Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect?

Mar 12, 07 11:17

Post #1 of 33 (6500 views)

I recently purchased a Large Equinox TTX 9.9 with the Project One Flying Ace custom pain scheme and after installing the wheel back after traveling in my back seat I noticed a scratch on the seat stay just above the cassette. To my dismay after some testing I realized that this scratch on my brand new bike was not caused by my mishandling but insufficient clearance between the chain and the frame. See picture below.

What I discovered was when you shift from the 11 tooth sprocket to the 13 tooth sprocket the chain slides over the 12 tooth sprocket causing the chain to scratch the frame. It was obvious that there is not enough clearance built into this area of the frame. I ended up taking my bike to the LBS for them to look at.

My LBS added a 1mm spacer between the bearing race of the hub and the dropout allowing more clearance for the chain, which temporary solves this problem. Then he called Trek Tech department to explain my problem. They were told that they are aware of this problem and said not to worry about it because the scratch is only paint deep.

Since then I have found other owners with this same scratch. The picture below is of another large frame for sale on e-bay, he called out the scratch in his post but thought that it was caused by his mishandling. I have discovered that this is only a problem on the large frames, and only occurs with a 11-23 cassette.

My opinions are:

1) It is dishonest to knowingly sell a bike that will get scratched the first time you switch gears. The Flying Ace paint scheme is an extra $500 and they are selling these custom pain schemes knowing they will get scratched.

2) The Tech departments answer is that the scratch is only paint deep, for how long? Have they tested it? Do they know that in ten years my chain is not going to completely cut into the tube? I think it could be possible.

3) If they know about this problem why don�t they send a spacer with the frame? Opps� Don�t forget to put the spacer on when you change your race wheels, scratch�.

4) I feel that all the models experiencing this problem should be replaced because it falls under Treks defect warranty and Trek should stop selling this model in a large until they get this problem fixed.

What are your opinions:

1) Is this considered a frame defect and should it fall under their warranty and be replaced?

2) If they are aware of this problem isn�t it dishonest to continue to sell this bike?

3) Shouldn�t they quit selling the large E-TTX until this problem is fixed?

I would like to say that I grew up in Madison and I have always been a huge Trek fan, I believe that they make many high quality products, but I think they are currently doing a disservice to their customers. With the exception of this problem this is still a great bike and I would not discourage anyone from getting a small or a medium but I would at least test the large before purchasing it.

[/url]

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 11:37

Post #2 of 33 (6452 views)

My Kestrel 500SCI was the same way. I just took a file to it and never gave it any thought.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 11:40

Post #3 of 33 (6442 views)

"They were told that they are aware of this problem and said not to worry about it because the scratch is only paint deep."

That's a top notch customer service response given the "custom" paint job.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 11:47

Post #4 of 33 (6415 views)

Definitely and clearly a defect which should be taken care of by the vendor.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 12:51

Post #5 of 33 (6317 views)

In Reply To:

I recently purchased a Large Equinox TTX 9.9 with the Project One Flying Ace custom pain scheme and after installing the wheel back after traveling in my back seat I noticed a scratch on the seat stay just above the cassette. To my dismay after some testing I realized that this scratch on my brand new bike was not caused by my mishandling but insufficient clearance between the chain and the frame. See picture below.

What I discovered was when you shift from the 11 tooth sprocket to the 13 tooth sprocket the chain slides over the 12 tooth sprocket causing the chain to scratch the frame. It was obvious that there is not enough clearance built into this area of the frame. I ended up taking my bike to the LBS for them to look at.

My LBS added a 1mm spacer between the bearing race of the hub and the dropout allowing more clearance for the chain, which temporary solves this problem. Then he called Trek Tech department to explain my problem. They were told that they are aware of this problem and said not to worry about it because the scratch is only paint deep.

Since then I have found other owners with this same scratch. The picture below is of another large frame for sale on e-bay, he called out the scratch in his post but thought that it was caused by his mishandling. I have discovered that this is only a problem on the large frames, and only occurs with a 11-23 cassette.

My opinions are:

1) It is dishonest to knowingly sell a bike that will get scratched the first time you switch gears. The Flying Ace paint scheme is an extra $500 and they are selling these custom pain schemes knowing they will get scratched.

