alternate opinion: being able to focus on my swimming rather than battling with the fatigue in my legs has allowed me to improve my freestyle technique this past 8 months using the Sim shorts for nearly all of my swims (noting though: I come from a year round swimming background). I would equate them to running on an alter-G treadmill. Salad-bar/Salazar uses the alter-G to allow for more volume when running without the reduced weight could lead to overtraining. For me, swimming w/out the neoprene shorts means either I need to reduce swim volume and intensity or reduce cycling/running volume and intensity, with it usually being the prior. What that leads to, for me, is less training to build the strength and muscular endurance I need in my upper body to swim well in races. Dragging around heavy legs may make swimming more difficult (possibly in a good make-you-tougher kind of way), but it does not directly contribute to increases in upper body strength and muscular endurance for me. So, I see myself aiming for very specific goals and removing aspects of training when possible (like swimming with heavy legs) that do not contribute to those goals. This approach has allowed for improvements in my cycling, running and swimming with a reduction in cross-sport goal interference.

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Spoken like a true swimmer. While I understand your point I have to disagree. Perhaps I am just unique in my development but as many others have said during this thread these are a great tool. No disrespect intended but you seem to just have an old school mentality which is unwilling to adapt to the changing landscape.

My n=1 is this ... I began swimming @ a 2:35/100M in November 2013. I spent the first 4 months struggling and fighting my way through the water. I'm self coached, self taught and self driven. I figured "keep working and it will happen, patience will be rewarded" unfortunately I'm late to the sport or Triathlon (began at 33) and my athletic prime is slowly dwindling. After 4 months of 6 days a week, video analysis, drills drills drills and more drills I managed to hit the 2:20/100M pace. This to me was just unacceptable so I realized it was body position and an unfamiliarity with how it feels to go fast in the water. I then purchased a pull buoy, paddles, fins and the Lava Pants. Within 4 weeks of doing this, using them in yet more drills and getting the proper feeling in the water. Focusing on that feeling I DRASTICALLY improved my speed with and without the tools to 1:55/100M. That was a 22% increase in speed in 4 weeks which was only 11% over the proceeding 4 months. Now let me reiterate, I'm not a great pool swimmer and those times are not with flip turns and a hard wall push off etc but my body position which was my focus was going very well. In every race I had during that season I held a 1:53/100M pace in all swim legs with one stand out performance at 1:47/100M. I was able to compete on the local circuit and even podium 3/6 races I entered.

To me this is a clear indicator that progression is much quicker to be RACE ready for a Triathlon in open water with tools like these. This year I'm further reduced my times in the pool to 1:38-1:40/100M, a 58% increase over 18 months and its still only early in the training season. I wear the SIMs for the duration of every swim session I do. Every Open water swim I do is in a wetsuit and I find the time to adapt is almost negligible. Why would I waste time and energy learning to swim without one when all local races are Wetsuit legal. Once I've got a good handle on that then there is better skill and fitness in the pool to focus on doing so without any buoyancy (Swim Skin, Jammers, Speedos, etc) for the edge case events where it is not swim suit legal.

I agree that for people in hotter climates where the wetsuits are not an option this isn't ideal but I'd still argue that they can get up to higher speeds quickler training with one. Getting a proper feeling for the water and then work on some balance specific drills seems like a better building block method than just endless hours of struggling and frustration leading to signing up for Dualthlons.

---

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

You are going to get all sorts of people telling you not to buy the shorts, or use a pull buoy and definitely no pool toys. I rather tend to regard them like Quakers in a restaurant. And of course the true experts who tell you that ocean swimming is so different that none of those toys will help in the slightest. Which might be true if you trained in salt water.

Here's my take.

Anything that allows you to focus on a particular part of a stroke or position, helps. The shorts allow you to swim in a better position with any stroke rate. It shows you what works and what doesn't (or at least the clock does). Faster or slower, shorter or longer stroke, you take the kick out of the equation.

The sim shorts allows you to kick, which a pull buoy doesn't. So that's a plus. Now you can try to learn the 6 beat, 4 beat or two beat kick that experts go on and on about. Although just getting your feet out of the way and streamlining will sometimes be all you need to learn.

