legendary

I's been my contention for years, that with road bikes, it's arguably impossible to tell any difference between bikes when they are set up identically.

I'm talking Frame A vs Frame B, both with same fit points, groupset, bars, wheels, tires etc. In a proper blind test you can't tell one from the other.

What you can tell is tire pressure! Even just say 3-5 psi will make a considerable difference with perceived confort/difference between bikes. The difference that you perceive is from things like 'seeing' a straight fork, seeing gel inserts somewhere, frame size, set post length, etc etc. Your eyes quickly tell you if you should expects something.

I must say I love your fairly successful attempt at doing it truly blind. From what differences you perceived, I wonder how much you got from small differences in fit, or differences in bikes (groupset, wheels or whatever)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

there was no difference in wheels.... we reused the same set of wheel for each test...as for components...we lock both bike in a single gear so group should have very little influence. Perhaps not?

so I was down to simple frame. But what was very suprising to me was the state of comfusion I was in..... I could hardly with any certitude see differences. And 5 days ago in a normal road test....I was in love with the R3 and complaining of the harshness of the S3....

Perception.....not so accurate.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Too funny.

Anyway, good luck deciding now dude....Small differences, lots of discussion- a typical analytic gear guy's purchase dilemma.

My guess is you'd be happy with either if the fit coordinates are good.

j

Article written by Damon Rinard .. http://www.cervelo.com/...able-difference.html

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what? no pics of you actually on the bike with that "helmet"?

you know what they say -- pics or it didn't happen :-)

I remember years ago reading an article in a magazine (remember those?). It was about the famous Jackie Stewart doing some tire testing for Ford.

On the same day, he sat in the car and just drove. (he happened to be testing what tires they should supply on the Ford Thunderbird, ooooooo how the mighty have fallen). He would drive on a set of tires for a set number of laps of the test track then pull in. The crew would change wheels while he sat in the car. Next test, another test, mix in the ones from the previous test, and generally try and make sure it was randomized. Ford was apparently blown away by how accurate he was at determining which tires he'd tested before and how remarkably identical his times and impressions were of the various tires. He was able to perceive subtle changes in pressure, rubber compound etc, incredibly accurately and repeatably.

Most people can't tell with that level of accuracy. It's a lot like being a wine drinker, but not a semelier. They do it all the time, we do it once a week and by comparison, just chug it down. The same happens with bikes I think. I think a trained, full time bike tester could tell differences, but as much as we all think we are different and experts, I don't think any of us can actually tell. And if we can tell a difference, we couldn't determine with any accuracy what is causing the difference.

As a well timed example, I have ridden quite a bit ( but not fast) since I started cycle commuting 25km each way to school, when I was 14. Now I'm 53 and commute 13km each way to work every day. I've had about 20 bikes in that time and now I have 11 in my quiver. This past weekend I swapped out my saddle and wheels. My training wheels had finally died after 80,000km. The saddle was worn thin, so I swapped out that with the wheels. The wheels are almost brand new, as is the saddle. When riding, everything starts out fine, but then slowly a sound becomes apparent. It starts with a click, but finishes with a clunk. It happens at the same part of the pedal stroke. Nothing is hitting (like a wheel magnet). Even being a reasonable bike mechanic and mechanical engineer, and knowing that the noise only started when I changed the saddle and wheels. It is resonating through the frame and is clearly audible. I'm pretty sure it's either wheel or saddle related (since that's what I changed recently, and the noise started right after the change) I can't determine where the noise is coming from. I've removed the wheels, even though the noise isn't related to wheel rotation and no improvement. I'm now suspecting the saddle and will remove, inspect and re-install the saddle with lotsa lube on everything, this weekend and see.

Still, just like telling the difference between two frames, determining the source of the click/clunk is very very difficult.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Love it!

Also interesting how easy it was to get some interesting results.

brilliant!
it seems to me from your results that you are actually able to tell the difference and the r is indeed more comfortable than the s, it just took you a bit to get the calibration right - on the last run you picked the r as being the most comfortable. a few thousand more test runs required to be statistically meaningful though! does seem to indicate that the difference is small and not as obvious as you had thought and the s is not inherently a harsh ride

Nice experiment.

Someone needs to bump this thread every time someone starts talking about frames and ride quality. Nice work.

the mechanic where thinking of playing a prank on me by adding a 3rd bike. They had a S5 in the store....

But yes, I would like to re run the test with a bit more organisation. Do perhaps 10-15 runs. What this experiement show me is that....more testing is needed, yes, I might have been able to find the most comfy bike in those 2.

Another question came up....can you really honest feel stiffness of a bike and stiffness of the front end? does cornering ''blindly'' would show the R3 stiffer from end over the S3? I didn't had the guts to push it today.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

that helmet set up is so you.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Just another reason you are my coach!

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Really nice job

This is excellent - both for taking the time to do this and for accepting the results. Well done.

VERY cool...and that's a very clever solution to the "blinding"!

You know, the mechanic could have really screwed with you if he'd wanted by playing with the tire pressures ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Based on the fact that the geometries are identical, I'd bet you'd have the same problems trying to discern any cornering differences.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Spotted the gloves on the 3rd picture for blinding even the hands!

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Curious whether "can't tell the difference in vibration" on 300 meters of rough pavement is the same as feeling the same level of tiredness after 4.5 hrs in the saddle. What kind of vibration do you feel most? What kind of vibration would beat you up? Are they the same?

Give in the frame isn't necessarily the same as less air in the tires. Don't forget there is a "sweet spot" of tire pressure for the least rolling resistance. Are you willing to sacrifice that sweet spot to overcome the frame's vertical rigidity? 5psi less pressure will have a meaningful impact on rolling resistance.

Is it possible having a rather uncomfortable full helmet with an annoying "cardboard yoke" would affect one's ability to detect fine differences in bike comfort? I know if I was riding like that, I can't get myself to concentrate on feeling the comfort differences of the bike.

That being said, the bending stiffness of different shaped metal and composite tubing is thoroughly described in engineering textbooks from decades ago (maybe centuries ago). Is 3mm-5mm meaningful to you?

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It's not the same, but I can ride the same route twice with the same bike, and not feel the same at the end.

IMO, the longer the ride duration, the more day to day physical body differences will matter. It will take more trips to try and weed that out.

great blind test.
how much do you think the gloves influenced the test ? ( i mean its a totally different felling cycling with those gloves and no gloves )

I've loved reading this and the other thread you started.

I'd love to see it repeated with the S3 or R3 vs a nice lugged steel too. If there is really a way to feel flex/stiffness/comfort, it would be on a steel bike.

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