I am surprised nobody has commented on the difference in the amount of kicking in the video. There certainly was a reason that second length was faster than the first but it wasn't because the feet were breaking the surface. Count the number of kicks on each length....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nNMrrYNdU

i don't follow your post- are you saying that you can't have an effective 6 beat kick because you can't rotate your hips in time with your kick?

you can kick 2 beats badly/hard and you can kick 4/6 beats softly and effectively without messing with your stroke. there is a spectrum here.

Paulo,

Great for you to join in here. I appreciate your input.

I don't think my understanding of the kicking motion is fundamentally wrong. I would say my use of the term "knee snap" is misleading. Nowhere did I use the term "active knee snap" however. I use knee snap because that is one way to visually describe the motion, not intended as a description of what the swimmer should be actively pursuing. Bad wording on my part.

From the blog:

"Power from the kick comes partially from foot speed which comes mostly from knee snap which is driven completely by hip power. The hip and the knee have their timing respective to each other."

Sounds to me like I am describing just as you say, a "hip-based" motion. I also think you are reading a bit too much into my post. I have heard many coaches describe a proper kicking motion as visually similar to boiling water, and I think this is more misleading than my use of the term "knee snap" in the process of teaching an effective kick.

I think your description of the knee and ankle as "passive" structures is also misleading, at best. Passive here implying that they are not involved in the process at all, when in fact proper articulation of the knee and ankle is how the power that is generated in the hips is transmitted to the water. I take the use of "passive" to mean one of two thing. Either they follow limply behind the hips, or they are held as rigid structures. I don't believe you meant either of these. I think you recognize that there is some state in between flacid and rigid, call it supple, through which the knee and foot participate in the kick. No?

Also, since you didn't simply write passive, but instead used "essentially passive", I would ask you to explain a bit more as to what exactly that means in this case.

Body position is a two way street, espeically when a swimmer is following the "boiling water" advice. They may indeed have good body position if they stop trying to submerge the feet. Or they may have terrible body position in which case my blog post about kicking is not going to 'fix' them. This was not an article directly relating to body position.

I recognize the limitations of the advice in the blog. Those with poor body position most likely have an ineffective kick. Kicking with a board, using fins, kicking with intensity, kicking on your back are all ways to mitigate some of the effects of that bad position while allowing the swimmer to work on developing a more effective kick. Ceasing to focus on boiling water may allow the body position to improve spontaneously, while also allowing the swimmer to finally develop an effective kick. They might even find out they already have one, and just needed to bring it to the surface.

I can assure you I was kicking all out in each example. I made no effort to kick more or less in either case. There is reduced kick frequency in the boiling water length because it is harder to move your feet quickly when they are completely submerged.

I am also surprised nobody has commented on this sooner.

For a long time I assumed that I'd go faster if my kick didn't break the surface. I reasoned that aerated water offered less resistance therefore less propulsion. I also reasoned that by breaking the surface I'd generate no propulsion on the up-kick.

Over time I began to theorize that the 'up kick' I had hoped to gain propulsion from just pushed my legs downward.

I also noticed that when I did break the surface with my kick I went significantly faster. So even though it wasn't intuitive I came to the same conclusion as you regarding kicking.

The other problem is that I thought I was to be kicking from the hips with nearly zero knee joint movement. But how in the heck do you get your feet to break the surface using only the hip joint? I'd have to get my upper leg to arc backwards 20 degrees or so and that just seemed to pop my head/shoulders up. But if I articulate my knee more I can get the foot out of the water without going ape with my thigh.

I also have a very strong vastus medialis and kicking at the knee is both strong and efficient for me.

To top it all off, the other kicking style used to fatigue and CRAMP my hip flexors and hamstrings to no end. Using your proposed kicking method fixes that problem too.

It's just better in every way. If Paulo doesn't agree, he either misunderstands what you are saying or is just wrong.

I'm glad we agree.

When writing for an audience of beginner/intermediate swimmers, the way things are explained is decisive to the way swimmers will interpret the advice given. Talking about "knee snap" just reinforces the (wrong) idea that most beginner swimmers have of what constitutes a kicking action, and leads to excessive knee bending.

The best way to teach proper kicking technique is to have swimmers start by kicking with straight legs and slowly instruct them to "relax" the straight leg constraint. As they go through this learning process, they will slowly learn proper quad engagement during the motion, without consciously trying to "snap" their knees.

