Katie L. is a very relevant example of what moving to a 6-beat kick can do for you in the 800. That is what my post pertained to. What do you think helped get her to where she is? Sorry, but if she used a 2-beat kick she would not have the times she does now. That is very real.

Has to be a reason (not just elites) that clubs I know of are now moving to a 6-beat/hybrid as well. Those that are not I predict will be in the near future if they want to compete from region level to Oly level.

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Formerly TriBrad02

One could argue that Sun Yang, with his 2-beat like kick, and his WR 1500 swim times, are pretty good proof that a 2-beat kick may be the most efficient even at WR level for swim distances that approximate current triathlon swims.

sure except that he
a) doesn't use a 2 beat kick.
b) would most likely be faster if he kicked more
c) doesn't have particuarly good kick mechanics (swims with his feet slightly dorsiflexed).Don't get me wrong, his kcik is very powerful, but there are some things he could do a lot better.
d) is probably one of the worst examples for an AG swimmer to try an emulate. that stroke only really works if you are 6'8 and have the flexibility of a contortionist.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Ha, you beat me to it!

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Formerly TriBrad02

I know they must exist, but I just don't know any fast swimmers in my sphere who use a 2 beat kick. I'm not a big advocate of looking at genetic freaks to pattern my stroke after, but I get the allure. Watching them is hypnotizing and a pleasure. With the times you swim Jason I'm sure you are around a lot of fast swimmers perhaps? Are any of them using 2 beat kicks? The fastest OW, triathlete and pool swimmers I know are all 6 beat. I always keep my eyes peeled when I travel and swim at new pools to perhaps find one that I can watch.

Do we have any ST'ers who are at the tip of the spear using a 2 beat? If there are and you don't mind putting a video up I'd love to see it please. Thanks in advance!

Pull buoys = Triathlete crack...

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

I'm mostly around masters swimmers these days, a few ex collegiate swimmers in their 20's swim with me, but only one was a distance swimmer. He's a 6 beat kicker.

A couple of the women I swim with do more of a 2-beat for distance stuff, but the girls who would be fastest over 800 and 1500 never swim those events. One of the older ladies in the club just recently broke the 1500 SCM national record for the 60-64 AG, (did a 22:16) I think she mostly does a 2-beat kick for distance freestyle (not really sure, since she's mostly a backstroker).

when I was in college over 20 years ago, the girls tended to do a 2 beat, none of the ditance guys did.

On ST - I don't think that realAlbertan kicks much in his distance free events. Not sure if he does a 2 beat or not, I can't recall off the top of my head. It's still pretty individual, but at the very elite level, no one does a pure 2 beat kcik anymore. its definitely trending towards a hybrid and 6 beat kick for the 800 and 1500.


ETA - for tris, wetsuits screw this all up, so you can definitely be a front pack or off the front triathlon swimmer with a 2 beat kick.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Jess Ashwood. Aust distance swimmers. Put down 2nd fastest or thereabouts 800 free time this year behind Ledecky. 2 beat kick except when going into and out of her turns. Remy fairweather, 400free 4:05 (LCM), 800 8:20's. Almost zero kick. Actually weird to watch. But it works for her.

Just 2 from here that I've seen. I'm not saying 6beat isn't faster - mechanically it has to be. Just that some swimmers - and this is top level ones - have worked out that the cost associated with greater kicking detracts from how fast they can get from A to B. This would be especially relevant to those who have to get out of the water and use those same legs on the bike and run.

IT's point was about the difference in energy required between 2 beat and 6 when the swimmer is required to be doing it for a while. 50 - 90+ min for an IM! Your example was not relevant because KL is an extreme outlier and (now or in the very near future) will likely be widely considered the greatest female middle/long distance freestyler ever. What she can manage to do and what you, me and every other poster on ST can do are very different.

