Does Kevin Motes live in Florida? Are there lots of wellness doctors in Florida? :0)

I cannot believe how many folks are in the older AGs at Nationals, both male and female. Nationals has really become a must do race. Too bad it was not on the west coast this year. :o(


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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've actually found that I (am I'm not even old) don't respond well to hi-intensity training as a focus.

If I drop volume in lieu of intensity, I maybe sharpen for 2-3 weeks, then start losing endurance fast. I do much, much better keeping volume up, and if I add speed, it's never at the cost of the volume. I've found this the hard way - the 'intensity for volume' tradeoff for me is a total losing proposition, even though it seems to work for others to some degree.

I'm nearly 65 and started running when I turned 60.

I agree with, putting in the volume and speed comes. Not the blinding speed of youth but you won't be running with the fat chix anymore either.

I get more consistent volume on the TM. Sucks, but when I hit pavement, my legs are stronger and absorb camber an other nuisances better. Leading to even more volume.

Yes, just turned 58 a few days ago. Now thinking about IM at 60, but had to stop running and swimming due to unresolved asthma. Putting in lots of bike mileage and definitely feel the benefits.

Back in my 30s, my run PBs were all set with no speed work, but that's because I ran myself into the ground with too much hard running.

So, who are the dangerous 60-64 in Penticton? Mikey Ross and Mark Roberts are the dangerous guys I know here in Vancouver in the 55-59 AG but doubt that Mark would be doing IM

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

I believe Motes is from the Atlanta area... But there are a lot of "Anti-aging" clinics in FL.
Another interesting point: The last three winners of the Sprint Nationals, men's 65-69, have all been 65. My pick for this year would again be a 65 year old.

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Remember Luddites are people too...

I resemble that remark

Joe Friel says we need to keep up the intensity: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/...-getting-faster.html

My own personal experience with intensity since turning 60 has resulted in injury/no training.

The key to increasing speed is getting your heart rate up and keeping it up. While short very hard intervals will do that, longer easier intervals will also do it.

One of my routes has traffic lights every mile or so. I accelerate from the traffic lights at 120-150% FTP to get my heart rate moving in the right direction and then try to keep my heart rate in a beneficial range until the next light. On another route I have 30 minutes between stops and I take it easier getting my heart rate up and keeping it there.

I wonder if the ideal protocol for older people is lots of zone2 zone3 endurance training for reduced injury risk and heart attack risk

then weight lifting for muscle mass and neruomuscular power and anaerobic capacity. It isn't as effective as doing sport specific work, but it does work, and you can reduce the risk of injury.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

56 here. Finding I need to take some periods where I just do LSD and avoid any type of speed work, and then ease back into normal intervals on the swim, tempo work (1 run dedicated and then part of long run), power intervals on the bike. I've been strength training for 20+ years, and I try and never skip that in a given week. Finding that nutrition needs to be great (excepting Twinkies, Pringles and assorted candy in weeks >16 hours training) to keep me going, and of course daily stretching and regular massage. I will find out in about 18 weeks whether I can get through another intense IM training cycle, but so far so good. Speed is coming back in a hurry on the bike (push it and ride with faster people plus I did a lot of slow, big gear work over winter), run speed just needs some tuning/structured workouts, but swim seems most impacted at this point. But I never was a great swimmer; yet I know that unless I swim at least 10k/week, I will swim like total crap.

In my 13 years' tri experience, consistency trumps volume, and volume trumps intensity, at least for the long distance races. And consistency is made possible by tuning into all the little things like sleep, stress reduction, nutrition, stretching, massage and staying out of trouble elsewhere in life.

That sounds like good advice. It also sounds like good advice for novices of all ages for getting a decent base with reduced risk of injury.

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Ian

Guess I would never use him as a reference. I totally disagree with intensity running for older folks. I am 56. Just not worth the injury risk.
I have NEVER done speed work in training. Everything I do is 100% LSD, around 10mpm pace. I do a lot of hills, all LSD.
After 17 years of racing, I just set a new run time in an Olympic race for the 10K of 40:16. I guess this is impossible based on Joe's
experience. Now, I do open it up in races, which is where I get my speed training.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What works for one person, may or may not work for someone else.

56 yrs old...Been running for 30 years and have missed probably a month total due to injury in that time frame.
My weekly schedule include Daniels T-Pace, I-Pace and R-Pace intervals...50 weeks a year. Depending on the time of year, some weeks more than others. All LSD, all the time would drive me batty.