2) The Tech departments answer is that the scratch is only paint deep, for how long? Have they tested it? Do they know that in ten years my chain is not going to completely cut into the tube? I think it could be possible.

3) If they know about this problem why don�t they send a spacer with the frame? Opps� Don�t forget to put the spacer on when you change your race wheels, scratch�.

4) I feel that all the models experiencing this problem should be replaced because it falls under Treks defect warranty and Trek should stop selling this model in a large until they get this problem fixed.

What are your opinions:

1) Is this considered a frame defect and should it fall under their warranty and be replaced?

2) If they are aware of this problem isn�t it dishonest to continue to sell this bike?

3) Shouldn�t they quit selling the large E-TTX until this problem is fixed?

It happens also with a 12-27 cassette!

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Please keep us updated.

Frank

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 13:14

Post #6 of 33 (6265 views)

In Reply To:

What are your opinions:

1) Is this considered a frame defect and should it fall under their warranty and be replaced?

2) If they are aware of this problem isn�t it dishonest to continue to sell this bike?

3) Shouldn�t they quit selling the large E-TTX until this problem is fixed?

[/url]

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes

My TT bike
BMC TM01

Last edited by: Tillquist: Mar 12, 07 13:29

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Bavarian_Frank] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 13:20

Post #7 of 33 (6249 views)

I�m sorry the information I stated about the 11-23 cassette is incorrect, I was thinking backwords. I have not tried it but I would think that the problem would be worse on a 12-25 because the smallest sprocket has a bigger diameter.

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [NYSLIM] [ In reply to ]

Mar 12, 07 13:36

Post #8 of 33 (6207 views)

In Reply To:

My Kestrel 500SCI was the same way. I just took a file to it and never gave it any thought.

Wow, you make me sound like a big baby. Not that I think it would even solve this problem but I just don�t think I want to take a file to a $3800 frame.

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 2:48

Post #9 of 33 (6096 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

My Kestrel 500SCI was the same way. I just took a file to it and never gave it any thought.

Wow, you make me sound like a big baby. Not that I think it would even solve this problem but I just don�t think I want to take a file to a $3800 frame.

What would be your preferred solution for this problem? Even if they give you a new frame it will have the same flaw.

My bike is at my lbs at the moment and he discusses the problem with Trek Europe.

Frank

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 4:53

Post #10 of 33 (6016 views)

this actually happens on a lot of bikes, I think I've seen three different bikes personally, maybe more. Happened on my Cervelo Prodigy when you put the wrong, or lets call it different wheelset on. Usually you can shim around it, or often it's not there until you put a new wheelset in thats spaced a bit differently.

In my opinion, yes it might be considered a design flaw, or maybe oversight is a better word, but it's so very very slight I can't imagine that Trek is going to modify the molds to correct it and I certainly don't think you need to worry about this affecting the frame for the worse. Like they said, paint deep, it'll never wear any deeper unless you somehow keep increasing that cassette size. Actually your chain already corrected the problem by removing the offending material and creating it's own clearance, problem solved.

I know it sucks for a shiny new toy to not be perfect, but they rarely are perfect and if it was me I'd just say screw it and go ride my new rocket ship:)

anyways good luck with the bike but I think i would just leave it be and focus more on all the other amazing design marvels that Trek has pulled off on that frame.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Tai] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 6:43

Post #11 of 33 (5922 views)

Regarding the bearing spacing, I believe that if you have the correct spacing this should ever happen. Maybe you�ve seen this happen so many times because this distance was never correct before installing the wheel. When you tighten your quick release the dropouts should barely move. This problem is happening with stock Bontrager wheels that should have the correct spacing for the frame.

I agree with you that this may not be much more then a scratch, but I expect this bike to be flawless. That is what the consumer is paying for, let�s not forget how much we are paying for a high end frame. I demand perfection! Which Trek has always delivered to me in the past.

For a sponsored athlete that gets a new bike every year or two this may not be a big deal, but I wont get a new bike for a long time. I am also worried of the possibility of it causing more damage to the frame over time.

The first scratch on a new bike does suck and I�m sure everyone can relate to that. I should probably say screw it and ride, but I feel that new consumers should know about this problem before they buy.

You�re right it is a pretty amazing design. Thanks for your input!

