Gary, thanks for coming by. I'm guessing from when the hand has started moving back and is at the level of the top of head, to around the bottom of sternum. Before and after you'd be using smaller muscles

I feel that most of my strength occurs at the junction of the front and rear quadrant as you are calling it. My fingertips are pointing downward towards the bottom of the pool.

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Yep, I agree with this as well.

That is about 18 inches, Paul. Care to narrow it down more?

It sounds like you are only giving to option front or back quadrant?

Do you perform better push-ups with your hand in front of your head or under the chest .

That said, the power is easier to apply in the back espically for beginners that don't float well.

Good swimmers apply the power to the front quadrant to keep them streamline, increase dps, and keep power constant. ( not that it's more power out front it's just better power then beginners.

The biggest power point would be when you lift your head to breath.
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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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I'd say most power is developed in the 2nd 25% of the pull.

1st quarter of the pull, the arm is too extended so would be 3rd most powerful. 2nd quarter is full power. 3rd quarter is probably 2nd most powerful, and the 4th quarter is mostly ornamental.

I think that while the last quarter of the pull is the weakest and of little actual benefit in propulsion, I think why so many coaches work on getting swimmers to finish all the way back, is because of the benefits elsewhere. Specifically, I think that by pushing all the way back (say brushing your thigh with your thumb) is that it tends to force people to keep their front hand out front longer. This improves overall efficiency/drag reduction, and was first understood by Froude, the English engineer way back in the 1840's. He was the first person to quantify why long boats go faster than short boats, all things considered. "Froude numbers" are still used in engineering today! While many coaches are good swimmers, or can at least coach swimmers to be faster, their actual understanding of biomechanics and engineering (actually quantifying changes to stroke mechanics) is pretty limited IMHO. For example, how many coaches have actually been involved with flume testing of swimmers, and got actual numbers to prove X or Y?

With water being notionally 1000 times denser than air, and a humans ability to produce power being particularly limited, efficiency/drag reduction is the most vital consideration for all but the top swimmers. Power production or where the power is produced within a stroke is way less important than drag reduction.

If you don't think efficiency is important, then why do any of us ride tri bikes or at least use aero bars? Even with relatively low density air, it's well demonstrated that with a given amount of power, riding a bike in the aero postion (ie aerodynamically more efficient) is faster. The same applies in water, although with the increased density of water, efficiency is even more important. Too bad the swim is so short :-)

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TriDork

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Just to throw in some more facts to consider, the swimmer's body speed is fastest (in a stroke cycle) when the hand is at the end of the back quadrant (fully extended) and the body speed is slowest when the hand is about one foot in front of the shoulder ...or at about the top of the head. Does that change your opinion about where the power is coming from?

If I ignore changes in ability to generate power by drag changes as the body rotates, I think it must occur when the entire arm is perpendicular to the flow of the body flowing in the water. That is, 90% down to the body's movement. At this point, there is maximum catch from the entire arm and, I believe, maximum access to shoulder & back muscles to power the stroke. Prior to this point and after, you have <100% catch and up to 100% musculature access.

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Such a Bad Runner

From stroke analysis loooong ago at the OTC in CO Springs. We did pool exit repeats working on this. In the deep end of the pool, we placed hands about 6" apart on the deck, but tried variations from 2"-2', and lifted ourselves vertically out of the pool. The strongest (a lot was based on feeling) part of that lift out = your strongest power point(s). This was typically at 90+ degrees from prone and utilized multiple muscle groups. The start and end of these pull-outs, typically the weakest part of the stroke, showed where we needed strength training and forced proper hand & forearm angle during the stroke cycle.

Front quadrant. Based on my n=1 observation that it is easier to achieve the first half of a wide grasp pull up, than it is the last half.

Geez I love it when you show up here Gary wish you would do it more!

I have no idea. I know when I *feel* my paddle is accelerating at it's fastest. Is that the most powerful? If I say yes to that assumption then I feel that time would be when my paddle is definitely past my shoulder(so I'm definitely out of my catch and well into my pull), but somewhere b/t my sternum and belly button?

Will be very interested to hear what you have to say in the end.

I'm gonna guess the most powerful point is from the bottom of your ribs to your hips. However, that is just where you can generate the most power... not that you can get that power transferred into forward motion. You can't efficiently push water during that part of the stroke. Just a wild guess with the assumption this is a bit of a trick question.

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Then I would go with the 12 inches starting at your lips. The human body should be the same across all sports, and I'd say in XC skiing it's the same 12 inches or so where you get the most power out of your body. Speed is different from power. You might actually be going slow at one moment, be applying more power and then by the time the power has "come off" the body is moving faster.