They (the shorts) allow you to turn or flip easier and you don't have to worry about losing them (as some do with a PB) halfway down the pool or at a turn.

And last, but not least, which is the reason they exist, they allow you to practice swimming at any speed in the same position a wetsuit will give you, in a pool, without overheating. Duh!

As a bonus they also give you about the same amount of buoyancy that swimming in sea water bestows upon you. Which (light bulb moment here) isn't such a bad thing for when you qualify for Kona!

I sort of agree with both you and Tim: neoprene shorts aren't great for swimming technique & fitness, but they are better than swimming less or not at all.

From personal experience wearing the SIM suit almost exclusively for a month after the end of the triathlon season, I can vouch that it does hurt technique. After a long triathlon season, I was a bit tired and unmotivated, but wanted to maintain a good frequency of workouts to maintain the feel for the water (5-6x per week, 3-5k per workout). I was a competitive swimmer growing up, and I always felt that it took 2 full months to regain the technique and fitness lost in just 10 days out of the water at the end of the winter & summer seasons. Thus my intent was to spend one month where I was still swimming just as much, just as fast, but with slightly less intensity. The SIM suit tends to make me about 2s per 100 yd faster at cruising speed; at about 1:12/100yd cruising pace in a regular suit, it's about a 2.5% benefit. I wore the SIM every so often during the season, usually before wetsuit legal races to mimic the higher hip position and more shoulder driven technique that racing with a wetsuit entails, but this was the first time I wore it exclusively for any length of time. So I did that for a bit, and after a month decided it was time to stop using it as a crutch. There was definitely some degradation in technique & efficiency.

Results from 2 test sets I do quite often illustrate the point.

Set 1: 40x50s: (16 @ :45 every 4th fast, 12 @ :50 every 3rd fast, 8 @ :55 every other fast, and 4 @ 1:00 all fast)
In season, no SIM: Averaged 30s on fast 50s, :29s on last 4, :36-7 on the cruise rests.
In season, with SIM: Averaged 29-30s on fast 50s, 29s on last 4, :35 on cruises
Near end of SIM month, with SIM: Averaged 29-30s on fast 50s, 29s on last 4, :35-6 on cruises
After SIM month, regular suit: Averaged 30-32 on fast 50s, :31s on last 4, :38-9 on cruises

Set 2: 10x300s @ 4:00
In season, no SIM: Averaged 3:30
In season, with SIM: Averaged 3:27
Near end of SIM month, with SIM: Averaged 3:36
After SIM month, regular suit: Averaged 3:42

Couple of observations:
1. Top end speed reflected by the fast 50s didn't change much, except at the very end of the set. I have enough muscle memory that I was still able to swim decently fast for short distances initially, but as fatigue set in, my pace decreased.
2. Cruising speed, reflected by the 300s & 'cruise' 50s, definitely worsened, about 4s per 100yd. Without the SIM I could feel my hips sinking about 100yd into the 300s, which a) forces the initial catch to push down rather than back, diminishing propulsion, b) puts the head and body into a slightly more upright position, creating drag. I had essentially lost the core strength to keep my hips up (despite a 4x per week dryland core routine that continued during the SIM month). My arms, unaccustomed to propelling a vessel with more displacement, fatigued pretty quickly. So the cruise pace fell from 1:10 to 1:14 with a normal suit, and from 1:09 to 1:12 with the suit. Plus, whereas before I was taking 11-12 strokes per 25 at 1:10/100yd, I was now taking 13 strokes per length to go 4s per 100yd slower. That is quite a reduction in efficiency.
3. The fact that my test set times slowed even with the SIM suit after my month-long 'experiment' refutes, at least in my n=1, the argument that if you race with a wetsuit, why concern yourself with pool times in regular swimsuits? Sure, the intensity declined a bit, but the only variable that really changed was wearing the SIM suit for a month straight.

So I do agree with Tim that the SIM suit does affect one's technique, and not in a good way. If I was still just a swimmer, I would probably never wear the suit because of this. And my suspicion is that without 25 years of muscle memory of what good body position feels like, wearing the SIM suit exclusively could have even more detrimental effects.