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 6:53

Post #12 of 33 (5907 views)

"I expect this bike to be flawless... I demand perfection!"

you got a great bike. you also got a first-generation bike. these are the kinds of things that happen when brand new models pop out of a mold. i understand your disappointment, but the file and the spacer will do the trick. to demand perfection is to invite disappointment. functionality might be a better goal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 7:19

Post #13 of 33 (5871 views)

While we all want things to be perfect, they never are. Further, I am sure trek never promised it would be. If any manufacturer was willing to do so there would be a money back guarantee rather than a warranty.

While I have no expertise in the area of bike warranties, I imagine that trek gave a limited warranty offering to repair or replace to correct defects in factory material or workmanship for a limited period of time while at the same time disclaiming all implied warranties. In making this type of warranty the promise [what the consumer is paying for] is not that it will be perfect but rather a recognition that it may well not be and that they will correct the issue the way they see fit. Further this type of warranty does not offer any type of protection if there is a design issue as opposed to a manufacturing or material issue. If they all have the same issue, it is a design characteristic rather than a defect in the product. There are some states with consumer statutes that offer additional protections but this is basically the case.

Regardless, it is an awesome bike and I think it would be a shame to let what is really a minor issue, you are bound to scratch it in other places also and it seems unlikely that this will actually damage the frame, become a negative experience. We all spend too much time on our bikes not to love them. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 7:29

Post #14 of 33 (5849 views)

I knew demanding perfection was going to cause me problems. I guess it�s not actually perfection I�m demanding but a correctly designed frame.

I am defiantly no expert when it comes to designing bike geometry so maybe you can help explain to me why this is even a problem. Why do they need to keep such tight clearances in this area? If the seat stay was offset 1mm would it make any difference?

Also, I would think that this clearance would be a standard clearance used on every model bike. It should be easy to check that you have the right amount of clearances from the solid model used to generate the frame, and a solid model simulating the cassette and chain in this position. This will clearly show an issue. There should be a standard checklist before finalizing the design of the bike. Like any manufacture does before the product is sent out.

Are you suggesting not to purchase a first-generation bike because of issues like this?

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Bavarian_Frank] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 7:39

Post #15 of 33 (5833 views)

"What would be your preferred solution for this problem? Even if they give you a new frame it will have the same flaw."

I think that Trek should recognize the issue and make the correct engineering changes to the large frames before continuing to sell it. Other temporary solutions would be to send a spacer with the bike or just to warn their customers that the frame is going to get scratched in this area.

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Last edited by: johnnyperu: Mar 13, 07 7:42

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 8:17

Post #16 of 33 (5787 views)

I can see that using a larger small cog is going to cause a worse problem, one that may well be more than "paint deep". I think it's very unwise, if not even ignorant, of a bike company to expect a high-end user to never put on a small cog larger than an 11.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 8:48

Post #17 of 33 (5755 views)

"Are you suggesting not to purchase a first-generation bike because of issues like this?"

yes. unless i had the requisite technical ability to correctly identify any problems with the bike at the point of purchase, i would stick to bikes that've been around for a year or two. this is especially the case if i'm the sort who demands perfection.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 13, 07 9:45

Post #18 of 33 (5681 views)

I will remember that next time I go to purchase a new bike. I was so excited that Trek was finally making a Tri-bike I had to get my hands on it. I only buy Trek, not because they always make the best product but because I think they are a good company and they do allot in the Madison area.

There is no way I would ever disagree with Slowman, but I do think that the bicycle industry should held accountable like any other industry and any issues with a new product should be addressed before more product is produced. Similar to a car manufacture issuing a recall for their new model. In order to ensure a profit manufactures must have a small amount figured into a new product incase an engineering change or a recall is needed.

I am an automation engineer and when I quote a custom machine some of the profit will always contains a certain percentage for engineering changes and waisted product. This amount may not always cover the entire cost of a error but it will help decrease some of the cost associated.

If done properly Trek should have also figured some error cost into the cost of the frame. This should be another reason why a low run model should cost more then a high production model. If they did not figure this value into the cost of the bike then I think it should be adsorbed elsewhere to ensure they are supplying the best model possible.

