1. You're looking for "Were rules...", not "Where rules..."

2. Do you know what PM stands for? I hope you got the sender's permission to post that...

3. What kind of witch hunt are you on? Look, we get it. The rules are the rules and everyone should follow them. Dave, you either care so passionately about rules you either must become an official or get out of the sport. Either way, shut the fuck up about it already. Seriously, we get it. You think rules should be followed. Don't "look at" becoming an official, get off your ass and do it. Or train more than 6 hours a week. Or find some other way to occupy your time besides flooding the message board every time you perceive any possible infraction and getting all high, mighty and indignant about it.

Sounds like the head referee exercised his discretion. Also sounds like the full story isn't here. In my book, Charlie Crawford is top notch and a straight shooter. I'd suggest contacting Charlie direct if you have questions about this.

Amen, brother.

---

http://achukumba.blogspot.com/

[reply]Sounds like the head referee exercised his discretion. Also sounds like the full story isn't here. In my book, Charlie Crawford is top notch and a straight shooter. I'd suggest contacting Charlie direct if you have questions about this.[/reply]
Not that I want to be in the middle of this, but as I read it, the head refereee can use his discretion to change from a time penalty to a DQ - not ignore the infraction!?! - my $.02

All I can say is that I hope that you don't become an official, you definately don't have what it takes to marshall a race. You have no idea what happened out there, and you with your little rule book wants exercise your power, and act the big man out there. It little people like you that get some power that ruin many races. I applaude Charlie for what he did, and here is why.

Many times in my career, probably over a dozen times, I would be first out onto the bike, and get sent off course by the race marshalls, or a poorly or non marked course. Asd a pro athlete, you have a contract with a race director that you will show up to their race, having spent 100's of hours training, and put on the best show you can. Often times it is a written contract with start money and incentives, otherwise it is implied as a pro that you come to race. It is their responsibility the lay out a course that all can follow. Yes, you can preview a course, but things often change last minute, and if a turnaround cone is missing in the middle of the road, and no one is there to turn you, what the hell do you do??? You keep going until someone tells you otherwise, that's what. Under todays rules I would have been DQ'd in all the races that I went off course on, even though I went longer than the rest. I lost a lot of prize money because of race director fuck ups, but why should I be the one losing if I did nothing wrong. They broke their promise to me, they should feel the pain. ANd this happened only twice in may career where race directors took responsibility for unmarked courses. First one was actually mine. I put on over 60 races in my career, and one day a volunteer didn't show up for his corner. Some of the pros went about a minute off course, it was corrected quickly, and others made the right turn. After the race I being a pro who has been in that situation many times, felt like shit. So I deducted the minute from the others times, and whatever place they were next to, I doubled the place and doubled the prize money. Two 3rd places, two 4th places, ect.

Later on in about 1993 at WIldflower, Terry had the exact same problem on the run. No tunraround marker at the 9 mile point, and no one there set up to tell everyone this is the spot to turn. After the race he had about 6 pros that were all over the place, and when it was over everyone was screaming. I told him what I did, and he upped the prize money about 10 grand, and doubled up many of the places where guys went off course. As in my race, all went home happy, and it built huge goodwill between the races and the pros.

My point here is that to throw out the lead 8 guys on what was obviously a race course screw up, is draconian. Those guys work hard at their profession, and to have some idiot take it away from them on a technicality is moronic.They did nothing wrong, the race director/marshall put them on the wrong course. It is akin to Lance avoiding that crash with Beloki and riding across the field to get back on the race. Technically against the rules, but the officials looked at it sensibley, and made the right call. Other riders had the honor to leave it be too, as I would hope other pros here who made the turn would too. If it changed a place, then the race director needs to step up and cash these guys out, but from what I've seen of the tapes, not your guessing, 20 to 30 seconds was lost, and it wouldn't have changed much. Things are not always black and white, and good on Charlie for making the right call.....

