Yes and no. The reason I don't see it as a problem for the swimmers is they one, tend to have much better awareness of the water, and two, tend to have much better top end spend from their days of swimming. If you put two athletes in the pool they might swim the same set but one might use a ton more energy in the process and generate a ton more body heat. Then there are more stout body types versus the skinny minis which amplify the problem. Not about shoulder fatigue

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You may be quoting the study, but you're misapplying it.

The 1:20 that you're referencing is full suit vs. no suit. The difference between sleeves and no sleeves is correctly being interpreted as between 12 and 48 secs per 1500. That's a pretty big variation.

Great link DanielG
Again hard to believe though... That article doesn't really provide reasons why... Sure the test results are there but the facts aren't really... It's not like comparing racing a triathlon in a mountain bike vs. TT bike (weight, knobby tires, frontal area, body position) all those facts aren't there to clearly say sleeves better than no sleeve.

One thing that the study somewhat doesn't account for is the preference for the swimmer and how that affects confidence. Think of your mental confidence knowing you have to swim 1.2 in a speedo vs. a wetsuit... If there is a preference towards a sleeved suit (which is most likely) the confidence would be higher which would show up in the results.

What does confidence have to do with it? You could be the most confident swimmer in triathlon but you're still giving up time if you go sleeveless. The second point sounds like a training issue to me not a study design issue.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I bought a full sleeve wetsuit and wish I had gotten a sleeveless one. I got the Orca 3.8 and had it fitted but there is a noticeable increase in resistance in the shoulder movement compared with no suit or sleeveless. Since I spent 10 years weightlifting before I did any endurance sports I can basically muscle through it and retain enough strength to be in an aero position for hours but if the event after swimming was rope climbing or hand cycling or something no one would wear sleeved wetsuits. I suppose if I swam in open water day in and day out I would properly condition to the suit but that isn't realistic for a lot of people. I would be OK with 3 seconds off of my 100 (I somewhat doubt I would see that level of difference) for a 1/2 IM if I was taxed less in the shoulders.

I would think so.

I bought a wet suit the other day and tested it out in the local pool at 24c and i didn't think the heat was an issue at all. after taking a few months off over winter my fitness isn't great but the pace difference between jammers and the full suits is crazy, i'd expect the gap will narrow as i get fitter though. I have been struggling between 7m and 7m20s a couple days ago for 400m and easily did 6m16m today with the suit. when i'm in decent shape my 400m Jammer pace is close to 6m16, i don't expect i'll go low 5m :(

ive noticed similar range of motion restriction issues with my sleeved version.

I'd suggest that the person fitting you made a poor choice. The Alpha would have been a better suit for you. It's got more flexibility in the shoulders vs the 3.8 although the 3.8 is a somewhat faster suit due to being more buoyant. A Synergy wetsuit probably would be a better choice than either.

To both you and winchester and others saying that shoulders are restrictive:

The main problems with tight/restrictive shoulders are wetsuits that don't fit correctly, user error when putting it on (not getting all the material up into the crotch then into the shoulder & I'd say from what I've observed at triathlons that 85-90% of all people putting on a wetsuit don't do it correctly the majority of the time) and/or people buy the latest and greatest wetsuit not the wetsuit that is the best fit for them.

It's not a matter of conditioning it's a matter of getting the correct suit that fits correctly which you did not do.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

i would like somebody to show me ONE example of an athlete in an ITU WTS race - any of the series races this year - or any world cup, continental cup, racing in a sleeveless wetsuit. we have a lot of pics of these swims and i can't find one. this surely ought to speak to the question. shoulder restriction is no issue. never has been.

now, overheating, yes. but that's almost never an issue in the RACE. it's an issue because people have their fullsuits pulled on, all the way up, for too long BEFORE the race, in the pens, waiting for the race to go off, on days when the air temp is hot. often this is in large races where you might be on the shore for a long time waiting for your wave to go off (chicago, wildflower, etc.).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I honestly don't think that any pro would overheat in a full wetsuit while swimming in a wetsuit legal WTS ITU race since the water temp is less than 68°.

But back to the full wetsuit issue, I really think that most people don't have $600+ to buy a good wetsuit based on somebody's word.

They buy a $200 wetsuit, try it out, it may not work for them, then they get frightened by a big price tagged suit. They may be feeling that they'll waste their money on a product that won't work for them.