While it's interesting to watch and discuss what great swimmers do, let's not get too carried away with our own abilities. We are Not on the same planet. Just because KL moves to 6 beat (and I'm not sure she was not doing this from a young age anyway), doesn't mean that's what AG triathletes should be looking to do for swimming 3.8km. That's what I mean by keeping it real. She could tie her feet together and still beat most, if not all on ST so 2 or 6 beat isn't what makes her fast. She's faster with 6 for sure but that's not a reason for you and me to automatically go down this path.

"Most swimmers and triathletes are faster with a buoy, especially over distance. While kicking might help with 50s and 100s, I think the energy saved beyond 500 would make a buoy or two beat kick faster." ~IT

Sure sounds like he is talking about speed and not just energy consumption among swimmers and triathletes 500m and up to me, not just IM distances like you said. So yeah, since he said >500m for swimmers and triathletes, I will still say my post about an 800m swim is relevant. I missed where I mentioned AG triathlete or IM swim distance in any of my posts on this thread but maybe I did???. In the end, IT doesn't say move on to the bike or run after a swim. He says a buoy or two beat kick is faster. Not more efficient but faster. I will say if your buoy and/or two beat kick is faster then you have some deficiencies that need addressed if you want to reach maximum speed in the water. I agree in that a lot of triathletes are faster with these because of the deficiencies they have.

As for my swimming I qualified for senior nationals as a junior in HS. I opted a different route than the full ride I was offered by one of the "Big 5" division I universities. 20+ year break from swimming. Train 18 weeks for my first ever triathlon at 3x week <10,000m. A WTC 70.3 event. I use a 4-6 beat kick (depending on where I am at in the swim) and come out top 2% overall (non-wetsuit). I rode my targeted watts (.82IF) and the run was as expected for the HR/pace I was to hold. Did a faster beat kick hold me back? Who knows, but I like the results so far so I'll stick with it for my non-wetsuit swims. As Jason mentioned, a wetsuit changes some things up a little. It can actually take more energy to kick with a wetsuit on but that is for another discussion.

In the end, I hope everyone in my AG always uses a 2-beat kick during a non-wetsuit swim. The more time I can put between them and me before T1 the better. If someone asks me what I think is better, I will say train the 4 and/or 6 beat kick. As with any change they may be slower at first but I am willing to bet they will get faster overall with time. Just like B/R, the body adapts in swimming as well.

I'll agree with you on one thing...Katie L. is on a different planet. I do not say this because of the times she puts up (although this could be enough to say that) but because I got to swim in the lane next to her for a few weeks over the summer.

So yeah, I went down that road. Here is me keeping it real.

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Formerly TriBrad02

So do I understand this correctly, you noted that swim programs have been moving towards 6 beat kick, that was enough to convert you over from a 2-beat kick? How long have you been using 6 beat rather than 2 beat?

So you swam 1.9km with a 4-6 beat kick? I'm assuming this means mostly 4? But if not, then you have a serious engine to be able to do this and then put down a solid bike/run. I ran your scenario by two swimmers who were in my kitchen this morning - just to get their reaction and comments on this whole 6 beat kick for distance swimming thing.

I will say that you seem to be backtracking a little with this ">500 "(yards I assume) that you've quoted - this is a middle distance swim and not really relevant to triathlon and certainly not HIM. Anyway, as you trotted out your swimming history, there's is: Both with over 12 years competitive swimming, both multiple Aust open level finalists (as opposed to qualified - big difference I'm sure you'd agree), both have been coached by coaches who've put swimmers on WC and Oly teams (one coached Erick Vendt to silver at Sydney Oly), one is now a qualified coach - he swam back and middle distance free. Both know a little about triathlon and one has swum in a teams oly distance event.

They both laughed at the proposition of using a 6beat kick for anything other than short - middle distance. And their reasoning? Uses up too much energy! Hackett, Thorpe, Perkins - all mostly 2 beat kick for the majority of the race and up'd it in the last bit only. -none could hold a 6 beat kick for even 800. But you can for 1900??.

Now I don't know what sort of a swimmer you were/are, and I'm no fish myself, but I really have to lean towards their opinions over yours. But hey, I'll be seeing their coach Monday and I'll ask him what he thinks. Now that's keeping it real!

