Thanks for the update :).

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CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Hey Guys...

Wahoo has been quite responsive in terms of helping with the problem....

After sending them the files, they agreed that I was getting random power spikes on both the Wahoo (BT) and TR (ANT+) sides.

They sent me a link to guide me in updating my firmware to a Beta version (which they say should fix the issue).

It was a bit of pain to actually get to the firmware page... but I eventually got it done.

I will keep you all posted as to whether the issue is gone. It doesn't happen every ride... so I will need a few weeks to see for sure.

Sounds like it's well established that the fault is on the Kickr side, not TrainerRoad.. but to reinforce this point, I've never had this issue on my computrainer.

I agree, never seen this type of issue with my basically computrainer.

I wonder who has done some real world testing for how accurate the KICKR is.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Very true...I had the CT for a few years leading up to the purchase of the KICKR. My main problem with the CT was flats on the rear wheel, which occurred way more often than it ever should on a trainer.

No power spikes on the CT using TR though. Hopefully when this issue gets worked out with the KICKR... it will be the perfect trainer for ME :)

Interesting news on the f/w update. I've tried a few times to see if there are any updates since I got mine at the start of the year but it hasnt wanted to update anything yet.

I've got quite a lot of time on the Kickr now and have to say its a superb piece of kit. I dont get spikes or dropouts admittedly and my only issue is my Quarq regularly drops out when training indoors, but thats just a few seconds of lost data in an hour session. While my Quarq and the Kickr dont agree on power numbers, they disagree by a constant amount al the time, so working with it is easy. I always do a spindown calibration after the warmup and also calibrate my PM frequently as temps change and the numbers reported by the Kickr are very stable.

When combined with TR the Kickr is a great training tool. I've been following the TR 40km TT plan and seen significant development in FTP after being at a plateau previously for 18 months, despite a lot of training. Fingers crossed the next update solves the spike issue some people are suffering from.

See if there is a correlation with a spike and a gear change. I'm seeing that

I never change gears... ERG mode all the time.

I see the power spikes as well, without changing gears, with TrainerRoad requesting a "fixed" wattage (e.g., I see the spikes in the middle of a 5 minute interval when TrainerRoad is asking my Kickr to deliver 200 watts). So this isn't a correlation with changing gears.

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Matthew
Twitter: @AlphaDogCycling
Instagram: @AlphaDogCycling

The point being?...
watts are watts. However, 230 watts at 100 rpm is a different workout than 230 watts at 85 rpm. So, gear changes during a workout impact the profile of the workout. Data gives us watts, heart, and cadence. (forget the rest for now). The same erg workout can have very different TSS based on cadence, hr, etc.

Just Sayin,
Larry

Larry you seem to be mixed up regarding TSS. The calculation of TSS does not involve cadence or hr. It just uses intensity factor which is the decimal portion of your FTP combined with time. TSS = IF^2 X hours. I do agree that the two workouts you mentioned may well illicit different adaptations but the TSS they generate would be equal.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Point taken. However, the actual physical impact of 1 workout vs. the other will be different. So, is TSS the only metric we should use when assessing training load and effect?

The point being that he was asked if the spikes occurred near gear changes. He said he used erg mode and never changed gears. You then got snarky because of something that wasn't what he asked. Why?

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Thanks for having my back :)

Wasn't intended to come off snarky. If it did...apologies

No worries...

Putting aside your error on TSS calculations which has been pointed out, keep in mind that the load controller supplies a constant power resistance load independent of the rotational speed of the flywheel. It has no idea what gear and pedal speed you are using.

IOW you can change gear, yet still pedal at the same cadence and still have the same power demand because the load controller adjusts accordingly to maintain a set power resistance. There are of course some limits, usually such load controllers work best within a given range of flywheel speeds.

No one said it was, but for training loads and assessing overall metabolic stress, can you find me something better?

As for training effect, that's a whole 'nuther ball game, and TSS has never been a training effect measure.

Assessment of other specific factors can also be done, e.g. pedal force-velocity plots if you want to examine neuromuscular demands a little more deeply.

The power spikes happen to me too. I get about 1 spike for every 2 hours of riding (roughly). Yes, they are annoying but I agree with others, it's still a fabulous piece of equipment in my opinion. None-the-less, hopefully the new software solves the issue. Regarding it's accuracy, I tested it against a SRM power meter and it was within a few watts. That was several months ago. I should test it again.

How is the update working out for you?

