Well framed, Dan. I'm also curious to see the response.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

i'm absolutely adrift and asea when imagining how this is going to go. i just don't know. we have a group of american indians here in california that, for lack of a better term, supremely has its shit together. it's the San Manuel Band of Mission Indians. i just jetted off a letter to its public affairs office, pointing to the interview, and to this thread, asking them for their reply. hopefully this is a teaching moment for a lot of us, me above all.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the term "American Indian" was used to avoid confusion with people from the country of India. IF I recall my history correctly (and I may not), the Native Americans were called "Indians" because Columbus (?) believed he had discovered India and therefore assumed them to be "Indian".

Now, I have a bit of an issue with the term "Native Americans". Because, based upon currently accepted concepts about how civilization spread, at a point in earlier times there were no Home Sapiens in North America. Thus there can't be any "Native" Americans. There can only be "Those who first settled in America". So, now we are arguing about when a group of people immigrated to the Americas. I haven't really come to my own decisions as to whether I'm in favour of treating one group of immigrants different from another, presumably because they were first.

As to the term "red skins", I think I'd lump that into the same group as "yellow skins", "brown skins". And, we don't use those phrases for Sporting Teams. Many years ago, the "N" word was commonplace (I had a dog called that) and now, we can't use it. Over time, mores change. Locally, a prominent mountain used to be called "Chinaman's Peak". No longer. My point being, as mores change, they apply to Sporting Teams as well. Time to get out of the 19th and 20th centuries and into the 21st.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

On "american Indian" vs. "native american", I have a family member who works with a variety of the tribes in Minnesota. In her experience, each had a particular preference (no consensus), so she was careful to use the term each preferred when working with them.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Appears you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe other source(s) would be more fruitful for you.

A few....

http://www.nativeamericanpassions.com/
http://www.ya-native.com/
http://forums.powwows.com/
http://www.firstnations.com/...viewtopic.php?t=1606

http://500nations.com/Indian_Casinos.asp
http://www.nber.org/digest/feb03/w9198.html
http://www.nigc.gov/...ming_Operations.aspx

I'm offended that you don't think the Washington Redskins should be allowed to keep their traditional team name .... you should be more sensitive to those who appreciate American traditions. ;-)

Dave

Slowman, I'm originally from Puerto Rico (I'm not living there now and I'm not a Native American) but I think I can offer a semi-applicable minority perspective. If I wanted to I could be offended at something somebody said or did in reference to my ethnicity at least on a weekly basis. Truth be told, I only notice these things when I read about comments/questions raised such as the one here about Calum's headwear. I don't understand why people in general are so ready to be offended all the time. Trust me, I have faced true situations of discrimination in the past but 99% of the time regular people are not looking to ofend others.

I believe that where things are obvious, intentional, and malicious they need to be nipped at the bud and addressed publicly. However, the PC nature of our society is out of control. One of my co-workers the other day busted me for my crazy Puertorrican driving. I could easily be ofended at this but instead I chose to laugh about it because it's true! Anyone who has been to my island knows we drive like crazy people. I also understand, clearly, that the intention was not meant to offend. Callum's intention is also obviously not to offend. We, in the 21st century, being led by an African American President, should not be so easy to offend when it comes to matters of race. Just my opinion.

As far as the Redskins name goes. I also believe it's not the team's ownership intention to offend but if it is indeed offensive to Native Americans then it's a no-brainer, it should be changed. Where I am from an offensive name for a Puertorrican is a Jibaro (means peasant), however to many of us it is a name we identify ourselves with (especially if you are a native of the island as I am). Not sure if Jibaro is equivalent to Redskins but D.C. is welcome to use the name Jibaro for their team any day they want! I think most of us from PR would love that :-)

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------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

just at face value any non-native-american dressing up in a headress and war paint is reminiscent of blackface. however, it's just way over the top by any standard to call callum millward a "racist", because he does not, certainly to my knowledge, believe that his race is superior to native american or any other. the racism charge here is just faux outrage.