[reply]All I can say is that I hope that you don't become an official, you definately don't have what it takes to marshall a race. You have no idea what happened out there, and you with your little rule book wants exercise your power, and act the big man out there. It little people like you that get some power that ruin many races.
[reply]

All I have to say is "OUCH!!!!!" That's going to leave a mark!!

Post of the month, Monty!!!!

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

Why was the PMer dissapointed in Greg Bennett?

He was first to the line and had nothing to do with the course.

Considering that Charlie would not allow certain helmets to be used by Pros at the Life Time Triathlon because they were missing the correct certification stickers, I have a hard time believing he just totally ignored a different rule at NY. There's got to be more to the story..

No offense but this is one of the stupidest things I've seen on this board. Now I don't care what happens to my 8th place but as been established the lead group gained about 25s by the unintentionally cutting the course. That would then get Tim from 9th to 8th and still more than 3.5min from the victory. Yes it's every athletes responsibility to know the course but this situation was very confusing and since it really didn't change the outcome I definitely think the officials made the right call. Why would Greg not accept the victory? It'd look worse for the sport if the top 8 would be disqualified because of in this case a minor inscident that didn't really change anything so I think judging intent and being flexible to different scenarios is more important. I think you're overreacting and reading way too much into this.

---

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Eventually people are going to catch on that you are a troll, albeit a clever one.

[reply]Eventually people are going to catch on that you are a troll, albeit a clever one.[/reply]

You're giving him way too much credit

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

Go get em' Barney:

---

_________
kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

The transition area was a total mess. I went there the night before to "learn" the course and to me it looked like the correct way was to go straight up the hill, where the first few pros went. I started 6 minutes back, so they had us going the correct way by then, but I was shocked to see that this was the way they sent us. I agree with the others that the RD handled this in the best possible way.

I agree with you, Monty. Thanks for taking the time for the thoughtful, well-written post.

I've been in situations where I was led off course by pace cars before. In one race, they had a police cruiser as the pace car. At one point, we passed a little side street that happened to have the same name as one of the other streets on the course. The cop stopped, made a U-turn, and made me follow him back to this little road. The little road went down a steep hill and then dead-ended in a bunch of gravel. After hoofing it back up the hill, I rejoined the course just in time to watch the second and third place guys fly by.

In this case, I did my due diligence the night before and I knew the course did not go down that hill. But what I was supposed to do - ignore a guy who's packing a gun?!? It certainly wouldn't have been fair to DQ me!

The problem I have with Dave's one man crusade for the black and white interpretation of the rules is that it completely ignores the spirit of competition. Of course there are rules in there to maintain fairness that should be rigorlessly enforced (drafting, blocking, etc). And the rules designed for keeping events safe for everyone shouldn't be debated. But to blindly enforce every single nuance of the rulebook without understanding the particular aspects of how a race may have unfolded (particularly those that are influenced by variables not controlled by the individual racers) is just silly and ruins the fun of the sport for everybody.

I wish more officials were like Charlie Crawford and made sure that the punishments that they dole out actually fit the crime. His handling of this year's nationals race was top notch with one of the cleanest races I've ever been in and he didn't need to go around finding lots of tick-tacky fouls to justify his worth to the sport.

If Dave and selected other officials are unwilling to buy into the concept that there needs to be grey areas in the rulebook and some flexibility to make sure the penalty fits the crime, then perhaps we need to pressure USAT to modify the language in the rulebook accordingly.

---

"You're giving him way too much credit"

---

Agreed. Walks like a duck. Must be a QUACK. See my post from a few days ago: "Are H20Fun and GregX one in the same person?"

Wow, one non personal attack post asking the same question I asked. Why is asking a question answered with personal attacks?

So, for my education, I am just trying to understand how a referee could make a call like this. I know some of you dont care about the rules. I also know some of you care as much as I care about the rules. You will not see me attack folks who attack me since when is it wrong to ask a question about something that happened? I havent pointed the finger at anyone, I am just asking for facts. My experience in llife is when responses to questions are personal attacks, there usually is something to hide, but I may be wrong.

