So people can see your pic:

Good luck, new companies and new products are cool.

Your design looks a lot like the Bontrager Speed Limit brakes:

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"This wheel definitely beat the 808 in this test, no question, and I do commend Hed on producing a really fast wheel...the wheel is fast, I am not disputing that." - joshatzipp on the Stinger 9
My Website
HEDmafia.com

looks cool to me

 
VERY interesting...and the current iteration looks like it would be a great addition to an aero road bike, but to be honest, I'm more of a fan of a bare cable down the centerline rather than the full housing down to an offset arm, like with an old Hooker brake or my own contraption below.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

What is the perfect triathlon brake?

- Light and aero, but, with stopping power. The weight of a Zero G Ti with the stopping power of a Shimano DA.

What would you change about the brake as pictured?

- Make it out of carbon or Ti.

What is the best weight/aero tradeoff?

- I will likely get flamed for this, but, really, how much drag can a brake cause in a triathlon bike (TT, more so).

What is the best stopping power/aero tradeoff?

- I would really like it to stop the bike. I love my Zero G's for the bling factor, but, as they say, "Once you go Zero G, you never stop."

Fluff stuff: Colors? Product Names?

- Black. White. Red. In that order. I'm no good with names.

What do you guys think?

- I think it is pretty cool. Interested in seeing where this goes.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Tom,
Do the center pulls only fit certain bikes or can you use that setup on pretty much any Tri bike?

What is the stopping power like compare to say Dura Ace?

that is a slick looking design.

can you give us a head on view?

weight - doesn't matter

stopping power - matters a bit

not having to fuss with it much - matters a bit


If you can make it light fine, but not if that makes it super expensive or less aero =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Matt,

BTW - I like the pic of my brake on your web site : )

They are awesome brakes, well made, look great, stop really well and are light.

I really like this new brake! I'd consider buying one for the front brake caliper. What type of pivot is this, double or single? Is it easy to adjust? The adjustment on a Look 596 has to be made with the fork OFF the frame as the caliper mounting bolt is inside the fork/frame interface.

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Paul

Head on:

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Light-Aero-Power, working on it. These brakes lean toward aero though.
These are CNC'd so carbon is out. Last I checked, Ti billet in this thickness was going for $1200 per brake. I think Alcoa has a new contract with the Russians for Ti ore, so you never know.

Based on my testing, these brakes are significantly more slippery than other dual pivots, but of course, it is not going to be as noticeable as say drops vs. aero bars. Given what wheels are going for these days, it shouldn’t be a bad drag/buck ratio.
Black, red, or white - noted.

How are they better than a Campagnolo Record/Super Record or Shimano Dura Ace caliper?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Ti as a solid is heavier than aluminum and much more expensive. So ti makes no sense there.

Damnit man...dont let the facts get in the freaking way of Ti for the sake of Ti, Carbon for the sake of Carbon or even Drillium....

While I think they look cool, I think this is a very uphill road for the OP as 0G has the market on light, and now on light carbon (at any cost). But, you and I are damn hard pressed to find better performance out of any caliper that is even mid grade from Shimano, Campy or SRAM...let alone the DA and Record bits.

Myself, if I was going to get a heavy caliper it would be a C-Record. Heck with the constant squeeling!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Paul,
Good to hear from you. I am sure there are not as many cool places to be riding that crazy Look of yours than at the Casa.
These actually build on the brake you have. The basic design is the same but it has been rounded, condensed, and the gaps were closed up. There is a slight increase in leverage. Unfortunately, the brake that I sold you was before I found out how much better Cool Stop pads work, so stopping power was is definitely improved.
The adjustment does not use a 14mm box wrench for this one, instead it has a small hole to lever on. It is hard to from the pic. It does have a barrel adjuster.
Thanks,
Matt

Looking at your caliper - have you considered the use of a Campy style barrel as opposed to a threaded? This makes the adjustment a bit easier. I also note that you do not have a tension release (same as Campy) so - I presume that in a road application the Campy Ergo lever is a bonus? (granted, most folks run their pads far to near the rim and I never ever have an issue getting a wheel out of my bikes even with all Campy and not letting the lever out).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

The Tektro routed for centre pull can go on any bike - uses a standard mount and a CX cable hanger as the cable stop at the top of the headtube. THe braking is not fantastic.

You've got a lot of elements that I've really wanted to see someone incorporate. The only thing missing is the hooker style cable and actuation. Perhaps get hold of a pair of Shimano AX brakes and look at the mechanism.

Actually, the prototype is pretty rough, definitely not ready for prime time, yet.

They are not better road brakes than campy or DA, but they are better Tri/TT brakes. Same weight as DA, heavier than Super Record. They are extremely narrow so they will fit under the BB without hitting the crank, and they did have much less drag force than an Ultegra Dual pivot. No testing with DA and Super Record, that stuff is really pricey. However, I doubt the DA and Record are much different from Ultegra.

Are DA and Record good enough for TT? Does this look overly niche?

I have tried the Hookers. Not the best stoppers, but I didn't get the chance to test them with drag. Pretty rare brakes.
Never actually seen an AX in person. If anyone has a pair, I would love to check them out in a pic or hear how well they work. Even more rare.

Nothing is overly "niche" for the tri folks...but, as a guy who rides a straight Record groupset - finding an "upgrade" is sort of tough. As a guy who knows that "aero" counts for so little to myself and 99.999% of the rest of the tri geeks - Aero may trump weight, but it will never trump cost (for me). Do I think your calipers look nice? Sure as hell I do...but, I will never ever give up an inch on my calipers as I have come to expect 100% performance from them when I need them...I dont want them to be slack, tight, grabby, soft, or anything other than solid...thus..my bikes are all Record calipers, Campy cables, and Campy pads - I know each and every time what I am going to get when I need my brakes.

I had (have Zero Gravity)...they time to time would grab...they are in a drawer as I dont care to have finiky calipers on any of my bikes.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

cool brake matt.

stopping power is often limited to the function of the brake lever. ZG may work great with SLR levers, but not so much with Dia Compe 188s.

As to the "wish list"

pass EN/French braking standards.

Die-cast/China version so everyone and their brother can have an option other than a 310 for their entry level tri bike.

Brake pad holders have drag too, bolts need to be countersunk, not hanging in the wind outside the arm.

add a quick release and dual pull arrangement where the housing can be run from the bottom and anchored at the top as well as your current set up.

Make any forged molds so you have finish CNC machining so other brands can buy the blank and integrate their needed shape to your design.

Co-branding is your friend. Simkins has a name already, you're current brakes seem to work well, but if you could have the brilliant cannucks put an e on that thing, the sheep would go nuts, same with commander, steve, JC, or other trusted aero guru.

Good luck!

-SD

The Tektro/Oval brakes mount in a normal brake location using a "pivot plate". The one in the pic is actually sold as a rear brake and I changed the mounting bolt to allow me to use it on the front. Here's a pic from the side that will give you an idea of how it mounts.



Tektro has a newer model that incorporates the center-pull design. The one I modified originally came with a side-pull cable. Here's the newer Tektro (T726R):



Obviously, neither of those brakes is as "smooth" as your brake or the Hookers. If you don't mind me asking, but how have you been testing out the aero drag? I can offer my "field testing" services (as I've outlined in other threads like "Something Borrowed...Something FAST!) if that's something that would interest you :-)

As far as the braking power goes...I find mine to work just fine. It's not dual-pivot "strength", but I find that using KoolStop Salmon pads really improves the braking, especially on aluminum rims. Now then, you have to understand that my everyday brakes on my road racing bike are simple single pivots (Cane Creek 200SLs) with KoolStops...so I'm not exactly one who thinks that being able to lock up my front wheel at any time is a "necessity" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Super Dave,
Your post rings a bell, but I can't place it. $310 is very close to the price that I had in mind for the final version (which is still on the drawing board) so we may have talked.
I try to buy American, but with bike parts, Taiwan and China are a given these days, so I here you.

You are correct about sinking the holes, that did actually smoothen the flow.

These brakes were finite element analyzed to death and the brake walls are really on the thin side, no room to safely countersink. Given that, material would be added so recessing would widen the brakes about 1.5 mm on each side, so the brake would be a total of 3mm wider.

The brakes get a little wider, a little heavier, more aero and no doubt stiffer (would probably have a cleaner look too).

Not sure, but an informed observation. Your preference?

I was referring to Tektro 310, not a $310 brake.

I'd accept 1.5mm wider to make it faster (if that was the end result)

Another idea, why not change the pitch on the barrell adjuster to a sqaure thread with more aggressive thread pitch? Why .8 or 1.0mm? Why not 1.5? I mean who needs that small of an adjustment? I wish that a half turn made a significant difference when I'm swapping wheels, or descending a long wet mountainside.

Just a thoought, I've got a few other ideas too, but I'm saving those for another brake...

-SD

Tom,
Thanks for your picture. I used to run the 200SLs myself, and had stronger hands to boot. The think nice about the Ovals is the width. When folks mount them under the BB is there a bracket then for the center pull cable?

I actually was not able to get full wind tunnel testing. A rider can have a huge impact on the results just by changing the curve in the back. The testing used a very small air stream ran across a brake mounted to a fork, no wheel. There are plenty of approximations and assumptions in this approach.
Unlike modeling stress, which is easy with computers, Computational Fluid Dynamics programs turn out to be really tough to set up and I never got anywhere with that. Everything was done with experiments.
The brake-to-brake differences in drag force were much larger than the variation of the test method, so the testing should be valid. It is tempting to publish data on my website, but that kind of thing can open up a can of worms, especially if other products are mentioned by name.

Hello Matt Simkins and All,

Nice Effort! And nice machining.

I would prefer a design that eliminated the cable on the side and either used a center pull bare cable or solid rod.

Aero is VERY important and maybe a new approach with a mini hydraulic cylinder or leverage in the fore and aft plane translated to the brakes via a jackscrew.

How about a straight push brake pad onto the tire with a back up for tire flats? (No wear on carbon wheels.) Hmmmm ..... maybe it would push the front wheel out of the drop outs ..... yikes .... not a good way to stop.

Incorporating the fork sructure into the front brakes will be a design that is hard to beat.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

finally...

I'm pretty amazed that no one has come up with a modern aero brake, so kudos.

I'd definitely buy this brake. I'm not a big fan of Tom's setup (sorry Tom!) mainly because after the cable hanger and the actual brake itself, I don't think you're saving anything over a *properly routed* front brake (there are other tricks to reduce the amount of cable being run, like running it from the right hand lever).

Here's what will stop me from buying the brake: it needs to work with wide rims. The Stinger 6's are 28 mm wide at the rim. So the distance between the pads needs to be about 34mm with reasonable-thickness brake pads.

Also, I agree w/Dave on the pad holders (countersunk bolts, no fins on the shoes)--but it really needs to use a standard DA pad.

Personally, I don't care what they weigh or if the stopping power sucks. For a rear brake, I really don't care about the stopping power

Surely a cantilever brake utilizing foil shaped lever arms which integrate with specific forks, would be the best - They would effectively be the leading edge of upper fork (legally exceeding 3:1) at all times unless braking. They would stop waay better than any standard road brake and be pretty much invisible, to both the wind, and the eye.

Send your money to my nigerian account...


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nec rege, nec populo, sed utroque

Great concept Matt.
I also would like to see a center pull for it.

If only this design had a center pull & transfered to the front.....
(will also need a cam to strengthen the minimum cable pull)

bingo.

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nec rege, nec populo, sed utroque

These are designed to fit the new 23mm wide rims, but the edges on the brake arms line up perfectly on a 20mm rim. 28 mm are ultra wide and they probably wouldnt fit such a monster. Are you sure that is the width at the braking surface? I thought 23mm was as wide as they get, not true?

That is wild, but actually, it looks really nice. The brake housing and wire is definitely going eat into the benifets, but that is really clean hardware. Who made that?

Funny you mention that. I do have a design that pushes a plate into the tire. When I showed the design to people they were highly skeptical. I agree that the idea has merit though.

for the most part, yeah. The Stingers, particularly the 6's, are quite a bit wider though.

That said, I expect that rims will continue to get wider (the newest 303's look pretty wide, and I expect that Zipp will follow suit w/the wide rims), so that may be an issue to consider.

No...there's no stop for the cable housing, but I could see how a stop (a removable one) could easily be added to the "pivot plate".



Yeah, I could see how CFD could be a bit complicated with the wheel rotating against the direction of travel right next to it!

When I was talking about "field testing", I was referring to some of the types of road tests I've done using Robert Chung's "Virtual Elevation" method...in the past I've apparently been able to discern differences as small as .001-.002 m^2 of CdA which corresponds to ~ 10-20 g of drag (@ 30mph tunnel speed).

If you send me a prototype, I'd be glad to test it out :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Here's the set up on my P3

Front
http://i20.tinypic.com/7295r4.jpg




Rear
http://20.media.tumblr.com/...rlRHyxkx1Co1_400.jpg

Tom,
I have never heard of this method, but am going to look into it more. It looks like you need a power meter. I would be glad to send you the prototype to do this test. However, a key feature was machined wrong so part of one of the springs will not stay in. Remember, this is a prototype. If you test these particular brakes they would likely drag on the rim. The return spring works fine and the brakes stop, so at least I have been able to test them under hard braking. I would love to hear more about this method. Perhaps I can give you a call?
simkinsdesigns@gmail.com

Here's a write-up on it from the man himself:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/...cda/indirect-cda.pdf

I have my own spreadsheet that I put together for doing these analyses, plus Alex Simmons has kindly put his own spreadsheet versions up on the files section of the wattage training list on google groups:

http://wattage.googlegroups.com/...ioEG5q2hncZWbpWmJ7IQ


I do my testing on a local road that I affectionately call "the halfpipe". Basically it's a stretch of road that has an incline on each end, which allows me to do "out and back" laps and make the turnarounds at very low speeds and thus avoiding braking (since braking in this approach would appear as a non-existant very steep hill!). I use this method to check out all sorts of equipment and positioning options for myself. Last year I undertook the task of attempting to determine the drag differences, if any, between my friend's P3C and my P2K. I posted the results in the following thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...%20borrowed;#1802183



I'd love to test it out and compare it to some other brakes (including my own contraption). Would the brake still "drag" if the inner cable wasn't attached? I was thinking for quick changes in the field that I'd just swap the brakes and then just put in place an outer cable housing for the runs and not bother attaching the inner cable. I'll still have my rear brake for any braking that's needed (as I described above, in the actual runs I avoid braking altogether.) Having the brake drag during the test wouldn't work well since the power to overcome the drag would be lumped into the aero and rolling resistance drags.

I'll email you my phone number and we can set up a time to talk :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Any update on this thread? Matt or Tom?

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

I have a set of shimano ax calipers very aero but hardly confidence inspiring when you try to use them I weigh about 170 pounds and can average about 29 mph in most time trials up to about 50 miles but probably lose time on more technical courses as im worried about their braking performance before turns. these brakes are good for drag strip courses but anything technical they let you down and if its wet as it is alot in scotland forget it. These prototypes from simkins look good to me and i would definately buy them if they work well
(buy the way matt i emailed you some photos of ax calipers hope you got them)

the front brake looks a lot like a campy delta, although that might have been said before. delta brakes looked really nice, but didn't work so well, and were a pain to maintain. sorry, not to cast aspersions, it's just historical.

The back isn't a P3? I'm confused

Hey Matt, it's great to see you're still at it with developing some more useful aero brakes. Your current design seems to show a lot of the aspects that we talked about when I bought your original iteration, and is most likely getting into the range of the other brakes I am using.

I missed the original post a couple of months ago, so is there an update now on how the design is shaking out? I will be first in line for this new brake, though I am only interested in a front for my Zipp 2001 (still have the original rear which works great), and I have created a custom hydration solution for my Softride that integrates with a super old Weinmann center pull design.

Keep up the great work. Innovation is your friend.

Chris

Chris,
The latest brake is going really slow. I have another prototype being made. This one has to be perfect. The first priority of the new design was getting something that worked in the wind. The aero part is pretty much worked out. Now the effort is going into making it easy to install, stop well, mistake proof, fit a wide range of frames and wheels, and all of that sort of thing.
Thanks, Matt

Matt,
The front brake looks nice. I would have to see a lot of data to change from a traditional break. Also, I think there is no real substitute for braking power. If you want to make a greta brake, find something to replace the side pull Quartz. I have them on my Argon and they don't work. The look great. But coming into a corner I want o stop and those are horrible. Additionally, with the emergence of rear side brakes on the front fork I think this is a market worth getting into. There is no need to emphasize drag when you can use the fork and instead maximize stopping power and weight.

hi matt just wondering how you are getting along with the new prototype. any more ifo or pictures

cheers
m@tty

m@tty,
Working on it. The new prototype is being tested for reliability and it is working great. I think the design is ready and am going to make the big plunge to machine a batch. I really think this is going to be a popular brake, but you never know. Given the short life of the Shimano AX, Campy Delta, and Sampsons, an aerodynamic road brake is pretty niche, but lets see.
Thanks,
Matt

Matt-

I think your design rocks! Let me know when you're ready for production and I'll be ready with my credit card. ;)

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Thanks for the update Matt. I have my cheque book at the ready too. Hope they will be available in black.

m@tty

Hi Matt,

Will it be like the original photo, or will the cable have more of a 'central' location to put it in line with the head tube?

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

Niche? Absolutely. The same goes for lightweight brakes, but there are plenty of options out there because people are willing to spend the money in order to achieve a certain number on a scale. The same obviously goes for aero items, except that they actually make a whole lot more difference in speed!

Looking forward to this. If you have the option, definitely do a batch in black, as that's what my Zipp 2001 is begging for to finish it off.

Chris

Hi matt just wondering how progress is going with the brakes

m@tty

M@tty,
Thanks. I probably should have replied on Slowtwitch rather than on email. The arcs that were used to make the shape more aero ended up making them a real pain to machine. These brakes must be aero and the testing shows that they will provide a significant improvement over conventional brakes, so even though it does not make life so easy, I am not going to change the exterior surfaces from the pictures that were uploaded. They should be done early October.

Even though CNC does not lend itself to rounded airframe shapes, it does allow for the a large hollow frame that is not possible with forging, so this is still the best way to go. There is no way to have such a large continuous surface that extends to the fork and frame while keeping the weight down without some serious hogging out with the mill.
Thanks,
Matt

That is good to here. Black, red, and possibly polished are planned with white laser etching. With all the carbon equipment out there, black is a pretty safe bet.
One response asked for white, but contrary to what some magizines will claim, there is no such thing as "white anodizing", only white paint, so that one is out.
Thanks,
Matt

It will be similar to the original photo. There are actually some subtle changes to make the exterior surface a tad more aero. Underneath the surface, the brake will actually be very different to what was pictured, but those are springs, stops, and other geometry that will not affect drag. Talking to racers, I find that there are the following zingers that a triathelete needs compared to a conventional roadie:
1. More return spring force is needed because some Tri bike levers do not include return springs.
2. The brake needs to open far enough to accomidate those crazy 23mm wide rear rims.
3. Some brakes make it tough to switch out different types of wheels, solid, spoked, or training, because they all can have different widths. The barrel adjuster must be highly adjustable to accomidate a variety of wheel widths.
4. The general priority seems to be a) Drag -> b) Weight -> c) Stopping Power

some very cool ideas there.

Nice design. I would definitely consider a pair for my P3. Black w/ SwissStop Yellow pads.

Hi Matt.

Polished gets my vote.

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Black gets my vote.

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-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

4. The general priority seems to be a) Drag -> b) Weight -> c) Stopping Power

I think this is a great idea, but please don't bow to the stupid weight weenies who think that weight actually matters. Ever if this brake caliper weighed two or three pounds but reduced your drag by a few watts it would still be faster than a 85 gram lightweight caliper, even on hilly courses. So please don't spend excessive time or make it way more expensive in an effort to make it light.

Make that list a) Drag b) stopping power

Chad

Agreed. I'd say even more it's like a1) Aero, a2) Stopping Power, f) weight. I want a front brake that works, especially in light of how many new bikes are potentially compromising the functionality of your rear brake (my assumption is that this brake is going to be most effective as a front brake). I don't want it to be a tank, but other than that, I don't care about weight. Certainly I'd trade better stopping power for a heavier weight any day.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

X2

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Just make them aero and don't worry about the rest!

I am using Weinmann (no stopping power), MRC (awesome stopping power), Zipp, etc (all center pull) on several bikes, and although the Weinmann on the front of my Softride has virtually no stopping power, it does not dissuade me from using it -- because it's completely invisible inside a custom carbon fiber water bottle bladder container. The bike stops fine, although I suspect it's 95% because of the quality of the MRC's. Wish I had purchased another pair of those when I had the chance.

Chris

The brake looks great, nice work! I think you should find a good market for it as long as it's reasonably well executed and isn't astonishingly expensive (expensive in and of itself shouldn't be a problem, LOL). You will want to sell the calipers individually rather than as a pair, P4 owners would be a likely target for their front brake.

(Rant follows, not directed at you Matt.)

"4. The general priority seems to be a) Drag -> b) Weight -> c) Stopping Power"

Wow. So a bunch of amateur athletes are willing to compromise personal safety in persuit of small performance gains and cool gear? Yikes.

I suppose for a nontechnical standalone TT on a quiet road some argument could be made that stopping power isn't that important, but this is a tri forum. You folks are racing in very crowded fields with lots of poor bike handlers, and you don't think stopping power is important? Not to mention the frequent instances of other unforseen things such as cops letting vehicles through intersections when they shouldn't, etc. And not to mention that on any course that is at all technical, having bad braking will mean you have to start braking sooner coming into a turn, meaning you are not just compromising safety, but actual performance.

Okaaaaaay....

That quote about stopping power does not mean under powered. In my view, as long as you can lock the rear wheel or pull the back tire off the ground, you have enough to be safe. In terms of panic stops, newer mtb disk brakes can give you plenty with 1 finger, Dura Ace is about 2 fingers, and 2 to 3 fingers for a TT brake is still pretty good and better than your typical single pivot (excluding M4s of course).

For comparison, I would recommend trying a pair of Campy Deltas, or Hookers. Very nice TT brakes admittedly, but all 4 fingers with the lever sunk into the bar is still not going provide hard stopping.

FYI, a CAT 2 TT rider once told me that he only runs the brakes on his TT bike to get it past the officials. CAT 2 is not pro in road racing, but that is actually a really competitive and seasoned category.

Of course, that is not the majority sentiment and I think that yours is, so lets say Safety -> Aero -> Weight -> Stopping Power is more accurate
- yes, stopping the bike is the whole point.

If he's doing TT's he is losing time at the turn around,Ride till your right at the turn around, brake real hard, turn then get up to speed again,crappy brakes do not let you do this. Looking foward to seeing your finished product.

 
It's been my experience that brakes that some consider to be "weak stoppers" can be made more than adequate with the right brake pads.

Koolstop salmons on aluminum rims are my favorite combo. Without those pads, I doubt I'd be running single pivot Cane Creek 200SLs on my road bike still...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

 doubt I'd be running single pivot Cane Creek 200SLs on my road bike still...

I've been running the same brakes on my road bike for several years now without issue. On my tri bike I only run my rear brake with enough stopping power to cause a bit of drag. Why would you want to lock it up? The front brake is only tight enough to really grab until it is hitting the bar.
I've raced tris that way and trained on the roads for eight years. "Lock up the wheel, do an endo" braking power is way overrated.

Chad

Late braking into a turn is certainly an energy efficient way to shave seconds.

I don't think that braking power always equate to faster stopping though. While triathlon/TT does not typically involve much braking, mtb does. Allot of the trails that people ride today with full hydraulic disk were ridden at speed 15 years ago with cantilevers. There are certainly some road brakes out there, especially some of the older ones, that fall too short on power. However, there are actually some design gains by going with slightly lower leverage if it is done right.

Below is an article on modulation and stopping power. You have to be pretty geeked out on brakes to enjoy it, but this captures some of the major tradeoffs in brake design.

http://www.simkinsdesigns.com/modulation.htm

I'd suggest designing a centerpull model, if the intent is to design a faster front caliper

Other than a centerpull design, one can use a Tektro as Tom did, and it will be the fastest option available commercially today* - faster than any sidepull

*(not including hooker)

I tested (LSWT wind tunnel in 2006) centerpull and sidepull calipers, and the tests detail the difference that cables make, and a centerpull brake is faster for two primary reasons -

-exposed cable diameter is much smaller than cable housing diameter
-exposed cable is mounted in front of the headtube vs. cable housing off to the side, on the side pull models (exception being calipers such as EE brake)

FYI, that Tektro is hard to get ahold of. Even QBP doesn't carry it. I contacted QBP directly for that, and then I emailed Tektro and they said the T726R is for OE only.

By the way, could you discern the Aero savings in grams of going to a center pull? (Assuming that is shareable information).

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Joe

Its all about the cable housing, and a small caliper - which is why the Hooker tests very well

Alternately if center-pull is not an option, this brake has the right idea going

There is a pair of Tektro calipers on Ebay right now with a buy it now option and you could easily do the conversion that Tom A. did. The price looks about right as well.

There is another options for center pull aero brakes but you just have to look for them carefully.

This brake looks pretty aero, though I know nothing about it. Anyone know why Zipp stopped making them?
http://cgi.ebay.com/..._trksid=p3286.c0.m14

They stopped making them when they stopped making the frames. The brake was proprietary to the frames.

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.
.
Paul

I tried one out, back in the day

http://i36.tinypic.com/swsmq0.jpg

Found them, thanks!

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-------
Joe

I don't know that an exposed cable is the only, or even the most, aero solution.

I've fabricated a "cable stiffener" made from aluminum tubing with an airfoil cross section for my front brake cable housing. The tubing is made for radio controlled airplane models. At low yaw anyway, I bet it has a lower CdA than an exposed cable. YMMV.

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---

"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

if a carbon fairing similar to the zipp 3001 brakes could be fabricated for the ee brakes surely this would clean up the frontal area and make them even more aero and you would get the best of both worlds aero, lightweight with stopping power.

m@tty

Agree with paul they stopped making htem. in a few other notes on the infamous zipp 2001 brakes:
a) they used a proprietary mount so you cant swap them back and forth
b) they have 3 settings for you to choose between:

• Setting 1: Regardless of what you do with levers, brake pads never touch rim
• Setting 2: Brake pads rub on rim at ANY imperfections, and when applied tension rim so aggressively that you are literally in danger of crushing rim, while you go over the handlebars
• Setting 3: Brake pads cannot be released from rim, impossible to make wheel turn.
• You can choose between any of the 3 settings above, and swap between them with only 2 hours of work per brake per setting change
• You will also note that in none of these settings do the brakes function as "brakes" in the traditional senses of the word

But i will agree they looked REALLY cool, and they are aero!

My solution has been to basically leave my rear brake on my zipp2001 (which i bought from paul! and it ROCKS!) in setting 1, and only use my front, non-zipp brake for actual slowing down, while my rear brake serves to get me past tech inspections as a "brake".

Clyde

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

I'm going to say this with the utmost respect I can muster...

You're doing something very, very wrong. Zipp brakes work fine. They can be swapped front to back. You can add a barrel adjuster with a decent set of drill bits and an M4 tap.

I have 3 of them, they all work perfectly, stop well, etc. I have run them on the back and front of a Zipp 2001, Softride Rocket TT, Cervelo P3, etc. No issues whatsoever.

Chris

I think the barrell adjuster is very much what i need- exactly how did you add one?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

Just drill out the hole where the cable stop is and then tap it with an M4. I used a standard adjuster from a rear derailleur. Most shops would probably just give you one to use.

Chris

I'm not sure if this would apply to brakes, but I think the best compromise would be to add an in-line cable adjuster that is typically used for shifters.

ex. http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A0297

"IF" (and that's a big if) it can fit in a brake cable set-up, it would be a much simpler solution.

Clyde_s_dale,
I think that you are on to something. I did do a TT brake without the barrel adjuster and it was really low profile. Tri riders complained that the lack of a barrel adjuster made it difficult to change out their training wheels with the racing wheels, so the barrel adjuster was included on the new brake (see first posting on this thread). I would probably change a few things on that perch design as pictured, but perhaps it would be a good idea to go back to the no-adjuster setup and include those in-cable adjusters?

Matt, as you know, brake cables and housings undergo much higher tensile and compressive forces (respectively) than derailleur cables do. Are those inline adjusters designed for brakes?