However, I think for triathlon swimming, the SIM suit and its cousins are worth wearing occasionally for a couple of reasons.
1. Sprinting in a wetsuit is different than sprinting without one, and the SIM is a good way to replicate this in the constant, quantifiable environment of the pool. Tim has written before, and I agree entirely, that triathlon swims are basically a 100-200m sprint followed by effective drafting at or below cruising speed. Therefore learning to sprint with added buoyancy in the hips, which at least for me reduces the speed at which I can rotate my hips forward, is important to remain relevant at the start of a wetsuit legal race. I find the SIM helps reinforce the more shoulder-driven stroke I use in that initial 100-200m effort, so before wetsuit legal races I'll do 5x(100 sprint, quick glance at the clock + 200 cruise + 60s rest) to practice those efforts. You could do this with a wetsuit, though chlorine will ruin your $600 wetsuit faster than a $100 SIM suit. However, I think swimming without the extra buoyancy is better for developing efficiency at cruising speed, which ultimately determines how fresh one will be after the swim going into T1. The SIM or wetsuit seems to make me 2s or 6s per 100 faster, respectively, than without, regardless of how much time I spend swimming with extra buoyancy. Better to worry about the 'base' speed than to worry about increasing the 'delta' of the boost from neoprene.

2. In lieu of pull buoys, I use the SIM. Pull buoys do essentially the same thing as the SIM by lifting the hips, but bungle the connection between the legs and the rest of the body. At least the SIM still allows one to kick. Even with ankle bands, if one must use them, the SIM allows better body rotation than a traditional buoy.

3. Swimming when I wouldn't want to swim otherwise, from the fear (irrational, as I've always had a weak kick) of trashing my legs before a key bike or run workout. Frequency is the most crucial component of any swimming training schedule, so if the SIM helps me swim 5-6x per week AND still hit my hardest bike or run workouts - which ultimately determine 85-90% of the outcome of a race - I think it's a positive. Whatever the criticisms, swimming with wetsuit shorts is better than not swimming at all. Had I gone a full month not swimming, or just swimming 3-4x per week, I'm pretty certain the results would have been far worse.

All I'm attempting to do is a help the triathlon community learn how to train better in swimming. In my experience, there is a lot of ridiculously bad information on how to train for the swim within the community. The swim shorts just happens to be one of those points.

If you are having trouble with body position in the water, the best tool that you can use are fins. And don't listen to me, Russel Marks who is the high performance consultant for the US Olympic Swim Team, said the exact same thing in an online discussion he recently put on. The reason fins work better is they give you the lift in the water, allow you to kick which engages the core and helps build the "kinetic chain." The swim shorts allow you to relax the core which is the exact opposite of what you want to do in your training.

I want to commend you on the amount of hard work you put in to improve your swim. It is not a small accomplishment to go from 2:35/100m to 1:40/100m. You've obviously worked hard and you should be proud of yourself. And I mean this with all due respect to your accomplishment, 1:40/100m by swimming standards is very slow. And again with respect to you, to put this in context since you readily admit you don't have a great deal of experience with coaching swimming (n=1), the 12&unders that I used to coach routinely swam 1:20/100m and faster.

Where you will run into problems with the stroke technique/kinetic chain that you are developing with the swim shorts, in my experience, is when you try to get faster than 1:30/100m. You won't be able to generate the power needed from the proper core engagement, catch, kick and more efficient movement that is required at faster speeds. If you do an ocean swim that is rough or even a lake or river swim with more demanding conditions, the deficiencies in your technique in regards to power and efficiency will become accentuated. Again, just giving you some insight from experience.

But if your goal is to swim in local races and be front of the pack in the swim and podium half of the time, then keep doing what you are doing. If you decide you want to race outside your comfort zone and compete with faster athletes, then I think you'll find an entirely different landscape.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

tri swim coach just published a review of lava pants. i found my experience to be exactly the same:

http://www.triswimcoach.com/xterra-lava-pants-review/

I'm not (much of a) swimmer, but intend to work on it, if I'm to do triathlons. The running and cycling are relatively easy for me, at least compared to swimming.