that said, where's the proper line? do we protest turner classic movies when they air the searchers? on halloween do we walk out onto the street and gently exhort parents when their kids show up at our doors dressed as indians? maybe so. i don't know. i certainly do think any occasion of dressing up as, or mimicking, hollywood stereotypes may well be insensitive. i just don't know where, on the insensitivity gradient, each incidence of this lies. i need to be taught.

i'm not interested in hearing other non-native-americans tell native americans to "get over it." i'm only interested in hearing from, and learning from, affected parties. i've reached out to a particular band of american indians a couple of times, honestly it's gotten to pestering, i hope they don't mind, but i want everybody who's interested to hear what these folks can tell us.

i suspect that what they might say is that the current issues right now - poverty, diabetes, education, equal access, even just electricity - trump all, and all americans should be aware of and work together toward solutions of current, urgent indignities sufferred by this cohort of americans. but it's not for me to say what is an appropriate level of offense. hopefully i'll hear from them and what i hear i'll pass onto you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I"m about 1/2 does that count? The government has even given me papers & I am registered. I think it's the only population that is still tracked by % of blood except dogs and horses.

My mom is Native American & my Dad was a real cowboy with cows & horses. Neither of them actually ever wore those head coverings. (Wink) For that, I find this odd and retro "funny" as in funny only because it's painfully childish. My thought is if you have to ask, then you know it's probably just poor taste. I'm not offended, but I would not likely have any good warm fuzzy thoughts about the associations in the video. I'd find it immature & kitschy at the expense of a deeply burdened history that most people don't know the truth about. Ask me about my grandparents being taken from their home at the age of 5 to "Americanize" them because they refused to live on the "reservation" and the loss of tradition, language, and decency. It's a damn touchy subject for those who know because the long list of insults go deep. I could go on with stories & examples, but I think you get my point.

Edit: Joan Rivers would ask about a borderline joke (like this one) that hit a raw nerve, "too soon?" And I'd say yes, too soon.

lori, thank you. you are exactly the person i'm hoping to have weigh in.

perhaps i owe an explanation. cam millward used the cowboy and indian motif as his "device" for the interview. my own sense, it''s kitschy on purpose, like a parody of a badly done movie. still, because cam's a kiwi i suspect he was unaware of the skin sensitivity of this topic.

i saw this interview video pretty early on, after it's publication on slowtwitch. maybe 90 minutes or 2hr after it was up. i then faced a choice: pull it own, or leave it up. had i pulled it down, my guess at the time was we'd have had a forum thread on why we pulled it down, which would have devolved into the "slowtwitch is racist" side versus the "native americans just need to get over it" side. (a typical internet debate, ending only after hitler was invoked.)

i decided to leave it up and see what we, as a community, could learn. had this video actually been a mean spirited attempt to degrade a group of people, i'd have pulled it down. i didn't think it crossed that threshold. rather, i felt it was made by someone naive to a fruitful cultural dialogue less than 2 decades old.

the author of the piece is a kiwi. my editor in chief grew up in germany. i have no excuse. in fact, i am quite well read in the history of native americans, and as a californian i'm aware that california's natives fared as bad or worse than any other american indian cohort, first at the hands of the spanish who virtually enslaved them, then in the westward expansion brought on by the gold rush. about 90 percent of all of california's native inhabitants were wiped out by one means or another, and the remaining 10 percent were cheated out of whatever land or lifestyle they might have enjoyed.

when i was in las vegas, covering the interbike trade show, about 3 weeks ago, i remarked to someone that i'm pretty anti-gaming, all the way around, with one exception: indian casinos. i find a symmetry and karmic balance in the knowledge that white man goes into an indian casino pockets full and then leaves, pockets lighter. but i digress...

i just want to establish the fact that how this was handled was my call. if my judgment was bad it was my judgment, my decision, my error. if we all do in fact learn something, then we all get a slowtwitch bonus: swim, bike, run, and sensitivity training.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hi Slowman,

