Build a huge bike base then ride within yourself on the IM bike ride so as not to blow up early on in the run.

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Run lots?

MORE is more?






(disclaimer: I'm not an expert, and I ran very little due to injury and the fact that I dislike running a lot. I also had a very bad marathon time at Moo).

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Actually wouldn't that be swim, bike and run lots?

~Matt

There are too many variables to pick one. To have the best possible run, you need to nail swim and bike pacing, bike nutrition, and run nutrition. Weighing less is generally good overall, so long as your weight loss efforts don't affect your muscle strength, lose as much as you can.

My race on Sunday was might have gone better if I'd paced a little slower on the bike and/or eaten fewer calories toward the end of the bike/beginning of the run. I ended up with GI issues at mile 15 that forced me to walk most of the second half of the marathon.

I think there's a fine line between bike pacing and nutrition that is difficult to master. The harder you go the fewer calories your digestive system will likely be able to process. At some point your body will just say "enough!" The trick is to balance effort with calorie intake so that you're providing all the fule you need, but not over-fueling.

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Steve Perkins

Yeah, but I cut to the chase. Good swimming and biking within your ability don't mean squat if you can't run well. I could have done a 2 hour swim at a leisurely pace and a 7:30 bike with an average HR of 110, but I bet I still wouldn't have cracked 4:30 on the marathon. I just didn't do the run volume needed to maintain a good pace.

I agree 100% with Baxnelly that if you toast yourself on the bike, being a good marathoner won't help you, but the reverse is also true. Conserving on the bike won't help you run a fast marathon if you can't even run a fast stand alone marathon.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I'm no expert - but I did manage a 3:36 at Madison.

I put in a lot (for me) of mileage early in the year (prepping for Boston in April) and then high running frequency in my weeks from May-August. Ran at least 5 times a week (probably around 40-45 miles average) with one long run on the weekends.

My bike numbers were probably just average for ST, but more than average for everyone else.

I'm definitely a believer in the more often you run the better off you will be.

Do not overlook running economy. In other words your ability to run with good form that gives you the fastest pace for the longest distance with the least amount of exertion. Find an expert to watch you run and to give you advice on whether or not you should change your running form. Check your stride rate, you should be running at 90 (or slightly more) right foot strikes per minute. (Presumably you should have a similar number of left foot strikes). Bad form and a low stride rate will cost you energy which will be in short supply on the marathon.

Now, hopefully some experts will also post replies to your question.

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Grant

I will second this approach. A fast IM run time has nothing to do with being able to run fast. It is all about not slowing down. Big bike base and an easy ride will give you the best results. You still have to run consistently though.

running at 90 fts/minute is something you can do in training, but is very tough on an IM.

I see; Big base early in the year, then maintain with running frequency (5-6 days) for the remainder of the season. On race day, pace the bike, run first half conservative.

I will have to work on my aerobic base, since I usually pop on the run after mile 15, even if I take it easy on the first loop.

I agree 100% with Baxnelly that if you toast yourself on the bike, being a good marathoner won't help you,

Agreed, and was kinda my point. I've seen more than one really good runner humbled by an IM marathon because they failed to train enough on the bike. If you don't do enough on the bike it's really hard to do 112 miles "within your ability". As long as you can very comfortable cover that distance AND do that distance and pace in the race then yeh I suppose it comes down to run volume. However I also think alot of people underestimate what it takes to be able to "comfortably" be able to do 112 miles.

~Matt

Given the people that have already replied to this thread, believe me... you're an expert.

I seem to have my best runs when I focus on more saddle time and greater run frequency (5-6x per week) for a few months.

In addition to solid bike training, make sure you are trained to run a marathon. Don't think overall fitness will get you through the last 13 miles of the run.

Why do you say that? I run at/over 90RPM whenever I run, training, race, whatever. I see plenty of other people doing it, too.

What funkman said was right.

Paulo boiled my loss of 22 minutes on the back half of marathon down to 2 factors:

1. I need to lose weight.
2. I need to train more.

That's it. It is pretty simple. Putting in the miles as funkman and Paulo said.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I thought for sure you were gonna say a better run is the result of lots of time with PowerCranks! (wink)

Tom

Ditto what funkman said:
1. Stay within yourself on the bike
2. Run OFTEN during training. I ran 5-6 times/week. Most were in the one hour range except for 1 long on the weekends.

I will agree with this. At IMWI this year (my first IM, and 2nd Marathon), I WAY under-did-it on the bike and swim. I wanted to take it easy and everyone suggested, use the swim as a race warmup (still beat my goal by 15 minutes, and felt fresh), took the 1st loop on the bike ULTRA easy, then pushed a little harder on the 2nd loop. I got off the bike feeling TOO good, as if I had just finished a 40-50 mile recovery ride. So I'm thinking my run is going to be great. The first 4-5 miles were fantastic, doing 9:30-10:00/miles which is great for what I was planning, looking at a 13:30 finish. But...

My legs deteriorated and went to hell. NOT cramping, NOT soreness, but pain/aching in the knees, bleeding blisters on my feet, and around mile 10 or so my hips started to hurt on every step. Used the same shoes & socks I had been running in for a few months without any problems. I changed socks at special needs and my feet were bleeding in the toes, and the bottoms of my feet were bruised. I basically had to walk almost the rest of the run. I was pissed because I felt so good energy wise, I was talking, shotting the breeze with my family when I would shuffle by. Bottom like is I think I could have gone at least an hour or better faster energy-wise. But something went wrong that caused too much pain in my lower body to allow me to run.

I think it was basic run volume. Compared to others' training mileage, I'm less than HALF the run mileage I've seen. I think my legs weren't used to the pounding. My swim/bike/nutrition plans were spot on perfect, my run training just wasn't enough.

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Do not overlook running economy. In other words your ability to run with good form that gives you the fastest pace for the longest distance with the least amount of exertion..

Sadly this seems to have been ignored so allow me to quote you Grant.

(funny, that kinda explains a lot)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

You mean an incorrect definition of running economy?

"running economy"

True that in an exercise physiology sense...actually, could you define it for us as you know it Paolo, as I've never had anyone explain it to me authoritively.

(Please?)

I was agreeing more with Grant's statement on running form/technique...betcha none of your guys run more is MORE without frequent self-checks and a thorough understanding of ideal running form, no?

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Running form is overrated, running fitness is underrated.


Even though you misspelled my name, just because you asked please, here's an helpful link.

Thanks for the link -- lots of good reading there.

Noah