Obviously, there are coaches who are accomplished enough as athletes or coaches, that they can pick and choose which promising or professional athletes they choose to coach. If you're one of them, that's great. The explanation that you provided above (in what I quoted) seems to be helpful. That's good information. Still, there are many people who take up sports later in life, who aren't in the greatest of shape. It's a wonderful thing that they're now trying to do something to improve their health and overall quality of life.

While I certainly get your point about the swim tools not becoming a crutch, which prevents you from becoming an exceptional swimmer, I think that the following comparison to running may be appropriate: I'm 49 years old. I started doing a little bit of running five years ago, but did significantly more the past two years. I started out wearing highly cushioned ASICS Gel Nimbus 12s. I now primarily run in lighter weight, more flexible shoes. I have become a better, faster runner; not because I wear less clunky shoes, but because I've been able to log lots of miles over the past two years.

Your argument is comparable to those runners who say that running barefoot will solve all of your problems and teach you how to run properly. I haven't done any barefoot running since I was a kid, yet I completely understand how it could be a huge tool for some people to become better runners; it can teach you how to run in a more natural way. Yet, I think that anyone who says that everyone should start out running barefoot, let alone people who are 50 lbs overweight, can't think outside of the box of the elite athletes that they coach. As someone else said in this thread, you need to be able to crawl before you can walk. If the people in question feel like they're going to drown trying to swim 500m in a pool, they seem like perfect candidates for neoprene shorts, if it means that they spend more time in the pool, and get in better shape.

While the title of the thread was about opinions on neoprene shorts, it seems like your response needs to take into account the level of the swimmer(s). I have no doubt that I would benefit in the long term from wearing neoprene shorts at times, but if you were to argue that I should try to do at least one day per week without them, then progressively spend more time in the water without them as I became a better swimmer, that seems reasonable and helpful to me.

Back to my running analogy, I beat my BQ time by a healthy margin this past fall. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened if I had a coach that made me run barefoot, or in really minimal shoes. Maybe I would be a better runner today in many respects if I had, but then again, maybe I would have just quit running.

Pete

The majority of the athletes I coach are age group triathletes and have similar backgrounds to your description of yourself.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the argument I'm making. I was putting in my opinion on swim shorts not on how to train better as an athlete with a non-swimming background. But if you are interested I'm happy to give my opinion on how to get more efficient.

I was taking into account the level of athlete. Again, in my experience, swim shorts don't help your development as a swimmer they hinder it.

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I'm a very developed swimmer (former D1 swimmer).

While I agree any training tool can become a hindrance when used too much that it becomes a crutch, but from a swimming perspective, using LAVA pants FEELS AWESOME.

The effect is similar to the old "tech" suits that were banned after 2009 in swimming.
Ryon Lochte sums it up:
"I feel like some kind of action hero ... They make me feel like I'm swimming downhill".
http://www.npr.org/...php?storyId=89688685

this is how lava pants feel (and a properly fitting wetsuit).

I'm not disagreeing with you in that they may not help swimming development on the long-term, but when used on occasion as a tool to simulate a wetsuit and/or faster swimming, I don't think they will hurt a swimmer... even someone who swims faster than 1:30/100yr like me. Plus, they are fun to use. Who says tools can't be fun to use? And we all know anything that makes swimming more 'fun' can be a needed motivator to an otherwise boring sport.

No, I'm not at all. I fully understand the importance of core muscle control as it relates to running and I have no doubt that swimming is similar in that respect. If someone asked me how to become a better runner, my first response would probably be to say that they should get a copy of "Anatomy for Runners" by Jay Dicharry. It's not a training manual. It doesn't tell you what kind of shoes to wear. It explains your body as it relates to running, how to identify your weaknesses and how to correct them. Your "core" and a variety of supporting muscles that you may consider to be a part of that, are critical to becoming the best runner that you can be. I don't doubt that the same is true of swimming.

But then, I'm not selling online swim coaching subscriptions for $115 per month, I'm just an average Joe thinking out loud.

I'm the OP, I'm 48 yrs old. I have ZERO swimming experience other than summer pool fun as a child. I'm not going to hit 1:30/100m, I know this. So what?? I'm getting in the pool and I'm doing something. I realize there's all kinds of people: those that laugh at my form/technique, those that are indifferent, and those that genuinely want to help. I've done an Ironman 70.3 and the swim took over an hour BUT I completed the swim and was able to go on and finish the race. Is that OK? Do I need to swim 1.2 miles in 41 minutes to earn my finishers medal? 35 minutes??

This past weekend, I PR'd my half marathon with 1:51:43. That was about 10 minutes faster than 2 years ago. I realize that's not lightning quick but for me, it is. I'm not racing against any of you nor anyone at the event.

I would tend to agree. I have a pair and they're great to swim in, I found my times dropping from low 1.20s/100m to 1.17/1.18/100m but they let you swim quick despite having a sloppy technique. My technique is OK, but it needs a few tweaks here and there, e.g I drop my legs a bit, so I work hard at getting my chin on my chest, pushing my head and chest down, I need to focus on this quite a bit as well as 5 or 6 other things I'm working on. I find if I lose focus, my technique goes out the window and I slow down. However with the shorts, they give me extra buoyancy and now my normal head position has returned to looking forward as opposed to down, which is not good. And I can drop my elbow, not rotate sufficiently, barely kick and still coming in on 1.17/8/9/100m on the 1.30.

I think there are some benefits in that it demonstrates to you what a good body position feels like i.e you jump back into bathers and it is much more noticeable that your legs are dropping whereas before you used the shorts it wasn't as obvious. I'm also in the position now that I've been moved up into a faster swim lane and people are commenting on how much my swimming has improved.... I'm scared to go back into bathers now, but I have to. I wouldn't say to not buy these, but if you want to work on your technique I would either stay away from them or if you do buy them, use them sparingly.

I love my Lavapants!

I'm a strong triathlete but a weak swimmer. I hated going to the pool and now look forward to it. This right here is easily the number 1 reason why I love them so much. I hesitated buying them because I would get funny looks (which I do sometimes). But now I could give a rats ass. Swimming is so much more fun I don't care what looks I get for the 15 seconds it takes me to jump in the pool.

I believe they have made me a stronger swimmer. With my body in the correct position now I can work on proper stroke more easily, especially learning to time (let alone use) a kick with my stroke. My times are already 7-10 seconds/100 faster than the first time I started wearing them, which tells me that buoyancy aside, my technique is improving. Something that wasn't happening before.

Some coaches, such as Brett Sutton, say it's OK to use swim toys, especially if you are an AG'r who isn't a fan of swimming. In fact, he claims to have some pro athletes who use PB's 100% of time time.

One common thing I notice about most of the people who reject using them, is that they never have.

This whole notion of "let's train for a non wetsuit race" is bogus IMO, unless you're training for Kona or for some odd reason aiming to swim the Channel. Which is not applicable to 99% of us.

I have been racing for 7 years and have done exactly one non wetsuit race (even though I could have swam with the suit on there).

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Zone 3 also makes those special swim shorts. The fit is generous for Zone 3 and you don't have to worry about your plumbers crack coming out or needing to pull all the way your private parts to get the swim shorts on as I have experience with some of the other brands.

I think this is an important benefit for novice swimmers. SnappingT makes valid points about the shorts hindering development by letting you achieve good body position without proper form, but I think you have to have a feel for what good body position is in the first place, and I think these shorts are a better way to do that than pullbuoys. For faster swimmers it may make sense to use them sparingly, but for slower swimmers I'd think using them more regularly could be helpful to reinforce the body position thing.

Generally speaking, your body position will improve as you get faster, since you will be riding higher in the water due to your increased speed. In my years of going to swimming practices and observing swim practices for developing swimmers, most swimming coaches do not really focus on "body position" per se but rather focus on getting their swimmers to pull powerfully, kick powerfully, etc. Once you're doing these things well, the body position will take care of itself. Certainly, tools such as pull buoy, kick board, fins, paddles, etc, all have their place, and maybe these "special pants" also, but the end focus should be on swimming in just a Speedo/jammers with no tools:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."