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

Actually, the rare power spikes I get on my Kickr are a total nonissue for me. Yes, it briefly increases power but it's for like a second, and quickly goes back down to normal, you notice it, but it's too short to affect your workout, and rare enough (for me, at least) that it's a nonissue.

The more annoying thing for me is the Kickr brake that seems to lock on if you stop in the middle of a hard interval. Even doing the backwards pedaling thing to get the cadence up to the point that TR says it's started the workout again, at least half the time I need to put down like 350+watts for 10 pedalstrokes to get it to disengage the brake, or stop pedaling altogether, wait for it to restop, then backwards pedal and hope the brake disengages the next time. I don't stop more than 1-2x per 2 hr workout to change a fan or video setting, but that's the only Kickr glitch I've had.

Otherwise, Kickr+TR has been awesome, from hardware + software standpoint, would highly recommend.

I get power measurement drop-outs and spikes, but the ERG power remains constant. I don't think I've ever had it inadvertently dial up the ERG watts.

I've tried selecting different gears to reduce the rotational speed of the KICKR's flywheel, and sometimes that helps. I'd prefer to not do that.. it's a different pedaling response at low flywheel speeds (feels more like low speed climbing, rather than stomping out watts on a flat road).

I'm using it outdoors, and the spindown/calibration temp reported in TR is normally above 30 degress celsius (86F). When the measurements are really wonky, I do another spindown (mid-workout) and will notice a big (sometimes over a second) delay between my pedaling speed and reported calibration speed.

My current theory is the flywheel velocity has some impact on airflow, and when the unit gets too hot, communications errors (ANT+ or Bluetooth seem equally challenged) cause the KICKR to buffer and retry sending datapoints. (My KICKR almost always starts out with good smooth readings, and then deteriorates during the workout)

Whatever it is, it's extremely frustrating and so far reporting it to Wahoo hasn't resulted in any beta-firmware upgrade offers.

Read thread

I was for a while dealing with up to 16 of these units all 'working' at various stages of success. (really only 8 on a consistent basis)

I feel there are a few issues that are happening and you guys have touched on a couple of them.

Flywheel speed is definitely a culprit in ERG mode. You can outspin the resistance unit if you are in the "53x11" and whip up a 110+rpm (or so). Once you get the flywheel up to those speeds it just gets all types of confused.

The issue someone stated above about the 'locking up of the brake' is just a math problem really. If you hop off the bike during a 200watt effort and ultimately stop pedaling but not for the whole 5 seconds (I think it was that long?) you will re-start at 1rpm x "force" = 200 watts. That "force" is wicked hard to overcome until you give the unit some metrics of increasing RPM's so it will release that "force". I found that every time I got off the bike (only in ERG mode) I just made sure the first thing I did was pedal backwards. This isn't releasing the brake, it's just adding a couple seconds to account for the brain realizing you actually fully stopped.

ANT+ is SUPER finicky when it is coming to Kickr. Not sure they have the kinks worked out. I'm suspicious of the random peaks. It seems like the result of lost communication from the ANT+ from either unit (PC or Kickr). The ant protocol has a 1/16second frequency if I recall with a dropped connection issue at '8' packets (sorry if this is off a little, it's been a while since I was neck deep in this). What this means for our Kickrs is communication is happening both directions 16times per second, that's 8 'listening' and 8 'talking'. if .5seconds goes by and there is no communication the ant stick with start looking for something to talk to again and have to start that relationship over again. it sounds like the 'talking' FROM the kickr isn't happening during the spike as the computer keeps ramping up the afore mentioned "force" while it waits growingly impatient for the RPM info to come from the unit so I can make adjustments. This is a HUGE issue when you start adding multiple Kickrs and HR monitors and cadence sensors as the ANT channels start getting clogged and Data drops start happening more regularly.

end of the day statement, I LOVE the Kickr + PerfPro (or trainer road) combo, BUT I think the use of ANT+ was/is flawed currently or just simply isn't the technology that we were needing to accomplish this task of 'wireless power adjustments'.

Now I feel like I need to go get on mine and pedal.... But the sun is shining so Outside it is.

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Tim

Bringing this back to the top....

My KICKR is still experiencing these random spikes... there are two spikes during this workout. The spikes don't look that bad when smoothed... but the bigger spike was well over 400 watts, small one about 350 or so. Really annoys the hell out of me.



I Emailed Wahoo again... to get an update on the latest attempted fix.

Anyone ever figure this out? I get a spike about every 3-10 workouts, sometimes 2 spikes in a session (usually the longer ones). There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason as I've had them on 30 minute TR workouts and 3 hour workouts.

How far away is your ANT+ stick from the Kickr?

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