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everyone should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGk_TPzTGZM

slapping the water creates a hugely inefficient kick and keeping your feet totally submerged is most commonly going to be caused by low hips which in effect will cause you to use smaller muscles to kick.

phelps doens't slap the water, he doesn't totally submerge his feet...rather they stay near the surface, never totally breaking it.

another good watch would be ceaser cielo, i heard a rumor he could kick a 50 in 23 seconds

Well there you go.

I did not raise this question in my post above, but here is a good question(s) for Paulo (or anyone):

What muscle in the hip powers the kick? If the knee and foot are passive, where does the power come from?

I agree with the first part. Poor choice of words. Again, I thank you. Though before very long you may find yourself defending that assertion in the second part about the proper way to teach beginners to kick. Wanna change that to "one way" instead of "the best way?"

The one thing I am curious to hear is how we bridge the (large) chasm between the terms "essentially passive" in regards to the knee, and "proper quad engagement"

No.


I'm not big on "bridging" and I welcome the chasm between us. Once again, using language that conveys the important concepts I am trying to teach is the most important thing.

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Lol, you funny. I wasn't speaking of the chasm between us Paulo.

You are certainly using some confusing language however. It would be simple for a coach as smart as you to explain what you mean when on one hand hand you describe the knee as being "passive", and then a few posts later you are speaking of "proper quad engagement". Generally, when I engage my quads, my knee is no longer passive.

Anyway, I understand if you are too busy single handedly saving elite triathlon im America to clear up that small discrepency. Heck, I'm just thrilled to have you responding in paragraphs.

Between the bunch of you, I think I've learned something. Thank you, one and all. :)

I've sort of come to similar conclusions myself, watching a swim team practicing in the lanes beside mine on occasion. Their heels and ankles are often coming out of the water as they kick past me.

Damn straight.

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No, what I mean, is that you can't have hips provide the POWER for the kick (making the legs passive as Paulo suggests) in a 6-beat, because it would require some rotation that went counter to what the body was already doing in concert with the arm stroke. But, really, my point was that while muscles in the hips may "initiate" the kick, they don't power it. That is a good video IMO since it shows that his feet come high above the level surface of the water, but because of all the white water, it can appear that his feet remain submerged.


Most definitely I agree with you.

regards,
r.b.

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See the video posted above by Susan. His kicking disturbs the surface to such an extent, that the water surface is elevated above the level plane of the pool. This makes it look like his feet aren't breaking the surface, but in fact they really are riding high above it - it is hard to catch with all of that water going everywhere, but the backs of his feet really do catch some air.

r.b.

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It seems that we have 2 areas of disagreement: 1) theory of kicking biomechanics, and 2) how to teach swimmers to find the optimal level of knee bend. In terms of the theory, you state the following:

I have not polled the entire community of swimming experts out there, but at least one prominent expert on the subject, Ernie Maglischo, in what is the most comprehensive book on swimming technique and training (or at least the thickest), describes the propulsive parts of the down-beat as follows:

I submit that at least this one expert describes a kick that while INITIATED by the hip flexion, is in no way characterized by the leg muscles that are "passive". I think that if you have any references that describe your understanding of the consensus of swimming experts, you should share them. I also would be interested in seeing the references that convincingly demonstrate how human propulsion in the water is not kinetic chain based - I am not doubting you necessarily, just want you to truly take advantage of this opportunity to help me "learn something". Just stating that someone is wrong because they are at odds with YOUR belief of the consensus of experts is really not didactic.

As for teaching, you state the following:

So our approach is contrary to this, in that we advocate that you should not put any conscious constraint on knee motion -- let them bend, but practice kicking at high frequencies. We believe this will help to select the optimal knee bend. For what it's worth, I have tried both ways, the way that you teach is how it has been explained for years, and in my experience, it is about as effective as telling people to put rocks in their swim suit. I have successfully taught hundreds of swimmers, from small children, teenagers, collegiate swimmers, adult masters and triathletes - I have chosen my approach based on my experience with what actually works best.

In all of the hundreds of athletes that you have developed from beginner to elite swimmer, have you tried it the way I describe? If not, how do you know it's not better?

r.b.

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Reviving this old thread b/c it has some interesting discussion of the "theory and application of kicking". Personally, having swum since age 5 but never having been a strong freestyle kicker (my breaststroke kick is pretty decent:), my perception is that freestyle kicking is highly variable depending on a person's pulling ability and espec depending on their hip, knee, ankle, and even toe flexibility. In this often-viewed Phelps video, his toes flex like fins, so it is no wonder that he can kick and swim so fast:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nNMrrYNdU

Cheers,

Eric

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