While I am not full-blooded, my father is and I lived a few years on the Navajo reservation in Arizona. Like Lori, I also don't take personal offense to the video. Cal's actions may have been in poor taste, but I'm sure that he meant no harm and that he would surely be sensitive to someone who was offended. If I am bothered by situations like this it is frustration that there is a double standard when it comes to imitation of Indian culture, especially since most people don't know the depth of the Nation's insults against Native Americans. This becomes a problem when huge corporations and associated groups of people (i.e. Washington Redskins and fans) perpetuate this behavior and are apathetic to the sentiment of the affected group. Cal's audience is relatively small, and his depiction was merely an instrument to the introduction of his interview, so I personally don't think he is doing a whole lot of harm. In my opinion his actions are wrong, but forgivable.

That's a very high bar to set to ask for change in our society. Given that the majority of Americans hold implicit racial biases against people of color, demanding that they are intentionally and maliciously acting racist is a recipe for maintaining the status quo, where dark skinned people are assumed to be stupider, more violent, lazier, etc.

Not good enough. I call bias out even when it's not intentional and not malicious.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Dan, I think you have a chink I your armor with this line of thinking.

I am 1/64th Native American. I am not however a yellow chinaman

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

While I like Dan's desire to get facts from the people involved, the comment above is technically racist in itself. Racism as I understand it is treating someone differently because of their race. Differently doesn't necessarily mean worse, but generally does.

Being white, with not a drop of any other blood in me, I am intended to be excluded from this discussion according to Dan's OP. That is racist. I, my opinions and my knowledge are just as valid as the target group. I don't think I should be excluded just because I'm white.

I suppose that being a straight white middle aged middle class male, I could take offence at this thread, and being asked to exclude myslef from it, but being white male etc, the PC world doesn't allow me to take offence, and to be honest, I don't take offence.

I look forward to the day when we are all just one large group of friends. I don't think it will ever happen, and certainly not in my lifetime, but I hope it does. I look forward to when we can all look forward, and grow the human race, together. I look forward to the day when people stop looking back to some real or perceived transgression and can just play the cards they are dealt.

There has been fighting between all the various groups in the Middle East for thousands of years. Surely it can be declared a draw and people can build things rather than tear them down. There is no winner in war, just two losers.

In the USA, blacks and whites have been at undeclared war for hundreds of years, still with no winner. Surely it too can be declared a tie and both sided get together to build a better country rather than trying to tear the other side down?

Tha same goes for Native Americans and the whites. There have been trangressions in the past. Nothing will undo that. Can't the unfairness be stopped and everyone just do something good for all people? It doesn't actually cost anything to be nice to people (all people)

Rant over, and yes I realize the futility of my position. It might be utoptian, but better to aim for utoptia than to aim for mediocrity

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

"While I like Dan's desire to get facts from the people involved, the comment above is technically racist in itself."

i agree.

i don't want to exclude white people from the thread. what i don't want is for non-affected people to opine on whether they were offended by callum's interview motif. you have a right to be angry because other people were debased and demeaned. but you don't have a right to be offended, the same way an affected party has the right to be offended. what i don't want is an argument between a bunch of white people, some feeling great offense and others saying get over it. i just spent 30 minutes interviewing someone who is a triathlete, 100 percent navajo indian, and i got GREAT insight. i'll be reducing that to writing one way or another.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, be a leader. The question isn't "was anyone offended". Be a grown-ass man and make a decision one way or the other instead of asking a million internet strangers, tight knit Tri community or not.

The question is "was that in poor taste". As Yoda said, search your feelings, you know them to be true.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

For the love of science, pink.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

All good Dan.

I stopped being offended (by anything or anyone), when I truly stopped measuring my self worth by what other people thought.