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---

"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Matt I would much rather have the cable adjuster on the brake like on your prototype brake at the top of this thread.
I think with many of todays aerobars with internal cables exiting on the underside of the bars and the short amount of exposed cable left to fit an inline adjuster on the front brake it would be hard to hide it from the wind and would probably end up less aero and there isnt much reason not to have an adjuster on the rear brake!

anyway how is the brake progressing I am really inspired that you are working on an aero brake set as every second counts!

m@tty

I've used an Indy Brake in a P4 but I don't use an inline adjuster for this reason:

---

Ale Martinez
www.amtriathlon.com

I dont understand the reason.

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Jeremy,
That is good info. Your comment, combined with the possibility that the adjuster could get crushed during braking make me reconsider. There is quite a bit of compressive force on the brake housings. Even if the adjuster does not fail, it could make the brakes pretty mushy. I might try running that setup myself to see how well it goes with an Indy.

This is the kind of thing that always causes much grief - you spend a whole bunch of time machining the brakes to have something like this end up not working the way you expect.
The barrel adjuster really does make the housing stick out. It is not just the top of the adjuster too. You have to make room for the threads underneath so that the brake arm does not pull upward and interfere, - hmm.

Thanks,
Matt

Have to admit, that looks pretty tidy. That is one of the center pulls that I have not actually had the pleasure to try out.

There is what appears to be a barrel adjuster, so it looks like it was designed for a housing. This could cause:
1) A force on the brake that pulls it off center, or
2) Squishy brakes because the stem might deflect.

Cross bikes sometimes have that setup and it seems to work really well with cantilevers. Any problems with centering or stopping power?

The barrel udjuster is for the internal adjustment to tighten the cable tension, the brake is not made for cable housing

No issues with it being off center in 2 yrs use

Stem is steel, no deflection

Stopping power is sufficient for a TT bike, it works, I can stop

If you designed this brake today, I would buy it for sure

Otherwise, I'd set up a Tektro/Oval like Tom

To make a brake that is faster, the caliper should to be small, and it needs to be a centerpull design sans cable housing

(I have the wind tunnel results from the Hooker vs. Dura Ace test, across a 30deg yaw sweep, from my 1/2 hr session at LSWT in 2007)

Else, I'd just stick an EE brake on the front and be done with it

Another option:

---

___________________________________
Paul | Medisch Info | Medisch Zoeken

I have an older pair of Ultegra brakes that I am thinking about doing this too. Guys in the machine shop can make it look a lot better than a HACK job in the field.

The only reason that I am not doing it at this time is because I do not have a back up pair of brakes and I am not sure about braking performance.

If you do it, let us know how it worked for you! I am very curious.

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___________________________________
Paul | Medisch Info | Medisch Zoeken

This cable adjuster, that looks just like every other one, includes fittings for both brake and derailleur cables:

http://www.nashbar.com/...amp;mr:referralID=NA

"The Nashbar In-line cable Adjuster Set allows you to install a cable adjuster anywhere you have cable housing! Perfect for when you are running Cantilevers with STI levers, or bikes without head tube adjusters. Set includes 2 adjusters and fittings for brake or derailleur."

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Suffer Well.

Thanks for the tip, I will try those out.

Folks actually run that setup on recumbents to add chain clearance on the front for the cranks.
I have not seen that done to a new Dura-Ace though, you had to be wincing taking the hacksaw to it.

hope this link works
click on the x. shimano 600 ax calipers in use (ps. I no I look fat in that skin suit)

now if I could get somethong similar to these that take standard pads and that work ok(in black would be nice too) I would buy them in a flash(I know the TEKTROs,TRPs or OVALs could do a similar job front mounted with a few mods but I think these mods look messy at best and i would like to just buy the comlpete package, and before anyone brings up the TEKTRO T726R has anyone ever seen one other than on there website). I am waiting to see what Matt comes up with and contacted him with some more info on the AXs and their stopping power(or lack of it).

What about a centre pull similar to the TEKTRO T726R or HOOKER SL but available with a headset top(similar to FSA) or spacer with integrated cable stop( perhaps even a P4 compatable one for all you cervelo fans)
What about a slimmed down AX style brake that could take todays pads(I think this alone would improve stopping power)
I also like matts design but would maybe like to see it with a cable line similar to the garmin modifications( perhaps this type of cable line entry only on the front caliper, but I know this would add to production costs)
perhaps none of the above and something competely different

Personally, I think any amateur athlete that would take a hack saw to their brakes to do this is pretty stupid, but that's my opinion. Why an amateur, who does this as a hobby, and performs at a level far below professionals due to limited training time, and genetic &/or age limitations, would compromise a perfectly good piece of equipment to gain marginal time savings is beyond me.

By cutting off a large part of one of the brake arms, you're significantly changing the leverage, and likely compromising it. And now you're running cable through, or attaching cable in some manner, to a part of the brake arm that was not engineered for such a stress.

If a professional, who is world class in performance and whose livelihood depends on their performance wants to take such a risk, that's their business. But for an amateur... Sounds like a Darwin award candidate to me.

I'm all over this tech stuff and an aero weenie too. If you can safely run centerpulls or Hooker brakes, fine, or buy Matt's brakes, more power to you. But use a bit of common sense, folks.

So are you saying that John Cobb doesn't have any common sense?

http://www.blackwellresearch.com/...g%20instructions.pdf

:)

I was very much aware Cobb put this out. Yes, I think this particular recommendation lacks common sense.

its all just a leverage game. for more stopping power you need more leverage.

more leverage means longer levers. longer levers means less aeroness.

people use tiny vision tech brake levers
some use hooker brakes, some cut up dura ace brakes.

you could do both and maybe cut your hand in half trying to stop

fun times

perhaps the best solution is a hooker front brake
with a really long lever for your hand, but in line with the base bar, so there isn't much aero penalty

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'm working on something like that.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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this thread seems to be turning into a hookers are best thread. Thats all very well and I am sure they are very aero but I cant exactly walk into my local bike shop and buy two pairs
it started with matt asking peoples thoughts on his new design and wanting some sugestions for improvements lets hope it gets back to that.

M@TTY

I think what we have learned in this thread up to this point which at times has gone off track a little, is that we like what Matt has to offer but would like him to really think about the input that has been given. Do we want a traditional brake design that has been created a bit more aero. NO!

I think what Matt needs to take away from this thread is that his new brake design has to have the cable mounted dead center in the brakes and that we would take the cable and housing coming straight down the center of the brake but we would prefer to have no cable housing at all and have the brakes come with a center pull adaptor that mounts to the fork steerer and allows just the cable to run down to the brake.

Make this as aero as possible and I will buy a pair as soon as they are available. The three brakes that he needs to look at are the Hooker, TRP/TEKTRO/OVAL and the old Dura-Ace aero brakes but make them more modern. Build it and they will come and you will have a lot of sales just from the ST crowd.

The likely fastest commercially available option has been laid out below:

The key is to get a small caliper (specialized/oval/tektro), centerpull brake (lines the cable in front of headtube), and minimize the cable housing using the centerpull-


so if you cannot get your hands on a hooker ...







Then build this: (credits to drgwood)

matt is working on a brake set not just a front brake! and I believe he does want them to be able to work as a brake not just look fast! a centerpull with no cable housing like the hooker or tektro center pull is all very well for the front but a bit more tricky for the rear
I am surprized no one has mentioned the modolo kronos on this thread another very rare, very aero brake with very limited stopping power.

M@TTY

the pics you have displayed show
a very rare hooker brake
a tektro brake no one has ever actually seen in the flesh(i think the only one in existance is in this picture)probably even rarer than the hooker
a mating of a tektro brake and the brake from a specialized transition frame(not exactly easy to get hold of unless I buy the carbon frame to go with it)
I know you mean well but this hasnt helped my predicament

M@TTY

another option is to combine http://ep.yimg.com/...cycles_2071_26816018

http://cyclocrossworld.stores.yahoo.net/jastca.html

Your what? What predicament are you referring to? M@tty just take an ativan

I'm in the process of making a super aero front brake out of normal brake parts and some old technology (none of which has been mentioned yet).

As BMAN has said, we have told him and the rest of the world what ST wants, a commercially available Hooker brake. Heck, if Andy can sell one for $450, commercial ones would sell for $200 front alone. Pretty good ROI considering it could basically use cantilever technology. Plus, people have set up a Hooker in the rear (with some tweaking but could be made to work if redone from scratch):

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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Now this post seems to be going someware thanks for the advice!

M@TTY

do you really expect me to take advice on brakes from a guy with his brake levers on his extensions
I can see from your pics that safety does not seem to concern you ( I dont even think the great mr Obree would risk that one)

M@TTY

This advice was given in the fifth post of this 120 post thread:

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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That's not my bike------you said a Hooker couldnt be mounted on the rear.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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I said it was a bit more tricky to mount on the rear!
and the point I was making is that I dont want to have to spend hours machining small parts to make my brakes work and end up with a brakeset that looks like its made of mecano or produced in a high school metalwork class, If Matt does dicide to work on a center pull brake with or without cable housings I would hope it comes as a complete package so I wouldnt have to source, adapt or make cable hangers and brackets to make the thing work.

M@TTY

Yeah I would hope that too

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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Boy, I'd hate to know what you think of my set-up:

Do you only run one chainring? Is that for aero reasons or do you just never use another ring?


Also, you gotta do something with that raw drywall!

1. Yes (and sometimes only one cog in the rear).

2. Both.

While that would be sweet, don't discount the applicability of a brake with an offset arm and integral cable stop. For example, I took a couple of pics of the Scott Plasma 3 at Interbike specifically to show Matt how his brake would fit. (I'm sure the Felt frames could take advantage of it as well).




Besides...Matt's brake tests out fairly aero as it is ;-) I'd put it up against that EE brake any day.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'd pay $1000 are they new?

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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I have tried the Hookers. Not the best stoppers, but I didn't get the chance to test them with drag. Pretty rare brakes.
Never actually seen an AX in person. If anyone has a pair, I would love to check them out in a pic or hear how well they work. Even more rare.

Hi matt I think a similar design to the shimano AXs (I think the hookers work in a similar fashion but have never seen one in the flesh or its internals so I am guessing) but with todays length brake shoes, and perhaps a bridge on the front to stiffen them up would probably work quite well. also I think these could be used as normal with cable housing on the rear or without a cable housing on the front using a cross style cable hanger to make them a little more aero. If I can work out how to post pics on here I will I will post a few pics of the AXs with some badly drawn modifications on them.

M@TTY

The AX's are much larger than a hooker caliper, I had one

The Tektro/oval modification is likely as aero as the hooker, or very very close

I was also hoping a new design would be slimmed down alot to make it more aero thats why I suggested a bridge to stiffen it up!
I was not suggesting a carbon copy.
something inbetween a hooker and an ax that stops well and could be used either with or without a cable housing.
I know a lot of people want aero at the expense of stopping power but I personally want both.

Q) If you look at each brake, Matts design the Hooker the AX and the Tektro all have good and bad points, If you could take all the good points put them together what do you have?

A) perhaps the ultimate Aero Brake?

M@TTY

I would love to see the pics, but they have to be on the web somewhere.
Slowtwitch pulls the picture from a link, possibly to save server space. I had to upload the pics to a bogus page on the Simkins Designs website to post the prototype picture.

I will try and get the pics on line later in the week pretty busy at work untill thursday!
I will email you them as well and a few design sketches that I have in my head at the moment!
M@TTY

http://www.flickr.com/...s/72157622473081434/

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M@TTY
There was some comparative testing between the "Egg Brake" and a center pull brake on the front by Tom A. The Egg Brake actually had a lower Cda than the center pull that was tested (not an AX per se), but that difference was well within the variation of the test. I cannot say with statistical certainty which had lower drag, but this does shoe that a side pull brake can have similar drag performance to a conventional center pull, and possibly better.

One overlooked aspect of the brake design with respect to aerodynamics is the separation between the brake arms, the fork, and the tire. The tire creates much turbulence and the gap between the brake arms and the fork should be eliminated. Shimano addressed this with the AX brakes by having the brake arms extend all the way back to the fork. I tried to mimic this affect by making the trailing edge of the brake extend back to the fork with a thin shell of aluminum.

Another improvement is to get rid of all of the edges. Bicycle brakes tend to have many kooks and crannies, but you general do not see aerodynamic things like airplanes or cars with all of the springs, bolts, and pivots exposed.

You must have cojones de heirro. (nuts of steel (ok actually iron.))

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Hi matt
some interesting facts there I must admit I really like your design and I am pretty glad you stuck with it alot of people on here have been posting that they want a center pull similar to the hooker but I think they would be compromising braking performance and safety for the sake of aero gains that amount to fractions of a second( I can picture the revues for this brake now, They look nice but dont work. In a similar style to the use tula bars very aero but every review I have ever read has slated the aero brake levers and reviews sell products).
I want a compromise of aero and braking performance, if you are riding a more technical course having a brake that doesnt inspire confidence can actually slow you down. I did have a few ideas floating around in my head for a center pull with a similar braking mechanism to the brake in the new Trek Speed Concept integrated front brake but I dont think it would have the same performance as a side pull (in the same way as the tektro or oval brake doesnt have the same performance as the specialized transition brake as it doesnt use the forks to stiffen it up).
Im sure I will get some comments from people saying that their center pulls work just fine but have they tried them at 35mph on carbon rims in wet conditions when a car has just pulled out on you( a regular occurance in british time trials), I have on quite a few ocasions and mine dont( Im not sure which squeals are louder mine or the brakes).

M@TTY

As someone else put it: handling skills or hospital bills. :-)

What centerpull was it tested against?

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Sounds to me like you might want to reconsider your wheel braking surface choice if that's a common occurrence for you ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I can handle that one (although it was probably obvious knowing who did the comparison). It was compared to my Tektro "mod" brake. They were apparently nominally within .001 m^2 of CdA of each other...which I would call basically tied. Granted, there are "smoother" centerpull options out there, but nobody was willing to lend me a Hooker for the test ;-)

One thing to note though, is that due to the funky brake mount area on my P2K's Chord fork, the rear edges of Matt's brake didn't sit very close to the fork legs. If anything, that could have slightly degraded it's performance.

Both were compared to a Cervelo Mach2 dual pivot brake and they showed a decent drag gain over that...I won't reveal much more. We can all wait for the "final report" that Matt's still working on :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Wait a sec - didn't I offer to loan you one of mine to test? If not, I meant to (and it is still available if you are interested).