Oh well, none of these comments change that I love this sport, am willing to ask about things that may have opportunities to improve, and may be willing to become an official to put my time where my heart is.

So I still ask. If the data is true that some racers did not do the course correctly, how was there not a time penalty, even though the results look like nothing would change? Sorry if this is just being too honest, but when Zach loses first place for putting his bike in the wrong place even though it did not impact the outcome of the race, and gets a penalty by the letter of the law in the rules, but then it seems another letter of the law in the rules is not followed, this just goes against all the inputs I have received from USAT officials. I am NOT saying whats right or wrong. I am just asking to try and help educate me on how the rules are enforced, which I hope will help me in the future if I get in a position like this and know what to do based on how it was handled in the past.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

25% of the pro field in NYC are regular posters on this forum - Bjorn, Jonas, and myself. NONE of us has complained about what happened here. So I don't see what business you have. The race, and any infractions that may or may not have occured, are literally, and figuratively, our business, yet we are all about 1/1000th as upset as you are.

Beyond that, I will echo the sentiments of another poster that PM = PRIVATE message. Especially since the PM comes from a pro athlete, you could have a very real affect on his future by posting it. If I had been the one that had sent you that message, I'd be livid to see it on the front page.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Come on Bjorn...we all know that the lead group would have bonked out of T2 if they had to do the extra 25 seconds on the bike :-)

I have JUST asked a question. I have NOT said what I believe is right of wrong. And what I believe means nothing.

I am just trying to understand how Zach can have a USAT official take away his first place in a race for having his bike a few spots off, and it did NOT impact the results. And, then I hear that judgment can be used as in this case.

So, if you can help me understand. I am NOT looking for black and white. I am trying to understand how in one case its okay to be black and white and take a win away from a person, but in the other case where the results would not have changed at all, the rule was not enforced.

I have NO crusade. I just love to asked questions to try and understand. So, if anyone can help me here, I am doing nothing more than wondering.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And you assume I posted that without asking first. Making assumptions is not always a good thing to do.

Which is why I am just asking questions. I have no idea what happened, or what was done was right or wrong. Just asking. Sorry this simple asking for data is getting some so upset. I just do not see why.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why is asking a question answered with personal attacks?



Because you attacked the lead 8 men riders. It may not be obvious to you, but advocating to throw them out of the race ,where they make their livings, is an atack. Look at the tenor of all you responses, no one is agreeing with you, does that not make you wonder about your black and white stance?? DO you have no sympathy for those 8 guys who did nothing wrong themselves??? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute if you can, and understand how frustrating it would have been if they were all DQ'ed. If it is education you are truly after, then read these responses very carefully, and try and understand the nature of the situation. It is not in the rule book on how to deal with everything that may come up in a race, and it takes a thoughtfull person to sort out what is really the right thing to do in a paticular situation. Charlie has done that here, and once again I applaude him.....

H20,

You can't go around reposting a PM (private/personal message). If you do not have permission to retransmit the message you are doing damage. If you do have permission then say so.

You should edit your original post and pose it as a hypothetical

--gary

Monty, show me where I said anything about what happened. I posted a comment that was sent to me, and had permission to repost.

Agreeing with what? I havent said anything, so how could anyone agree or disagree with me? Show me where I made a statement. Everything I have attempted to do is ask a question.

Even the rules state that unless there is an advantage, this is not DQ. So, I would never say a DQ. I have said NOTHING, just asked a question.

How did I attack anyone? Why is this so touchy which is one of the more interesting questions to me.

Oh well, in my business, we get paid to ask the tough questions like I better make sure a product you buy does not break or kill you.

Again, sorry if somehow I got folks upset since I am just wondering why Zach lost a race because the letter of the law was followed in the rules. Maybe the only answer I will get is there is no answer, a call is made on the spot. I can live with that, but I still strive for fairness to all folks in all races at all ability levels. Maybe too high a goal, but thats the one I have.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You suffer from Crusader Syndrome. I say we ship you to Jerusalem...