The last time I was offended by anyone was 12 years ago, when my then 14 year old daughter called me a c*nt for the first time. I was offended to the core and stewed about it for the longest time. Then I realized that I'm only human, certainly not perfect and am just doing the best that I can. I now strive, every single day, to be a better person in some way. Some days I try to be a better father, some days a better engineer and some days a better triathlete. Most days I fail, but I certainly give it the old college try, every single day. I realized that my daughter expected me to be perfect, at least in my treatment of her. I realized I'd failed in her eyes, but I also realized they were the eyes of a 14 year old girl, so I decided to not lose any more sleep over it.

Since then, not getting offended by anything has been one of the great successes in my life, and has certainly helped me be a better man.

Now back to the actual topic of this thread :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Of relevance to me was that Callum and Linsey were poking fun at Linsey's cowboy schtick. He subtly pointed out that she's not "really" from Montana, and definitely is not a cowgirl---which all makes the cowboy hat a bit silly. And Linsey was a great sport about it and played along well, poking fun at herself.

Callum was making the point that him dressing as an indian was no more ridiculous than her dressing as a cowboy. It wasn't like they just picked groups at random to goof on--jews vs. palestinians, arabs vs. christians, etc.

Anyway, I loved the skit because it was both outrageously ridiculous but also very subtle at poking fun at Linsey. And she went with it, which speaks a lot about her.

Yeah, but it would have been a pale pink because it was only half in jest. As noted, I could have been offended, but I wasn't.

anyway, have a great day

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

1. I agree with ericM40-44....Dan, pick a side, I have no doubt you're smart enough to form your own opinion.
2. Why isn't this in the Lavender Room?
3. I'm a life long Washingtonian and Skins fan.
4. If you're really serious about how Native Americans feel about this refer to a poll fomer Redskin Chris Cooly conducted where he surveyed members of Native Americans tribes all across the country. He spoke about this at length on the radio show he co hosts. The results where pretty telling.

Sometimes pink is so obvious that it doesn't even need to BE pink. Or...does it?

For what it's worth, I don't view what's posted on the front page as being - necessarily - "endorsed" by Slowtwitch as an entity. The nature of ST is such that Callum's great videos being posted on the "front page" do not cause me to believe that Slowtwitch itself is endorsing or condoning or sharing any of his opinions or beliefs they (being ST) are merely posting an interesting video that is likely to garner them more page views and help showcase an athlete making a name for himself.

Agreed

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

"Dan, pick a side, I have no doubt you're smart enough to form your own opinion."

my opinion is irrelevant, but, here goes (and i think i've pretty much already stated this). my opinion as to cam's indian device is that, to me, it's not offensive, because i interpreted it as a parody of a parody, that is, rather than the degrading of a race of people who have already been degraded way more than any group's fair share, callum parodied a kid's game of cowboy's and indians. and i think a lot of native americans i've heard from pretty much felt like that. i also think - tho i haven't asked him - that callum, not being from the U.S., is not hip to the sensitivity of this issue. i don't think you can indict somebody on a charge of any kind of racism when this same parody, enacted 20 years ago in THIS country, wouldn't have raised an eyebrow except among native americans. just as with gay rights, both the rights of native americans and the understanding of the indignities they've suffered is a fast changing landscape. it's just not fair to expect callum to understand all the cultural nuances in this country

i also don't think you can say that callum isn't a racist but performed a racist act, as that's just as absurd as saying someone's not a murderer, he just performed the act of murder. callum is innocent. ignorant of an insensitivity? yes. he's probably not ignorant of it any longer.

there is no race of people who have suffered more than native north americans, and it's very recent. it's not 400 years ago. it's 100 years ago. it's 75 years ago. there are a lot of reservations which, to this day, have no electricity, have no plumbing. so, to lecture native americans on what they should and shouldn't take offense to by the very descendents of their oppressors is not rational, let alone proper. that's the other side of it, and honestly to me it's the most important side of it.

so, if by "taking a side" you mean i should either says callum's a racist or indians need to get over themselves, no, not gonna do that, because i believe neither. i do acknowledge that it takes more than your average wherewithal to find that nuanced place somewhere in there that best encapsulates the proper takeaways, and i regret that not everyone is up to that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman