Is the spider more of a swimskin than the amphibian? You are obviously a serious racer with great swim chops, why did you choose not to wear a swimskin? I would prefer not to wear one, actually, so I am intrigued by the spider. Perhaps I should say I am intrigued that you chose to only wear the spider.

One other thing - I mostly do local races where I am simply out swimming everyone and entering t1 alone. If I do races where I anticipate drafting (like IM TX next year) I might think differently. Did that (drafting) play a roll in your suit decision? (For those who don't know Scott cannot draft off of faster swimmers because he is the faster swimmer)

Are you suggesting that the reason ITU competitors do not swim in swimskins, over their trisuit because they have decided it isn't faster? I would probably point to it being against the rules as the reason.

Again, if there are suits that blur that line, I want to know. It is interesting that I specifically asked the guy from Kiwami to tell me what the differences are from the Carbon and the Spider and he said nothing. So I will ask you, what is the difference? I really want to know.

I have tested more than 30 swimskins. No kidding. I have done all sorts of tests, with or without trisuit underneath, I have thrown them in water to see which sinks first. I did a test where I wanted to see how many 25M swims I could do in less than 13 seconds in a row (on a 45 second interval) in various suits. All that said, I sure as heck don't think I have all the answers. Technology changes so new tests should be performed.

Good and fair points. What I am trying to suss out are the strengths of the Kiwami suit. In this thread and others there are a lot of Kiwami fans/employees that pop up to question someone any says another suit is faster, but they seem to be very careful with their language and never specifically say the Kiwami is "faster".

Now maybe "faster" is too multi-faceted a question to answer, but every time someone says something/anything else is faster they are quick to jump in and question that without offering a compelling argument as to how they've arrived at that.

I like the looks and idea of the Spider WS1 ( thought it is $$$) and am truely trying to gain information about the product.

Andre would be able to answer it more definitively than me, but in my eyes the Spider WS1 and the Amphibian 008 are exactly the same suits with two minor differences.

1> The Spider has a pad.
2> The spider has compression and a good deal of core support.


As for why I chose the spider? Over the 11 seasons I have done triathlon - so probably 100+ races, I have only had 6 non-wetsuit swims - if I don't count the races with pool swims - why do I need a special swim skin for 1 race every couple of seasons? When I do need it something like the spider or amphibian give me the exact same benefit, plus they just look bad ass.

From a performance perspective, I doubt that I'm losing anything* by wearing the spider, if anything I'm gaining time. At IMTX I went into transition in 5th or so, something like 30 or 40 seconds behind first. I left transition in 1st by a comfortable margin as everyone in front of me had to deal with their swim skin. All I had to do was take my helmet and glasses out of my bag, drop my cap and googles and I was on my way.

*I mentioned in the thread similar to this about swimskin + sim vs. wetsuit that I was going to be doing my wetsuit test set with the Spider and Amphibian once I get over this cold. If I hadn't put a big rip in my Konami kit and tossed it, I'd repeat it in that too. The Spider is awesome, but the Konami is *really* comfortable for Bike + Run, and looks even more bad ass.

I doubt that. A Roka maverick pro is worth about 7 sec/ 100M over a speedo and while I have not tested anything like a Roka Viper, my experience tells me it isn't going to be on that level.

I will say that my experience is that the Amphibian and Spider are quite fast in the water, and perhaps the claims of saving time (and much money!) are in the sphere of the big picture. As Scott stated, from the start to the bike is crazy fast while others are fumbling. Another facet of the Spider IMO is the specific compression of lats, core and hamstring/quads depending on LD or short distance suit. This compression helps the muscles used in the sport. If you try one, you will see it absorbs very little water and drys crazy fast, without having the "sag" many other suits have.
As far as comparing it to other suits, I think industry courtesy is that one does not bash another product. Many of us KNOW how awesome the gear is, and try to speak on merits, not negatives.

Scott's a great one to offer advice on this topic, so listen well.