There aren't.

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Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

If you broke the pull into quarters, I would have to think it would be the 3rd quarter. I don't seem to be able to get much grasp on the water in the last quarter but I am a poor swimmer.

ooooo this is fun.

i think of swimming the same way i think about rowing, and that was predominantly based on several years of experience + a basic understanding of physics.

so --

agreeing on a couple of things. in a boat, the shell moves at it's absolute fastest at the release of the blade from the water, as the shell is gliding along in the water without the drag of 2/4/8 blades in the water (this is equivalent to the hand exiting the water at the end of the second quadrant). similarly, the boat is moving at it's slowest at the catch... the boat is decelerating from the moment the blades come out of the water, through the recovery, as 1/2/4/8 bodies move in a direction opposite the movement of the boat, and the blade is dropped into the water. this is similar in position to where you, Gary, describe the slowest moving body speed. the exact differences in timing are nuances based on some of the individual traits of the two sports.

from a power/speed standpoint, i'll look at vectors. any water that is not moved in a direction parallel to the body is considered "wasted" energy. i put wasted in parenthesis because it's necessary, but it's not efficient (but there isn't really any other option). i'm going to divide the quadrants you provided into 2 more groups (so that we have 4... quadrants). quadrant 1, the catch, your hand is primarily moving water in a downward direction. this is the beginning of the engagement of the water, and it's important for a lot of energy/power to be used to ensure that the swimmer's hand/arm is engaging the water, and that it won't fall through. quadrant 2, you are starting to move a greater portion of water parallel to your body... the moment when your fingers are pointed straight down at the floor is when all of the water you are moving is moving parallel to your body, and thus, no energy is being exerted to move water in a direction that is not conducive to speed. in quadrant 3, you've now passed the point of maximal efficiency of water moving, so i imagine a lot of swimmers are losing connection with the water. additionally, from this point, you are starting to move a greater portion of water vertically as well as horizontally, so your efficiency is decreasing. quadrant 4 is the same as 1, except the opposite direction of power, and you've continued to lose connection.

the reason why immediately upon exiting the water, your body is at its fastest, is because the decrease in drag of only having 1 arm in the water, as well as the fact that the other arm is probably moving through quadrant 2.

all that said, i haven't answered your question, because your asking for most powerful portion, wo/r/t vectors or body speed. so to answer that, i'll say it's quadrant 2 (you've at this point bent your arm, and are moving your arm towards being completely vertical through the water).

sorry for my ramblings. would love to hear your thoughts on my thoughts, Gary.

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@adamwfurlong

Based on this info, it's undoubtedly the front as it takes more power to get the ship (or barge!) up to speed than it does to keep it at speed. I think this is where most adult onset swimmers could spend most of their focus as most of us are applying our greatest power downward in the water. Time to work on some flexibility and technique!

FTW!

Thanks for posting the question.
Because max speed would also be driven by the most powerful stage of the torso rotation, I would say the twelve inches that begin at the waist and ends at about the top of the thigh.

I'd say it depends on your stroke. Different strokes for different folks.

For me, its probably the time between when my hand/forearm passes below my chest and then down to my waist. The so-called "climbing over a wall" motion. But i'll have to give it some thought during my next session to be sure....

The push off from the wall, for me ;-)

Most interested in the real answer to this question. I sense that for a good swimmer with an EVF catch the answer will be further towards the front quadrant than for a swimmer with a poor catch (ie, me).

R

Thinking on, and based on this, I'd say that the answer is when your hand is about one foot in front of the shoulder. Two things make me think this -

First is Newton's 2nd Law, or F=ma. Where force is proportional to acceleration.

Second is the principle of simple harmonic motion, where the acceleration (and therefore net force required to create that acceleration, see above) is greatest when the speed is least, and lowest (zero) when the speed is highest.

Obviously a person isn't a spring, but if a swimmer goes through phases of acceleration and deceleration then there is some kind of a harmonic thang going on. A good swimmer of course maintains their speed with as little acceleration and deceleration as possible, helped by the fact that we have two arms! And I am transliterating "power" as "force".



Could be wrong of course. If I win, do I get free stroke correction with Gary Hall Sr?!!

Rich

When the hand is at the end of the back quadrant it is the point of least drag while and when the hand is about one foot in front of the shoulder it is the point of most drag.

Because of that one may expect to see the highest and lowest speeds at those two points.

As for the most powerful point in the underwater pull?...I would say that I would be able to produce the most power while my hand passes my belly button but I don't think it's the most effective there. The most effective place would be between my nose and belly button.

jaretj

It's all about the front quadrant.