You might want to take a look at this before you say that a 6 beat kick isn't used at the elite 1500 level



And just for clarification, the original argument was that a pullbuoy or 2 beat kick is faster for anything over a 500, not that a pure 6 beat is necessary. At the elite level, none of the men are using a pure 2 beat and very few of the women. Tends to be a hybrid style, yang kicking a little less, cochrane a little more...but none of them are really a 2 best.

Hackett was definitely a hybrid 2/6 kick guy. I'd be surprised if thorpe was a pure 2 best in the 800, because his kick was so strong.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

+1 on the blueseventy core shorts. They allow you to kick and get rotation, while propping up body position. And made for the pool.

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"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen

Hi zamm0

pull buoy is usually slower because your body sways left and right without your kick to compensate. though proper pulling technique will get you to sway less but ultimately you will be slower with a buoy. So it's a good sign that you've gone from faster with one to no difference. Your body position has most likely improved. keep up the good work!

You can also give band swimming (just bands and no kicking at all) to improve your body position even more. And head down, eyeing bottom of the pool, press your chest, and swim fast!

Happy training!

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Yu Hsiao,
your local professional triathlete from San Francisco Bay Area.
http://www.facebook.com/yuxsjaoracing
http://www.yuxsjao.com

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Formerly TriBrad02

Like all good ST threads, the original subject can, and so often does, get widened to cover something else :)

My thoughts are that PB's tend to be used by lessor swimmers to help with a wide range of issues. For me, it's keeping my legs up and keeping my kick quiet. I'm 52 and with zero swim background so my focus is to try to get my upper body swim fit (pull) and just use my legs to keep my body in an ok position. Good swimmers may use them for different reasons but they (seem to) mainly use them with the band as a means of isolating the legs out of working. I almost don't kick at all, or at least only two beat, when doing races and training. I also know that I could not get from A to B over any reasonable distance faster with a 4-6 beat kick because my legs would suck the life out of me.

In contrast with tribrad, I'm probably in the 98% behind him but that's a big number of us behind his 6beat kick. My point to him is that Katie L, sun yang, and other elites are not very good examples to raise on this subject matter because they have the hrs and hrs PLUS the genes to do this type of very difficult work but the rest of us don't.

If you look at grant H , he did increase his kick rate over the years so I don't disagree that if one CAN hold this without burning all the matches, then it's great. But at 1500, 1.9, 3.8km, I guarantee that 98% or more if any Tri field won't be capable of doing this. That's why it ain't real!

Sigh!

I just love watching these guys:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yea I should have qualified in the pool, but thanks for input. I tried one of those Huub suits last year in a lake swim and was literally smiling the whole time at the massive boost in tech. Literally it was like having someone under me holding me up and pushing me along I tried all kinds of tweaks....no kick just pulling along, 2 beat, 6 beat.....didn't matter what I tried I would still move along really well with minimal effort comparatively speaking had I been attempting the same tweaks in a Speedo. Just cannot stand the feel of having my skin covered up drives me nuts.

The long-held view has been that a 4 or 6 beat kick is too energy demanding for long-distance swim competition. However, with more emphasis on a 6-beat kick over the last several years and the successes of Katie Ledecky, Sun Yang, and others who kick more in distance events, some believe that a stronger kick is both feasible and superior. A lot of people still hold the "traditional" view about distance swimming and the high-stroke rate not much kicking style of swimming seems to be all the rage right now on Triathlete.com and Lava. Nonetheless, in the next couple Olympics we will see more and more distance swimmers relying more on a stronger kick and longer stroke like we would see in shorter events.

I also spend a lot of time looking at Swimsmooth. The view there is that there are two "ideal" stroke style. One, a choppy high-stroke rate with less body rotation, straighter arms, and maybe just a 2-beat kick. The second, a 6 beat kick with slightly more body rotation, high elbows, a longer stroke, and lower, although still relatively fast, stroke rate. Which one is best depends on the event and a lot on body type factors such as height, arm span, etc..