That was during your run-up to the Record Challenge at Moriarty. IIRC, you didn't want to pull it off before that...and I was impatient ;-)

edit: And besides, since it's actually MY brake, you probably didn't want to risk the possibility of not getting it back! :-P

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Ah, right. Well, you can't say that I didn't offer! :-)

No I just want a caliper thats aero and works
I swap over my AXs for chorus calipers if its raining or its a tecnical course for peace of mind and have no problems stopping
But it would be nice not to have to!

M@TTY

Can't you just file off the little tabs on your Chord fork? I did that on mine to get an MRC mounted up nice and snug, which worked quite well at the time.

Chris

...and I didn't!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Two things: First, do you have the same pads on both brakes? Second, I wouldn't judge all centerpull brakes based on the AXs. For example, compare the length of the "arm" between where the actuating force is input and the pivot on the AX and the Tektro style brake...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Sure...and I probably would have if it was my own brake I was mounting up there. But, I was just trying to do a comparative test and didn't feel like filing those "tabs" off...especially since the fork crown is all black.

My purpose in mentioning it wasn't to say it can't fit up nicely to a chord fork, I was just explaining that there could have been some things about the test setup that may have been slightly detrimental to the Egg brake.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"As someone else put it: handling skills or hospital bills. :-)"
=!

And I thought the Swiss Miss had a scary set up.

Doesn't someone like Oval, or whoever, make a rig that attaches the aerobars directly to the stem? Why have that little piece of basebar in there at all?

(Isn't it a bit weird having the brakes at asymmetric points on the bars?)

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

wow - pics of my bike and my crotch in the same thread!

g

---

greg
www.wattagetraining.com

They do, but I've never had a lot of confidence in the strength/stiffness of such a set-up.

In Reply To:

(Isn't it a bit weird having the brakes at asymmetric points on the bars?)

Not really, because:

1) I rode with Hooker bars (which are set up the same way, except that the left lever actuates the front brake and the right lever the rear) for years, and

2) I never used both brakes at once. If I wanted/needed to stop, I would sit up and use the front brake activated by the lever under the elbow pad - the rear brake was just there for show/emergencies.

Not to be a pill, but when you take others photos from flickr, you should really read the copyright that they attibute:

from: http://www.flickr.com/...t-72157617139735023/



Also, it is good form on flickr to request an image on flickr be added to a group instead of saving your own local copy and reposting it. There are a lot of other people's picture there from slowtwitch as well I notice.

Just sayin'

g

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greg
www.wattagetraining.com

Where is your front shifter lever?

I really like your using the brake on the left hand- works a LOT better that way than the horrible "3rd brake" thing that i have tried...

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

The same place as my front derailleur, front shift cable, small chainring*, and four of the nine cogs: on my workbench. ;-)

(*Actually, that is not really true, since I was using a track crank...but I'm sure you get the picture.)

where they are most aero ;)

g

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greg
www.wattagetraining.com

Ok i get the "no small chainring" assuming that is a "Flat course only" bike

but why take out rear cogs? how do you keep from shifting off the end of your reduced cogset?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

And their lightest.

You're right, I deleted it.

I didnt think any slowtwitch photos were copyrighted though. Plus its not like I was selling them or anything----just aggregating into something useful-----guess they'll stay in my iphoto gallery.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

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just send me a request for the pic via flickr to add it to the group...

then the image is still my image and you get it in your group. win win for everyone.

whenever I post a pic from my flickr account, i include a link to the image page (as it the flickr agreement). the copyright is that of the holders, not slowtwitch.

I am not angry, just prefer that credit is given where credit is due.

g

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greg
www.wattagetraining.com

I don't do TTs (well a couple of local ones) but isn't the rear brake required (except track).

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

depends on if it is a USCF race, or otherwise

Im not judging every center pull based on the ax I am judging them based on the ax, delta and oval used with carbon rims I have used them all and am not over confident in their stopping power Im not a small guy and want something that can bring 175 pounds plus 20 pounds of bike to a halt if needed.
I have been told that the TRP brake has less flex in it and works alot better than the oval and will be trying one out next week( I will post my thoughts when tested going to give some swisstop yellows a try too).
This thread seems to be getting abit sidetracked again.

M@TTY

Interesting post - it seems my poor effort at metalwork many years ago has finally caught up with me.

Can anybody tell me where you can buy these Hooker brakes, I can't seem to find anywhere online?

Much appreciated and many thanks in advance.

Søren

You cant. They have not been produced in many years. You can sometimes find them on ebay, maybe once or twice a year.

---

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I have one that I might be willing to sell - you can make me an offer at acoggan at earthlink dot net.

Not very good with computers still cant get any on here
jeremyb I emailed you a pic of the TRP caliper for your collection

Still waiting for FSA headset with cable hanger but this is what I have come up with so far!
Im working on something completely different for rear caliper at the moment!

M@TTY

M@tty,

Is that the Oval front brake and what cable hanger did you use.

My P2k just arrived and while I wait to get it painted, I want to start sourcing a few items and this set up is what I really want to go towards,

That straddle cable hanger is HUGE! ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Is that the Oval front brake and what cable hanger did you use.

My P2k just arrived and while I wait to get it painted, I want to start sourcing a few items and this set up is what I really want to go towards,





Its the TRP T925 aero rear caliper fitted on the front with a longer bolt and a jagwire straddle carrier with 2 knarps (www.trpbrakes.com)
The TRP caliper is a bit beefier and the arms sit a little wider and it is suposed to have a bit more stopping power (will let you know when I have tried it)

I have a set of these that I havent used yet, they are very very small.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...?hash=item3a53609bb1



EDIT: sorry these are just end clamps. My set has another hole drilled through it for the straddle cable and Brake cable.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

I used a short piece of 1/4 inch OD copper tube. The straddle cable runs through the tube and the brake cable runs through holes drilled on each side of the tube wall at the midpoint with of course a cable stop installed. Not the most aesthetic but it works with low "A".

What do you use as a cable stop on the brake cable?

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

One of the Odyssey Cable Knarps. I stole the basic idea from Tom. (:-)

I have no idea how i got a picture on here the other day, I have just spent all afternoon trying to repeat the process with no luck!
jeremyb I emailed you a couple of pictures of my rear brake for your colection! If you could post them on here that would be great!

M@TTY

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

Thanks for that

M@TTY

No problem, it was worth posting, looks very cool.

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

That is a pretty slick set up. I really am enjoying this thread and getting lots of ideas for the P2K.

Veeerry interesting! I'm liking that for the rear...how about a "travel agent" pulley in place of the flexible cable end?

This is giving me ideas for the front.....hmmmm....

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I used a part from an old V brake I got from the parts bin in my local bike shop, 2 spoke nipples and the threaded part of a spoke and I had to drill a 4mm hole through the brake arm. Havent tested it out yet but feels pretty good and hides the cable out of the wind behind the seat tube!

M@TTY

I have been thinking about a travel agent but thought I would see how it works first!
also think this set up might be a little bit more difficult to achieve on an oval or tektro brake as the arms are closer together!

M@TTY

The ingenuity involved here is impressive!

However, the setup you have there really isn't any better than a regular brake. Hiding a cable behind a properly aero shaped tube isn't hiding it at all, especially at yaw. Using the adjustment noodle is even worse.