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 7:10

Post #19 of 33 (5538 views)

If the scratch is only paint deep, then it shouldn't be worried about, especially being in a such a low-visibility area. However, I do agree that Trek should stop selling these large frames with the defect and correct the problem on the manufacturing end. It may be expensive, but that is part of the price to having a pristine, top-of-the-line product. If in the future the scratch becomes more than paint deep, most manufacturers carry a lifetime warranty on frames against manufacturer defects, and you could possibly swap frames for one that has had the defect corrected.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [johnnyperu] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 7:50

Post #20 of 33 (5500 views)

Sounds like you already found the solution though with the addition of the spacer. i agree that it sucks, and also agree that in a perfect world this shoudl not happen, but I also woudl expect that the solution woudl be a simple one (a spacer) and not a mold revision.

perhaps when Trek sells that frame they should put a disclaimer on it that says "when running X cassette you must also install X spacer to insure proper clearence"

Perhaps the better question is when you (or the LBS) built the bike and supplied non trek parts, ie wheels, casstte, chain, etc. why was the clearence on the lowest gear not checked? Again, I agree that this sucks, but if the solution was as simple as a spacer and checking for proper adjustment of build problem solved.

Just my .02

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 10:23

Post #21 of 33 (5434 views)

[reply]"[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 2][font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][black][size 2]I expect this bike to be flawless... I demand perfection!"

you got a great bike. you also got a first-generation bike. these are the kinds of things that happen when brand new models pop out of a mold. i understand your disappointment, but the file and the spacer will do the trick. to demand perfection is to invite disappointment. functionality might be a better goal.
[/size][/black][/font][/size][/black][/font][/reply]

I would think that at the very least....Trek would do the filing or sanding at the plant before it goes to paint......they do know that there is a problem........ Just a thought...

I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Bladed] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 11:34

Post #22 of 33 (5378 views)

"Trek would do the filing or sanding at the plant before it goes to paint......they do know that there is a problem"

i very seriously doubt trek is just ignoring whatever problem there might be. i'd expect that trek is doing something like you suggest, but they can't do it retroactively. future bikes will not have this issue.

imagine what would happen if a car company had to take every car back to the factory when there was a recall. you just can't do that. the retailers aren't equipped to handle this, in the way that car dealerships do. so for this, which is a minor, cosmetic, easily fixable (by the end user) repair (a little sand paper, a little testers paint, in order to make it perfect), it's not unreasonable for the customer to just suck it up a little. i know a lot of people will disagree with me, and i respect their opinions, but that's just how i see it.

i have a chrysler 300. the thing that the sun visor clips into broke. then the one on the passenger side broke. i've had to buy two new ones, two of many more i'll have to buy. chrysler built a bad sun visor clip. it's not a warranty item, it's not a recall, they're cheap. so what? i like the car. chrysler made a mistake. they'll fix it eventually for future editions of the car.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 11:49

Post #23 of 33 (5350 views)

I agree with you Dan.......to do a "Factory Recall" would be stupid for something like that......

I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 11:54

Post #24 of 33 (5345 views)

I wouldn't buy an American car, partly because the plastics they use in the interiors are so terrible. I quite like the 300 otherwise but given the resources of car companies it's not unreasonable to expect something resembling quality, at least once you're out of the budget end of the market.

Bike companies don't have the resources and they all have some kind of issues. The danger is that some issues would be enough to dissuade a consumer from considering that company's products again. I think Trek, being large for a bike company, might be held to a higher quality standard than a smaller company and that's a danger for them here as this seems a pretty silly mistake. On the other hand, the bike in question is probably a niche product for them in the overall picture so maybe they won't be that concerned.

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

Re: Trek Equinox TTX Frame defect? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 15, 07 11:58

Post #25 of 33 (5333 views)

I had a similar problem with my Chrysler Seabring, the vinyl door covers would fall off. I knew another Seabring owner and her panels fell off also. Guess what�It got recalled. If enough people experience the same problem then it probable will get recalled. But if you are the only one manhandling your visors then they probably won�t get recalled. LOL

It may take some time until the manufacture finds out that the problem where as Trek has known about this problem for at least 4 months if not longer. Do you think that they are not required to do anything until the next model year? There is still the whole year left.

It is also hard to compare bicycle manufacturing to car manufacturing because of the car manufactures high volumes. It is very expense to introduce an engineering change to an automated assembly line, I know I�m an automation engineer for the automobile industry. I�m sure Trek still makes most of these low volume frames by hand therefore it would be less expensive to introduce an engineering change.

http://www.excellentengineering.net

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.