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Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon
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Hello All,

Thought I would pop in to let you know about a study we just published out of The University of Exeter. It has some implications for how you train and race.

For a bit of background, there are two important things you need to be aware of: The critical power (CP) and the W'. You can read a bit about the CP in an article I posted here. For the sake of simplicity, think of the CP as the "threshold" you feel. It's that point at which you realize that you are near your highest sustainable power output, and beyond which you intuitively know going any harder will make you fatigue much sooner. When you proceed above the CP, you begin to use up something called the W' ("W-prime"), or what was previously called the "anaerobic work capacity". You can think of this like a battery. When you go above your CP, it the battery gets used up. When you drop below CP, it gets recharged...very, very slowly. The problem is that if you use up this battery completely, you feel terrible and end up soft pedaling...or walking...or dog paddling (the D' is the equivalent number for running or swimming). You get the idea.

What we wanted to see was what would happen during intermittent exercise. In other words, if we put athletes in a situation where they had to go above CP for some period of time, and then gave them a bit of recovery at different power outputs, would the speed of that recharge change? We also wanted to see what effect fitness had. In other words, did people with higher CP's recharge more quickly than people with lower CP's?

It turned out that the recovery happens quicker at easier power outputs, and that it also happens quicker if you have a high CP. However, the most instructive part is this: Even the fittest person we had (CP=351W) would take 26 minutes to totally recharge their "battery" of W', and that is if they spent those 26 minutes soft pedaling at 20W. For athletes who were not at such a high level, it would take longer than 31.5 minutes.

The take home message is this. If you are involved in any sort of event that is going to require you to exercise for a long time, you need to severely limit the time you spend above your critical power. Every time you use up some of the W', you are creating a debt that takes a long time to repay. You only want to go there when you absolutely have to, and then only for the minimum amount of time possible.

If you'd like to read a slightly more detailed account using the example of beer, rather than a battery, you can check out this article.

Otherwise, I hope this blurb was helpful to you, and I hope it will convince you to take extreme care when you are planning your pacing strategy on race day!

Cheers,

Phil

--

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
Last edited by: Philbert: Mar 7, 12 13:51
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for this. I'll be sure to let people fly past me on the hills in future races...
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [beebs] [ In reply to ]
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beebs wrote:
Thanks for this. I'll be sure to let people fly past me on the hills in future races...

indeed, I placed about 5th overall instead of 7th overall in a recent duathlon because I did exactly that - let two guys drop me on a long, headwind hill.

they both paid for it later.

depending on the duration of the event, you certainly do not want perfectly even power the whole time, but the amount you want to raise you power uphill is a lot less than most people will do naturally.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Seems really important for a sprint tri since a full battery of AWC or W' is going to be very useful for the 5k.
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to paraphrase my sig line here:

You can never have a good enough FTP.
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff. It's interesting to note the time to fully recover. I'd be interested to know the rate of recovery. Is it linear?

One thing with bike racing is that often it doesn't matter what your CP is. If you're not with or ahead of the pack, you're not going to win. If that means burning matches to stay in position with the pack, it's just what you have to do.

---
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the post. Next study needs to be how to raise your CP the fastest, most efficient way! ;)
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
It's interesting to note the time to fully recover. I'd be interested to know the rate of recovery. Is it linear?

The recovery process actually appears to be exponential, or some flavor of curvilinear. The time constant is related to the difference between critical power and recovery power. Thus, the person with the 350W CP who recovers at 50W will have a faster time constant than the person with a 250W CP who recovers at 50W, because in the former case the difference is 300W and in the latter it is 200W.

Phil

--

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [beebs] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Seems really important for a sprint tri since a full battery of AWC or W' is going to be very useful for the 5k.
One of the cool things about the CP/W' model is how you can use it to inform your strategy against other people. For instance (and this is obviously easiest to do with running, and in particular track athletes), you can make your calculations and then make them for your competitors. (i.e. find out some of their times for different distances). You can then compare CV to CV, D' to D'. If you have a really high CV, you might be best suited to going to the front and sitting on a hard pace. If you have a high D' and a relatively low CV, you might be better off going to the front and trying to slow things down until you can try to sprint in the final.