Unlike what Ironman publishes, most triathletes I know don't have a household income of $150K+ and cannot blow $600+ on a suit they have little confidence in.

That's pretty much what happened to me.

jaretj

I am a decent swimmer, swam for two years in college, who has sworn off full suits for loosing "feel of the water" and my shoulders just feeling tired. But this thread has made me rethink that. Now, I have had lots of problems with full suits b/c of my body type. I am 5'9, 185, but years of swimming has made me broad shouldered, big back and chest heavy.

Are there some wetsuits that are better fitting for this? The full's that I have tried all seem to bunch up and never fit right. Or are there custom fits or semi-custom fit ones I should look at?

Thanks!

When I put the suit on just right then the thing works OK. I tried a blueseventy and the Orca, unfortunately it is hard to thoroughly test these things, if I did it again I would go with the De Soto 2 piece. The blueseventy helix was completely inappropriate for me despite being a very high quality suit. This is one of those things one learns from experience.

It is a matter of conditioning, any wetsuit with full sleeves will introduce some constriction that doesn't exist if you don't have a suit on. For a 1500-1900 meter swim, I will be OK with some constriction.

Similar, I am 5'10" and 185 pounds, I spent my twenties deadlifting, benchpressing, T-bar rowing, etc. This is not the body type that wetsuit designers had in mind!

thats why the sleevless works great for me. maybe the 1-3 seconds per 100 does not apply then? I also thought if you are a FOP swimmer then maybe a full suit has even less of an advantage?

Does pace matter. I am around a 1:15 per 100 swimmer.

It is plausible that a well fit sleeveless works better for you than a poorly fit full wetsuit but ceteris paribus if you find a well fit full wetsuit you should use it.

It does matter less if you're FOP in terms of you probably not being as much faster than sans wetsuit as a BOP swimmer might be. However an advantage is an advantage and being able to save a bit of energy is also an advantage.

Ok. So what companies provide best options?
Any custom or semi-custom that won't break
The bank?

I would look at ones that have 1 and 2 mm neoprene on the arms. Hopefully someone will chime in with one

This is false. Very false.

Again if you are finding this it's not the suit for you. I can tell you already that you shouldn't have even tried the B70 suit. I mentioned Synergy or the Orca Alpha since you have large shoulders, or find a suit with 1-1.5mm #40 or #44 rubber in the arms and shoulders. You may also need to find a suit with an upperbody/arm/shoulder panel vs a suit that has an arm/shoulder panel.

It's been said numerous times but I'll say it again: You need to swim in the suit to make sure it fits right, trying it on in the store and deeming it good isn't a good option unless you are very wetsuit savy, which most triathletes are not.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Depends on what you consider breaking the bank.

The Aqua Sphere Phantom uses 1mm 39m in the shoulders, sleeves, and Bio-Stretch zones.

I too am a life long swimmer and this suit fits like a glove. The shoulders provide excellent flexibility.

There are a lot of suits using 2mm and below in the shoulders and sleeves. I personally am a bit biased, but I feel that our Bio-Stretch technology is unrivaled in terms of opening the range of motion and reducing restriction. This technology can be found in all of our wetsuits from entry level to top of the line.

At the $600 and up pricepoint, you will see more suits using a thinner material in the shoulders. But that isn't all that causes restriction. Where that shoulder rubber is pulling on is a large constricter and causes a majority of the restriction. Just about every manufacturer addresses this with a type of tech (B70 TST, TYR ROM zones, ect). You can find a suit in every price range that will give you a great range of motion, with limited restriction. It's just a matter of finding what fits you.

If you have any further questions, I'd be more than happy to help you find a suit.

Jake

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Get outside!

Thanks. checking out the Phantom now..my hesitation with all these upper level suits (not just aquasphere) is if I buy one..what happens if I discover its not a good fit.How does one go about finding a wetsuit that really fits.

thats why the sleevless works great for me. maybe the 1-3 seconds per 100 does not apply then? I also thought if you are a FOP swimmer then maybe a full suit has even less of an advantage?