I think JF is dead on with his assessment of training for us old folks.....use it or lose it. If your goal is to be as fast as possible, you'll never convince me that all LSD is a better way to train than a program that mixes in intensity and strength work.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

HERESY!
=)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Just out of interest, what sort of volume increase did you achieve?

I went from about 19 miles a week running LSD, to 30 to 35 miles a week LSD.

Each 3.1 mile loop I climb a big hill such that I do about 300 feet of climbing.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Maybe you just happened across a particularly mis-measured, short run course?

Also - given that you'd always done 3x6m / week (IIRC), and only recently have started running more volume, perhaps that's why you're now running better?

I'm reminded of the saying, that was somebody's sig line for a long time:
Speed work is the icing on the cake. You don't even have a cake yet.

Maybe you finally have a cake?

You can certainly skip the icing, if it's just not worth the injury risk. I understand that completely.
Intensity is great - right up until it isn't.

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float , hammer , and jog

I would generally agree with this. In fact can't say I've read anything by him in 4-5 years or so.
But in this case he is probably right (I didn't read the article so I don't know the particulars of it)

Given that there is a large neuromuscular decline in again coupled with a decrease in muscle mass and a decline in vo2max one of the best ways to hinder this is to do some high intensity work.

Now it may not be right for you, but in general to slow/hinder/reverse etc the decline associated with ageing some high intensity work is probably the right thing to do.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Since I have run the course like 30 times over the years, have never run this fast on it, and was 3rd OA on the run, in terms of relative speed, I am sure happy for an old guy.
On top of the years of powercranks helping my legs, I think the tons of hill climbing I do each week has been a huge help also.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That's great. Congrats! Your run volume is paying off.

I was just throwing it out there, that the possibility exists the course may have been short.
It's not like that never, ever happens in tri.

Running "faster" in a tri could also result from better bike fitness and/or pacing, better weather, weight loss, all sorts of variables.
I'd imagine all the extra biking you've been doing in prep for IM helps in that regard as well. I was never more fit in my life, than getting ready for my last IM.


No doubt the hill climbing during your training runs helps.
(that's "closet" intensity, btw. And a very safe way to add it in.)

And since you race fairly often (certainly as compared to me, these days), that's also a fair bit of intensity.
It's understandable why you'd hesitate to add any more to your regimen.

Good luck at Tahoe!

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float , hammer , and jog

I'm not that old (YET), but what Jackmott posted is what I am generally doing more and more of. Let's reassess on my N=1 in 10 years when I am 58 rather than 48.

Dev

I have to admit, I never thought the volume would help, but since I have had my best race season ever, I cannot say that anymore.

But I can say still zero speed work in training.

But yep, I race a decent amount which clearly is speed work.

I just try to do the odds with the normal, older, out of shape, overweight folks I talk with.

Until they get down frequency, consistency, and duration, meaning 12 months a year, 6 days a week, putting intensity into anyones training, IMO, is playing with fire.


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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

From a continent away, H2OFun's bump in "speed" this year, ML's in 20011 and mine in 1991 all coincide with a heavy Ironman build. 1991 was my first IM year and I made quantum leaps in Olympic tri speed that year. OK, I was also 25, but there was literally no speed work...just a ton of IM volume and suddenly guys beating me by 7-10 minutes were behind me in Olympic tris.

But like speedwork, volume is great...."until it isn't" and with older guys it can take forever to dig out of that overtraining hole. Young guys can crawl out of that overtraining hole a lot quicker than the second or third decade masters athlete who THINKS his recovery potential is like it was when he was 25 (or he is on the Moats program, but that is another topic entirely).

Dave, congrats on the 40 min 10K in a tri. Pretty awesome!

Anecodotes are just that because there is not enough information to draw any conclusions. yet you draw conclusions.

I believe your claim is that you train a 10min/mile and race at 7 min/mile.

LSD does not stand for long slow distance. It stands for long steady distance. In the context of LSD it appears none of your runs is long thus they are not LSD runs. It is hard to know if your pace is steady or just slow.

Your 300' of hill is interesting. Running that at 10min/mile might be equivalent to 7min/mile (or better) on the flat.

You leave out the details of the rest of your training. I suspect that if you are actually training at 10min/mile (and equivalent on hills) that the rest of your life is assisting your running more than your run training.

At age 66, I try to balance philosophies of Coaches Thomas and Herrick.

Coach Thomas: "Do not go gentle into that good night . . . " ,

balanced by Coach Herrick: "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may . . . ",

but don't forget: "There's no fool like an old fool."