--
Phil

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Phil, that W takes a long time to rebuild (refill?) and that the refill rate might be related to CP is something that should be very obvious to most athletes, especially bike racers. Lots of hard (> FTP) accelerations trying to hold a wheel or establish/close gaps mean a much less robust sprint at the end of the race.

The fact that you were able to model this is very cool. Do you know or suspect that factors other than CP might affect the "refill" rate - things like absolute W or certain types of training that might emphasize repeated "withdrawing" of W on limited recovery?
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Mar 8, 12 9:09
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

Dr. Phil, that W takes a long time to rebuild (refill?) and that the refill rate might be related to CP is something that should be very obvious to most athletes, especially bike racers. Lots of hard (> FTP) accelerations trying to hold a wheel or establish/close gaps mean a much less robust sprint at the end of the race.

The fact that you were able to model this very cool. Do you know or suspect that factors other than CP might affect the "refill" rate - things like absolute W or certain types of training that might emphasize repeated "withdrawing" of W on limited recovery?

I can tell you that the absolute size of the W' does not seem to affect the rate of refill in and of itself. However, people with exceptionally large W's usually have low-ish CP's...indicating their rate of recharge would be somewhat slow.

Regarding the second part of your question, I can't answer that at the moment...but hopefully soon.

Phil

--

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing; I enjoyed the read. So how do you go about figuring out what someone's W' is?

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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MonkeyClaw wrote:
One thing with bike racing is that often it doesn't matter what your CP is. If you're not with or ahead of the pack, you're not going to win. If that means burning matches to stay in position with the pack, it's just what you have to do.

In the situation you're describing, CP/FTP is absolutely paramount. The higher your CP/FTP is, the less you have to dip into your "battery" to stay with or stay ahead.

With the exception of a couple track disciplines and bmx, CP/FTP is the most important aspect of fitness in cycling.
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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NateC wrote:
MonkeyClaw wrote:

One thing with bike racing is that often it doesn't matter what your CP is. If you're not with or ahead of the pack, you're not going to win. If that means burning matches to stay in position with the pack, it's just what you have to do.


In the situation you're describing, CP/FTP is absolutely paramount. The higher your CP/FTP is, the less you have to dip into your "battery" to stay with or stay ahead.

With the exception of a couple track disciplines and bmx, CP/FTP is the most important aspect of fitness in cycling.

While in general I agree, you miss my point. If you have to go above your FTP and burn matches to stay with the pack, that's what you do. If you aren't trained to race (and recover) like this, you'll get dropped off the back on rollers and around corners. It's actually one of my strategies when racing to accelerate over the rollers, out of corners, and with false attacks to drop the 'high FTP, slow recovery' guys in the race (I call it the 'triathlete killer').

I would also argue that FTP is only important to the point that you can stay with the pack. There are many weaker racers who hang on until the end and then use a massive 15-30 second (sprint) power to take the win, or a 1-5 minute VO2max power to accelerate away on the final climb. Happens to me all the time... (I also try to drop them with the above strategy).

---
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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one of you is saying that *having* a big ftp is paramount to be able to stay on the pack in a bike race


and the other is saying that *worrying if* you are over ftp or not DURING a bike race does not matter at all, since you just have to stay with the pack and hope they are blowing up too

you are both right =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Is the difference due to the absolute difference (200W vs 300W in this example) or recovering at a % of CP (20% vs 14%)? Maybe a trivial concern since recovery in the study was at a meager 20W.
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. I get what you are saying. I misread your first sentence because you put a period at the end of it instead of a comma. Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it did change what you were saying.
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote] With the exception of a couple track disciplines and bmx, CP/FTP is the most important aspect of fitness in cycling.[/quote]
Totally agree with this, but interestingly it's not what most of us notice. As noted in a few posts above, most people don't get dropped and/or have trouble with their bike fitness in situations that says critical power is the issue, they get dropped via a short term accelerations or uphills. Put 1 and 1 together and you actually draw a largely inaccurate conclusion that short term power is lacking. The real issue isn't the short term power so much as the fact that those short bursts were done far too far above critical power.

Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [renorider] [ In reply to ]
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Easy.

1) Open up Excel.
2) In one column, put in the duration in seconds of at least 3 tests that are of different duration.
3) In the other column, put in the work done. (This would be the power you held for the length of the test x the length of the test in seconds). You want 3 tests between about 3 and 20 min. I prefer 4 if possible and in the lab you might use as many as 5.
4) Create a graph, with time on the X axis (bottom) and work done on the Y axis
5) Right click the data points on the graph and select 'add trendline'
6) When the little box pops up, select linear regression and show trendline, and show r^2
7) The equation that pops up will be of the form y = mx+b. The 'm' is your CP and the b is your W'
8) Note that the r^2 ought to be > 0.98 if you really did a good job on the test. (A good way of doing this is using a computrainer in erg mode. Set the power, and ride until your cadence falls by more than 10rpm or you just can't go on anymore, whichever comes first.)

You could do the same thing for running. Instead of using work done, just put meters run in the place of work.

--

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [QRNub] [ In reply to ]
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Interestingly, the data looks a bit better in absolute terms rather than as a percent of FTP.

Phil

--

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense. Thanks!

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Saw this on wattage and found it very interesting. One question I have though is effect of 3-5 minute efforts at true VO2max (not 5m) as shouldn't they be sustainable by using only aerobic oxidation? Or does it have to do with kinetics leading up to VO2max, during which quite a bit of power in the first 1.5 minute or so is anaerobic as VO2 level reaches saturation despite that the entire effort is iso-power in nature?
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [MonkeyClaw] [ In reply to ]
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MonkeyClaw wrote:
While in general I agree, you miss my point. If you have to go above your FTP and burn matches to stay with the pack, that's what you do. If you aren't trained to race (and recover) like this, you'll get dropped off the back on rollers and around corners. It's actually one of my strategies when racing to accelerate over the rollers, out of corners, and with false attacks to drop the 'high FTP, slow recovery' guys in the race (I call it the 'triathlete killer').

Yeah but can you do this?

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Philbert wrote:


Regarding the second part of your question, I can't answer that at the moment...but hopefully soon.

--



Thanks for the response. Can't wait to hear more.


Funny, I discussed this a year or so ago with one of our mutual friends following a less than optimal TT pacing effort ;-)
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Mar 9, 12 3:57
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Re: Work above threshold and cycling / triathlon [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
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Philbert wrote:
Easy.

1) Open up Excel.
2) In one column, put in the duration in seconds of at least 3 tests that are of different duration.
3) In the other column, put in the work done. (This would be the power you held for the length of the test x the length of the test in seconds). You want 3 tests between about 3 and 20 min. I prefer 4 if possible and in the lab you might use as many as 5.
4) Create a graph, with time on the X axis (bottom) and work done on the Y axis
5) Right click the data points on the graph and select 'add trendline'
6) When the little box pops up, select linear regression and show trendline, and show r^2
7) The equation that pops up will be of the form y = mx+b. The 'm' is your CP and the b is your W'
8) Note that the r^2 ought to be > 0.98 if you really did a good job on the test. (A good way of doing this is using a computrainer in erg mode. Set the power, and ride until your cadence falls by more than 10rpm or you just can't go on anymore, whichever comes first.)

You could do the same thing for running. Instead of using work done, just put meters run in the place of work.

--

Phil,
Great information!
It seems that many triathletes advocate racing at a certain percentage of FTP in order to save energy for the run. Should you be able to ride at 100% of bike CP and then run at 100% of run CP?
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