At IMTX I went into transition in 5th or so, something like 30 or 40 seconds behind first. I left transition in 1st by a comfortable margin as everyone in front of me had to deal with their swim skin. All I had to do was take my helmet and glasses out of my bag, drop my cap and googles and I was on my way.


Swimming is my strong point......usually 1-2or3 out of the water. Can't comment on specific brands but to address OP's original comment....I always wear a swimskin over my trisuit. It takes less than 4-5 seconds to remove if you have it half off during the run to your bike.

Re above comment......there had to be another reason for the slow transitions

You and I are on the same level, I tested and didn't go on experience and came up with ~3.5 I am with you on a wetsuit being about 7. But this was compared to a TYR Carbon. I think I will go ahead and ordered a Spider so we'll see how that tests out.

I'm testing the spider as being faster than the amphibian. I think it has to do fit fit. The compression causes it to fit tighter(good way) than the 008 which fits a tad looser through the middle. It fits snug between a trisuit and swimskin and has the nicest leg gripper I have tested(it's about 2 inches vs the thin line on must trisuits). The pad is smaller than most on the market but easily sufficient.

Fair points. I believe there are a couple of things at play here for this issue.
1. No brand is perfect for everyone. Fit and comfort is huge and like sneakers and bikes, they are all different. In fact, using Kiwami as an example, the fit of the 008 is different than the spider.

2. Testing is quite subjective. Objective criteria in suits is limited becaus the person wearing and testing is not able to produce exact same variables for each test. So for swimming. We cannot maintain exact same stroke power and body position every time. So, the error deviation is quite large, and can't forget placebo. That being said, if you test and notice consistent 2-3 sec per 100 faster, I think the reason doesn't matter.

On average, ITU style suits (Kiwami and Z3rod) are constructed like a swimskin so they are often faster in swim because of this and you do t need to switch. Are they faster than an A grade swimskin, I'm not seeing it. But transition and cost and convenience come into play.

3. A lot of people push Kiwami as the best suits not because they are, but also because they back up with service. Andre is a great addition on this board. He's not paid to only do social media,when you send inquires or orders to Kiwami, it's Andre who replies

I have I brand loyalty per se,I can tell you I have a spider and Zerod that I feel are fastest in swim and short distance events. Great construction and feel. I've used other Kiwami, desoto, lg, etc. my first 008 was purchased because of word of mouth and Andre.

My current long distance suit is LG M2 for wetsuit events. For non wetsuits, the spider.

I'll post the objective criteria (the best it can be) in a comparison article shortly.

The answer to your interrogation is simple. I think it wouldn't be fair to say Kiwami Spider WS1 is the fastest suit in the market. Not fair to the athletes, not fair to our competitors. It's quasi impossible to come up with a complete sweeping statement. As you hinted, there are so many factors that come into play: type of swimmer, body of water, length of the swim among others.

What we can absolutely be certain of: we have more than 10 years developing fast trisuits. Kiwami has been involved with ITU racing since its inception. As a reminder, Craig Watson (owner) raced Sidney Olympics for NZ and comes from a swimming background. So, fast is in Kiwami's dna. We're constantly testing our products via our top ITU athletes and we are constantly looking for adjustments. The Kiwami Spider WS1 and Kiwami Spider LD1 are the fruits of more than 1 year of development.
Now when we read Sentania's comments (see below), we can see our efforts have been going in the right direction.

From a performance perspective, I doubt that I'm losing anything* by wearing the spider, if anything I'm gaining time. At IMTX I went into transition in 5th or so, something like 30 or 40 seconds behind first. I left transition in 1st by a comfortable margin as everyone in front of me had to deal with their swim skin. All I had to do was take my helmet and glasses out of my bag, drop my cap and googles and I was on my way.

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What is the difference between the Spider WS1 and the Amphibian 008? Is one a tri-suit vs a swim skin? Can you wear a tri suit for an entire race, whereas a swim skin you take off after the swim? Would you wear a tri-suit under a swim skin?

That's what I wrote earlier. In the WS1 or the Amphibian in a non-wetsuit race, you really don't need anything else.