Does pace matter. I am around a 1:15 per 100 swimmer. ///

Ok, a lot of this fit and that pace getting thrown around. Like some have said, many suits are using thinner rubber in the tops to alleviate shoulder strain. But the number one thing when they talk about fit( and i have not seen it here, maybe missed it) is the torso length. The most important thing is how does the suit fit your torso, excluding the 2 piece DeSoto of course. If your torso is longer than your suit is made for, then you are just up shit creek. All the fancy thin panels are not going to help you. And the big problem is how the hell do you know how has what torso lengths? There are some patterns built for short people, like medium short etc., and that will help with folks like the guy on here that is 5'10" and 180lbs. They are made for the more barrel chested types. But if you are 6'3" and 160 and have 31" levis, you are going to need the longest made torso suit you can find, but which one is that?

In the end, when you find a full suit that fits your body right, it will be faster than a long john. This experiment has been going on for almost 30 years now, i was one of, if not the first to test all these things. As pointed out, which pros do you see wearing long johns, and in any format of racing? All their sponsored wetsuit companies make a long john, you would think at least one pro would be sporting a long john if it had any advantage, or at the very least was comparable.

We had in the early days a few guys using long johns, but in one season they were all ditched. There were a lot of women still using long johns, it was said and thought that they did not have enough shoulder strength to swim if a full suit, kind of like they were too weak to run marathons in the 70's. One by one the began to switch over, until the arms race so to speak, forced all of them to wear full suits too. They were not too weak, and it was a distinct disadvantage to not have a full suit. Thus you have basically all women swimming in full suits too today.

And it is not a placebo affect, if that were the case it would go the other way. The placebo is that you feel better( and thus some feel faster, they are not) in a long john. Its just that many in this camp only rely on that feel and not the hard evidence against the long john.

And lastly, all this bull about arm rubber throwing off your body position, it is hogwash. Its pretty simple, all things equal, more rubber means faster times. Arms give a good amount of rubber, they make your arms more hydrodynamic, and they add substantially to the compression that has been proven to speed up swimmers. It should be a no brainer, but like using the 220 - your age HR chart, this thing keeps popping up from time to time..

If you press a fabric against your joint (esp if you are practically vacuum sealing it to your body) you will introduce resistance, period. It doesn't matter how many magical panels you put on a suit, this is a matter of physics. The only way to completely eliminate shoulder resistance would be to detach the sleeve from the suit. I can make the suit more manageable by spending the 15 minutes to get it on properly (esp adjusting the sleeves) and getting some water into the neck/shoulder line to lube it up but if I realized what PITA that would be I would have gone with a deSoto or a sleeveless and maybe sacrificed a few seconds per 100.

I have given this some thought. Could it be that the shoulder fatigue that a lot of folks complain about isn't due to constriction, but instead due to the actual weight of the rubber on their arms? I would think this would be analogous to running in heavier shoes; we know there is an advantage to running in the lightest shoe that works for your foot (I forget what the 'rule of thumb' is here). Has anyone done the study to see that effect? I imagine it would be hard to do. And a poorly fit suit that allows and then traps water in the arms would contribute even more to this effect.

Most people who run can feel the difference ~1oz makes in their running shoes. Our shoulder muscles, especially the rotators used during the recovery phase, are much weaker, so maybe it is magnified? I wouldn't be surprised if the weight of the arm rubber is more than 1oz per arm. Obviously training more in the wetsuit can help overcome this, but I would imagine the opposite of what happens on the run (train in heavier shoes, race in flats) is happening on the swim (train in pool with no wetsuit, race in suit with added weight to the arms).

I was thinking along this route since I noticed I can't maintain the same stroke cadence in a full sleeve compare to sleeveless or no wetsuit, but overall I think I'm still faster due to the decreased resistance of the sleeves, and I have a pretty long stroke/glide to begin with.

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I was thinking along this route since I noticed I can't maintain the same stroke cadence in a full sleeve compare to sleeveless or no wetsuit, but overall I think I'm still faster due to the decreased resistance of the sleeves, and I have a pretty long stroke/glide to begin with. ...////


YOu are right in that the weight will make some difference, but i still contend that the biggest problem is the pull from the crotch. Pull up your suit sometime but leave it down a few inches from your crotch, then try and stretch your arm forward in a swimming reach position. You will feel how hard it pulls back on you, and that is where most the fatigue comes from. Now of course there will be some fatigue and some extra weight in all suits, but all that can be overcome for faster swims if minimized, trained for, and ignored. It is like holding some position that isn't quite the most comfortable on the bike, but you train yourself to hold it anyway because of the time savings. Lots of butterfly and pulling really helps wetsuit swimming in my opinion, and of course just going out in your wettie and swimming some good long swims.

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