hope for me if you could pray for me though

Who gives a rats ass? Listen if you believe, don't if you don't or you believe something different.

Personally I think most religions are just different frames around the same basic picture. If the frame fits, cool, if it doesn't, ignore it and move on.

People getting "unsettled" by another religions expression in any context are why we have holy wars.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Dude, you're escalating.

"Could you make a similar analogy to USAT (absent the legalities that don't apply, but just perception) sanctioning a race that seems to promote one religion over others?"

it depends on what USAT's charter and mission are. if you're talking about the USAT i'm talking about, the RD could read either the entire book of genesis or the entire set of NRA bylaws before the race and it would not matter, the RD would continue to get his sanction every year. but, theoretically, there are some things that the RD could not do. for example, i don't think he could disallow gays to race. or black people. or white people. obviously you can disallow men. which is interesting. that would be an interesting legal test. but is it infringing on someone's religion if there is simply a pre-race prayer? obviously not based on the recent supreme court case. plus, i think it's a stretch to say that a sanction places a governmental umbrella over a private event.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was trying to be very clear that I understand it's not a government umbrella, but a USAT one.

I'm sorry if my comments bordered on bad taste, the thread ask for our thoughts, so I was just adding mine. The problem for me is this: I believe in the Bible and what it teaches. Jesus tells us in Matthew 28:19-20 to evangelize. If someone believes that some people will really go to Heaven and some will really go to Hell(which the Bible teaches), what kind of person would he be if he didn't want to share that with other people? It's the same as if I saw a car speeding across the parking lot about to hit someone and I believed that it would, what kind of person would I be if I did not do something to try and save them? It's not that a Christian wants to force anything down anyone's throat, but based on what a Christian believes, they should be compelled by love for others to want to share the message with them.

I really do understand this. However, I think you should really take some time to appreciate that others might not. Especially in circumstances when you might have them as a captive audience. Believe me, I've had more than a few friends want to share their story and I really don't find that offensive. I can talk to them, face to face. However, when you just get on a mic and want to witness, you should be able to understand how this can be unsettling to some people.