On Ipad so opening that article isn't very easy, thus haven't read it.

There are a few items you can distinguish pretty easily, but sometimes I think people say an item is 'better' just to justify the purchase. Especially with drive-train. With that said, didn't Josh just give us a reason not to buy that $450 pump? After all, if there are so many variables in play, will one really notice the more 'accurate' gauge on that pump? :)

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

well, i think Josh would argue that tire pressure is probably one of the few variables that does make a perceptible impact on ride "feel."

Ding ding ding. I'm not saying I would spend $450 on a pump, but the point that an extra couple pounds of air in the tires is more noticeable than major component swaps is really an arrow to the knee of an industry that sells small incremental differences as major performance increases.

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I came across that post a couple days before it was featured on the front page and thought it was gold. Glad to see it get front page billing.

IME, I have found Josh's comments about tire pressure overwhelming frame characteristics in terms of ride feel to be spot on. I own two very different bikes: a Cervelo P2 and a Kona Major Major cross bike. I might have bought into the idea that the frame design of the cross bike (longer seatstays, smaller round tubes, scandium vs carbon, etc.) resulted in its compliant, vibration damping, plush feel. Then I swapped the cross bike's wheels (32c tires @ 70psi) for my road wheels (23c tires @ 100psi). Suddenly my cross bike felt just as sharp and stiff and my aero-tubed tri bike.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Wait, nobody else does this?

Touché...

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the point that an extra couple pounds of air in the tires is more noticeable than major component swaps

First - Kudos to Josh for what he said. Don't want to take anything away from him. It's an excellent article and should be read by anyone who rides a bike!

Second - this is not real news. Gerard Vroomen, co-founder of Cervelo said the same thing on the forum many times years ago - that tire pressure and choice, was perhaps the biggest contributor to how a bike would feel!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I thought it was a great article. What an eye opener. I guess it goes back to the placebo effect-what you think will work will probably work.

If you blindfolded me or taped up the bike I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to tell which brand of bike was which based on feel. I could probably tell the difference between say a Roubaix and a Madone based on the fit but I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell a difference between the Roubaix and whatever the Cannondale roubaix style bike is.

It's a cool article, especially from someone like Josh. While working at wheelbuilder.com I often told clients the same thing in regards to tire pressure so it's nice to hear Josh saying the same, and apparently Gerard was/does as well.

But I could "blind feel" the difference between a set of Velocity Chukkers versus Zipp 303s FOR SURE. Both on the bike AND if I built them with my eyes closed, which I in fact did with several of my own wheelsets. Granted, those two rims are quite different :) In my head I can still feel the difference between certain wheelsets, but they have to be extreme. Like the Chukkers, or the Flashpoint 80s, both of which were very high on my favorites list as very heavy wheels make a ride so so smooth; made me feel like a train. My first few pedal strokes with Reynolds DV46 after riding a shallow aluminum rim, the Velocity Fusion, gave a feel that could not have been placebo; it felt like I had taken off a super thick pair of socks and Bondi's and put on some track spikes with no socks.

I hate you - for other people.

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"One Line Robert"

Or maybe armed with this knowledge us 'savvy consumers' should now buy an S2 along with the $450 Silca pump, instead of the new S5. Not only do we save ourselves about $4K, but with the precision of the Silca pump we can get the S2's ride characteristics to exceed those of an S5 who's tires were inflated using a POS pump........

^^^
+1

Haha well luckily for other people I am joking. But, it is an intruiging idea...

I would absolutely manipulate tires and tire pressures on bikes if I owned a bike shop, to make each bike match what the user is looking for before a test ride.

It isn't even deceptive, it helps the customer.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Interesting comment. I disagree with the helping part but I say that as a part-time --I sell bikes because I genuinely enjoy getting people into the sport (or getting people that are already in the sport on nicer equipment). I want people to buy the right bike for them. My primary motivation isn't selling for selling's sake. To that end my interests aren't immediately aligned with that of the shop, (though my numbers usually end up being very good) so I wouldn't just manipulate the pressures to make the bike match what the rider is looking for and sell more bikes. Or maybe if I worked in a shop for a living, had fewer options to sell than I currently do, and just wanted to blindly get bikes out the door I might just "do what I had to." Basically I could think of some constructive purposes and some unscrupulous purposes for manipulating tires/pressures. For instance, for an athlete who needs the geometry of the domane but is too hung up on some preconceived notion about it not being stiff enough, I could just run the tires up to 110 or 120psi and bust that myth (ultimately a good thing).

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That is exactly what I mean. Customer comes in, is interested in comfort.

Decrease PSI to 90 instead of 100, bam they got comfort on most any bike in the store and don't have to get a domane if they don't like the way the domane looks, or it's price.

Or customer wants something responsive and stiff!

Ok bam, 110 psi instead of 100, and now they don't have to buy an R5 if they don't like the price/look of the R5

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Or, another example, you have a model of bike that is a perfectly nice frame, but comes with a saddle that makes it feel like a rock hard awful ride.

Swap the damn saddles off of there.

(I'm thinking specifically of a popular aero road bike here, haha)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

It makes so much damn sense! I feel like a co-benevolent/evil genius!

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I've always suspected this is the case, but there isn't a whole lot out there in terms of data.

I came across this test years ago: http://web.mit.edu/...ww/ppt/Bike-ISEA.pdf

Perhaps some insight into the slight differences frame materials (and tube shaping?) make when tested on frames with very similar geometry?

Along with that VeloNews seatpost test, it seems like there's something there, but outside the scope of most human perception? What about things with more actual suspension like Trek's decoupled seat tube, or Calfee Manta?

I work in a field that sometimes requires incredible sensitivity to taste (thankfully not of me), so clearly some people do have heightened senses, but if you read forums enough, you'll swear that everyone can tell a 1mm change in saddle height, or a 1 psi change in pressure (despite +/- 5% accuracy). We always see concept bikes strung up with appear to be diagnostic tools at team training camps, so are companies measuring but not releasing data, is it just internal, is there any difference?

I work in materials testing ( mainly for clinical applications ) and am quite aware of the forces required to bend/deflect materials.

whenever weekend warriors talk to me about 'this stem isn't stiff enough' or ' that crank is so much stiffer' I just roll my eyes....

Well crap - I just bought a Domane because my current aero road bike (yes with 100-110 PSI for 85kg) was so vertically stiff!

Ahh, our first scientific vibration test. Good background.



Human perception can be quantified through psychophysics. See "JND," inspired by Slowtwitch's own Jack Mott, here: http://www.cervelo.com/...able-difference.html.

We worked for three years with Dr. Champoux (his early work was referenced in MIT's study above, and we've gone further since then) and colleagues. We scientifically developed a test protocol and metric by which to measure vibration transmission (from the road to the cyclist). We also conducted a huge test campaign comparing lots of different frames, forks, wheels, components, etc.



In our testing the R5ca transmits the same vibration to the rider as the Domane we tested. We haven't tested a Calfee.



I once witnessed a professional bike fitter tell a pro cyclist he wanted to raise his seat post by *half* a millimeter. He did, and the pro oohed and aahed about how much better it felt; the fitter oohed and aahed about how much better his pedaling motion looked.



We're measuring but not releasing data yet. So far it's just internal. Yes, there are differences. They are very small, mostly not perceivable, but measurable with the right instrumentation and careful protocol.

Cheers,

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Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)