Chris

most tubes these days are 3-1 they arent really that aero
not having the 2 arms of a regular caliper and the cable stuck out to the left hand side but instead tucked behind the seat tube reducing the frontal area of the bike not an improvement!
Its aloud me to run the cable really tight to the frame so it isnt flapping around in the wind not an improvement!
ok Il take your word for it

M@TTY

I tested a nearly identical setup on a P3, and it was crap. I'm not insulting the engineering and outside the box approach here; its an elegant solution. It just isn't more aero until you actually make some of the material go away, which you haven't done. The same can be said for most of the attempts at a behind the fork solution to the front brake problem.

chris

i think some time with some electrical tape to airfoil the cables might be the best approach =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Even better than electrical tape:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=2510240#2510240

(I can't believe I beat JM to this one.) ;)

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

does anyone have a link or source for the actual aero tubing used in the above link?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"

To be honest I dont think it would be much of an improvement on a normal rear brake but I think it looks a lot neater and I think alot of aero stuff or aero looking stuff can give you an advantage even if its only in your mind!
I think moving the bendy noodle from the side to the centre looks alot cleaner and I could do away with the noodle but I wanted an adjuster for when I change my wheels!
I think john cobb did some research with rear brakes and found it wasnt worth the effort!
I think the best solution for the rear brake would be to buy a P4 but thats not an option for me unless I win the lottery!

M@TTY

Wow - Campy Deltas are not cheap

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/...55059#ht_1057wt_1165

My front end M@TTY

  


My rear end M@TTY

Side on view ( might try some nokons next payday) M@TTY

Finally worked out how to get photos on here! Only took me about 3 weeks!

M@TTY

I got mine at a local hobby shop. But, this looks like it's close, though I can't tell exactly what size and shape it is from the photo:

http://lighthousehobbies.com/...Details.aspx?id=9739

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Happy with my new TRP calipers. Shimano AXs now on ebay if anyone is interested

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/..._trksid=p3286.c0.m14

M@TTY

Have just seen a picture of the rear brake on the shiv and they have done exactly the same as this to move the cable from the side to the middle (just shows great minds think alike) M@TTY

Has anyone retrofitted a brake under the bottom bracket on an alloy frame (p2, p3 etc) if so any info would be apreciated!
Thinking of fitting this brake down there?

M@TTY

The finished trimmed down version!
M@TTY

That looks a bit better m@tty but what about just making your own which I believe could be done a lot smaller. I am thinking about ordering some TRP T925 rear brakes on line and will use the rear on the front of my P2K to do a similar set up but I am thinking of getting the guys in the shop to make me a custom straddle out of some aluminum. Just a very simple design out of the round stock with three set screws. Have the vertical drilled hole on an angle through the stock so that it exits behind the straddle about 2/3rd of the way down with two set screws and then drill a hole horizontally through the bottom about an 1/8" up with a single set screw. have the guys round the top and bottom and I will tri to have the set screws mounted in the back to hide them and have a nice looking unit. I might even have them do it in Stainless steel which we uses for about 90% of the machines we build as the part will be pretty small anyways and will hold up better.

Hard to describe but I have a great thought about how to do this as small as possible while making it still pretty strong.

As for the other rear TRP T925 I was thinking of trying to use something like this on the back seat post clamp and then have the cable run straight down to the brake. Or maybe make a bracket like AC has done with his Hooker rear. Not sure how to attach the rear brake yet.

I tried one of these on the rear brake with a similar set up to the front but it felt a bit spongey and was pretty dificult to set up so discarded the idea I wouldnt have been able to use the seat clamp hanger as my frame has a non standard seat clamp but it might work for you! I dont really have the time or access to the tools to make anything smaller and just wanted to put together something that would work was simple and looked ok that I and others could source from existing parts that are readily available, this forum has given me a chance to display my ideas and steal a few ideas from others keep us informed on your progress!
M@TTY

I noticed you posted this on another thread have you been considering this (i thought of this as a solution also but didnt like the idea of drilling a hole in a perfectly good frame and i dont think there is much advantage to be had with any rear brake on the seatstays if i was going to start altering the frame i think i would fit the brake under and behind the bottom bracket)
M@TTY

This set up would only work with an ISP style frame which my P2K is not. Do not get me wrong as I do like your idea and might steal it but I think having the smallest straddle possible would be the best option. I still might try to figure out how to make a custom straddle as small as possible but at the same time you want it to be strong. I think going with SS instead of AL would be a better choice is I can get one sorted out small enough. I have been thinking about it a lot and there are a few more ideas that I have to reduce the size even more than I originally thought about.

Still great work on what you have done.

I like the staddle below but not sure why it has to be so big.

In implementing a blatant theft of Tom and Greg's idea I used a short piece of 1/4 inch OK copper tube. Stainless could be used as well. The brake works fine with no visable wear on the copper after ~ 6 months of use. Doesn't look great but it is small (:-).

Have a look at the link in post 175 this guy(ebay seller machined) might be able to make you what you want?
considered this option myself but he is on the other side of the atlantic from me and I am the most impatient guy on the planet!!!

M@TTY

That is sort of what I was thinking but I would like to have the piece mounted vertically instead of horizontal and incorporate set screws into the design.

Hey, where did you get that part? I've been looking for one for my cross bike but can't seem to locate one anywhere. Thanks

lets just take the brakes off completely, and the freewheel bit off the hubs
then we are good to go

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Hey, where did you get that part? I've been looking for one for my cross bike but can't seem to locate one anywhere. Thanks
http://www.spacycles.co.uk/...?plid=m2b17s101p1809

M@TTY

Hi Matt
wondering how progress is going with the brakeset?


M@TTY

M@TTY,
I just picked them up from being laser marked today.
They were laser marked already, but several people commented that another logo would look good.
Aesthetic stuff like that is so easy to improved compared to all the work that went into the design and testing that it really wasn't a question, but it did cause some delay.
Now that the brake appearance will not change, I can take some pictures, update the website, and will post them on ebay.
There is still a little bit of work to do finishing off the threads from the CNC (a detail I totally forgot about), but they are essentially done. I will post a photo hopefully tomorrow.
Matt

Hey Matt,

congrats on almost being done.

I have a couple of questions for you:
1. Are they going to be available in singles?
2. Do your Skelters fit Felt DA/B2's rear concave area?

Does that mean mine are "special limited edition" models :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Do you know the price yet for a front?

Edit: also what is the total width?

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource

 
Look at what I just mounted up today :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Rats! You beat me. Mine haven't shipped yet. ;)

You gonna share some aero test data with us? Consider sheathing the cable housing with some airfoil tubing...

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

I revealed a little earlier in this thread (it's basically tied with my modified Tektro)...Matt has a write-up he's going to post when he updates his website.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

so are these field tested yet Tom?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Yup...that's what the write-up is about. I compared the front to a Cervelo Mach2 dual pivot on the "halfpipe" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

they look pretty nice. a few questions:

-how do they stop?
-how much do they cost?
-when can we buy?

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Where would you want to swim ?

-Dunno yet...my first test ride is tomorrow. The one I field tested originally wasn't fully functional.
-Ask Matt
-Ask Matt

:-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

They look cool. I love the shape and how close they sit to the fork-----i think some grams are still sitting on the workbench with the non-centered brake cable.

Now you need some of these (from the AX brakes):

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Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource