Those who participated -please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas

May 26, 11 14:26

Post #1 of 98 (8494 views)

I'd like to hear what others thought about their experience with wetsuited and non-wetsuited swimmers mixed together at IM Texas.

This was my wife's 14th IM and the first where she really felt her safety was extremely compromised. She felt that the folks with life preservers/wetsuits on were extremely aggressive in their swim behavior especially as they were theoretically only participating not racing. We listened to several others express the same sentiment at the awards ceremony but I have not heard any talk of this on Slowtwitch. Just to put things in perspective, my wife had the 29th fastest swim of all the females including those wearing wetsuits and those that DNFed. She beat 8 of the women pros and 2 of the men pros.

This was the first mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim IM swim that I know of so perhaps now might be an appropriate time to think of a safer way to do this. Maybe the non-wetsuit folks need a 5 minute head start to enhance their safety?

On another note, we felt that the race was extremely well planned, organized and executed. Even the pre and post race meals were top notch. Kudos to those in charge as well as the many enthusiastic volunteers. It is an excellent race for those seeking the heat and humidity of Kona without the long flight.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Last edited by: sciguy: May 27, 11 8:42

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:36

Post #2 of 98 (8454 views)

Meh.

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Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:46

Post #3 of 98 (8411 views)

Paulo said it well ;-) I thought it was fine.

It was a rough swim, but I thought it had more to do with the relatively tight course than the mixed wetsuits.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:50

Post #4 of 98 (8393 views)

I was surprised by the number that went with the wetsuit option but did not feel there was any more contact than at any other IM. I figured I would come out of the water further back in the pack so I stayed out to the right and took the turns wide.

Surprised there was that much contact at the front of the swim.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Iron Buckeye] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:51

Post #5 of 98 (8391 views)

Iron Buckeye wrote:

Paulo said it well ;-) I thought it was fine.

It was a rough swim, but I thought it had more to do with the relatively tight course than the mixed wetsuits.

Once Paulo has actually done a race with 2000+ swimmers starting at once he will be much more qualified to comment;)

John,

Did you wear a wetsuit? How did you stack up in the swim? How much do yo weigh?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Last edited by: sciguy: May 26, 11 14:52

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:53

Post #6 of 98 (8374 views)

sciguy wrote:

She felt that the folks with life preservers/wetsuits on were extremely aggressive in their swim behavior especially as they were theoretically only participating not racing.
Hugh

It doesn't make THAT big of a difference where you completely change how aggressive you are going to be....besides, wouldn't the folks just "participating" be less likely to be aggressive when nothing is on the line?

If a wetsuit makes you that brave, I'd hate to to do a race with everyone in a wetsuit...that would be just plain crazy....oh wait...I think I have ;)

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Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Iron Buckeye] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:55

Post #7 of 98 (8362 views)

While I haven't done IMTX I've done quite a few races with mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim and never felt unsafe. You have to expect a certain level of brutality in a mass-start swim and if you're not a strong(ish) swimmer you really need to think twice about doing an IM. I think an issue might be mixing men and women in a mass-start as on average those are different weight classes. My race weight is 137 lbs which is not that far off from an average female triathlete and I've been pummeled pretty hardcore a few times by dudes 2x my size but again I knew what I was getting into and it was a part of the experience.

Velosurance - bicycle insurance

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:55

Post #8 of 98 (8359 views)

I have the same opinion as your wife. I thought it was a bad idea from the get go and said so on this forum before the fact. There is absolutely no reason to allow a segment of participants to use illegal equipment and start them at the same time as the athletes competing for spots. They might as well allow fins for those not going for awards, which is 80% of the field anyway.

If for liability reasons, the RD sees need to allow wetsuits, then have a wave that starts 10 minutes later...give 'em til midnight just like anybody else.

This particular swim course was too narrow in a physical sense...most courses allow some efffective widening of the course by allowing athletes to swim inside the non turn buoys, but this was patrolled and forbidden...so this combined with the narrow course and the artificial bunching together of those with different levels of swim talent made for a ridiculously congested swim. And once someone got on the inside along the buoys there was essentially no escape.

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 14:57

Post #9 of 98 (8355 views)

Yes. Almost exactly in the MOP. About 200.

But the fact that I was wearing a wetsuit didn't cause me to run over anyone. Generally, I thought everyone out there was trying their best to avoid contact and it just wasn't possible to do so. In fact, I specifically noted that the contact increased in every location where the shoreline constricted the course (and most notably, in the canal). The lack of visibility certainly played a role too.

Granted the experience may have been much different at the FOP where your wife was, but I didn't see the issue from my vanish point.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Iron Buckeye] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:03

Post #10 of 98 (8325 views)

Iron Buckeye wrote:

Yes. Almost exactly in the MOP. About 200.

But the fact that I was wearing a wetsuit didn't cause me to run over anyone. Generally, I thought everyone out there was trying their best to avoid contact and it just wasn't possible to do so. In fact, I specifically noted that the contact increased in every location where the shoreline constricted the course (and most notably, in the canal). The lack of visibility certainly played a role too.

Granted the experience may have been much different at the FOP where your wife was, but I didn't see the issue from my vanish point.

Not remotely the same experience to say the least.

So why in the world did you wear wetsuit in that very warm water?

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:03

Post #11 of 98 (8323 views)

Terra-Man wrote:

. There is absolutely no reason to allow a segment of participants to use illegal equipment

It was not illegal. Had it been illegal, I would not have worn mine.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:06

Post #12 of 98 (8303 views)

sciguy wrote:

So why in the world did you wear wetsuit in that very warm water?

Maybe he can't swim. Get off his back!

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:09

Post #13 of 98 (8288 views)

Because it didn't feel all that warm to me. The local races where I live all take place in shallow lakes with temps in the mid to high 70's all summer long. Just par for the course for me.

During the practice swim Friday AM I did a lap of the course with my sleeveless suit, pulled it off, did another lap without, then made a choice. I was comfortable with the suit and didn't overheat in the way that everyone seemed to expect, so I went with what worked for me given that I was only competing against my own previous times and expectations.

Call it personal preference.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Iron Buckeye] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:16

Post #14 of 98 (8257 views)

I understand you and that's a fine reason. Your situation is a bit different that that of my wife and many others on the more pointy end of the
field. The macho folks that express that "it's just how it is" strike me as are a part of the problem. There is no need to to using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:21

Post #15 of 98 (8238 views)

I agree with that no matter what people are wearing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect those macho types are going to pull that crap no matter what people are wearing. The difference at IMTX - I think - is that there was no opportunity to get any distance between yourself and those macho guys.

All that being said, I really couldn't care less one way or another. If they did give non-wetsuit people I head start, I wouldn't care.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:22

Post #16 of 98 (8228 views)

sciguy wrote:

The macho folks that express that "it's just how it is" strike me as are a part of the problem. There is no need to to using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim.

Hugh

I'm not trying to be macho...just don't understand...how does a wetsuit make you "using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim"?

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Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [trinundrum] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:29

Post #17 of 98 (8204 views)

You are correct - it was not "illegal equipment"....it was however "equipment normally considered illegal using the current rules"...and you also left off the rest of what I said...my issue is that wetsuits were allowed AND those that chose to wear them (legally) were allowed to start with everyone else, unnecessarily bunching swimmers on an already tight course.

Oh and another thing...curious to know if anybody "overheated" significantly in their wetsuit, as this seems to have been the battle cry among those saying it was an ill advised choice

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:30

Post #18 of 98 (8200 views)

How does your wife like wave starts? I find that there is a lot more contact in those as you are either passing (in your wifes case) or getting passed by other waves? Then you are usually dealing with people who stop for no reason, start doing breaststroke, or some other versions of strokes that have no names. When you are in the front of the wave you can usually find clear water if you sight. Your wife was 170 something out of the water and that included over 40 pro's who even if she beat them - except for one pro - she did not make up the 10 minutes they started ahead. Plus there were some crazy fast AG swimmers still going low 50's - which were 10 - 15 minutes ahead of your wife's 1:06 so they all should have been out of the way as well. After you get hit once or twice by an aggressive person, sight and go for open water.

On another note, really impressive she is swimming 1:06 at 59!!!! And thanks for all the updates on the water temp as well as the pictures leading up to the race!

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:34

Post #19 of 98 (8186 views)

This was my 1st IM, so I can't compare this swim against other IMs.
I have done other races where wetsuited and non-wetsuited swimmers raced together, without any issue; there was much less crowding in those races though.
I'm 5'4" female, didn't wear a wetsuit, but differ from your wife in that I'm a horribly slow swimmer - it took me 1hr 41min to complete.
I had my goggles dislodged 2x, took an elbow to the chin I thought might have knocked teeth loose (didn't), and generally took a beating.
The only issue I had was with one swimmer who decidedly to swim on top of me rather than over one shoulder, pushing me under.
Honestly, though, I really had fun - was relieved to emerge relatively unscathed, though.

Based on my (limited) experience with mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swims, I'd have to say the issue at IMTX was crowding and not wetsuits.
And I also thought it was an extremely well organized event, impressive for its debut.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:36

Post #20 of 98 (8180 views)

I thought it was a douche bag move and I expressed that at the start line, which explains why I didn't make any new friends in the water with those wearing neoprene. The entire start line was crowded with those in wetsuits pushing and jockeying for position when their results were nullified from the beginning. It's too complicated. Ironman should have stepped up and said wetsuits for all or wetsuits for none.

Sharting Happens...deal with it!

http://caughtontherun.blogspot.com/

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:38

Post #21 of 98 (8171 views)

Fastyellow wrote:

sciguy wrote:

The macho folks that express that "it's just how it is" strike me as are a part of the problem. There is no need to to using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim.

Hugh

I'm not trying to be macho...just don't understand...how does a wetsuit make you "using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim"?

Two things- The wetsuited swimmers tend to be weaker swimmers with not as effective technique which might lead some of them to seek any traction available and secondly with a wetsuit on, floating nice and high in the water, essentially unsinkable it's just plain easier to stroke over the top of someones back or head. Even dear sweet Tigerchik has mentioned aggressive swimming in the past

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:39

Post #22 of 98 (8163 views)

maybe your wife should have worn a wetsuit

the bikers with no tires had a hard time too, as did the runners with no shoes

Last edited by: eatmydirt: May 26, 11 15:40

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [casman] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:44

Post #23 of 98 (8144 views)

casman wrote:

How does your wife like wave starts? I find that there is a lot more contact in those as you are either passing (in your wifes case) or getting passed by other waves? Then you are usually dealing with people who stop for no reason, start doing breaststroke, or some other versions of strokes that have no names. When you are in the front of the wave you can usually find clear water if you sight. Your wife was 170 something out of the water and that included over 40 pro's who even if she beat them - except for one pro - she did not make up the 10 minutes they started ahead. Plus there were some crazy fast AG swimmers still going low 50's - which were 10 - 15 minutes ahead of your wife's 1:06 so they all should have been out of the way as well. After you get hit once or twice by an aggressive person, sight and go for open water.

On another note, really impressive she is swimming 1:06 at 59!!!! And thanks for all the updates on the water temp as well as the pictures leading up to the race!

She loved IM Louville with the time trial start. When 57 minutes at age 55 and was something like 70th overall in swim including all of the pros.

Wave starts are fine. At Puerto Rico 70.3 it was wonderful with ~100 per wave. IIt's no problem with things spread out with waves.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [eatmydirt] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:48

Post #24 of 98 (8129 views)

eatmydirt wrote:

maybe your wife should have worn a wetsuit

the bikers with no tires had a hard time too, as did the runners with no shoes

It was too flipping hot for a good swimmer to wear a wetsuit and swim hard. She enjoys the podium and Kona too much too;)

I saw at least 5 swimmers swimming with their wetsuit unzipped in the canal. Either they were too hot or someone was really mean to them.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:52

Post #25 of 98 (8113 views)

sciguy wrote:

Fastyellow wrote:

sciguy wrote:

The macho folks that express that "it's just how it is" strike me as are a part of the problem. There is no need to to using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim.

Hugh

I'm not trying to be macho...just don't understand...how does a wetsuit make you "using others heads to take a stroke or legs to grab on throughout the swim"?

Two things- The wetsuited swimmers tend to be weaker swimmers with not as effective technique which might lead some of them to seek any traction available and secondly with a wetsuit on, floating nice and high in the water, essentially unsinkable it's just plain easier to stroke over the top of someones back or head. Even dear sweet Tigerchik has mentioned aggressive swimming in the past

Hugh

ummm...ok, so those people now take off their wetsuits and all of the sudden they are not grabbing for people or swimming over people?....sorry, I don't agree with that. I also don't agree it is easier to swim over someone...while it helps with body position somewhat...it's not like the other swimmers are swimming 2 feet below the surface....why don't these things happen when everyone is wearing a wetsuit and is only a problem when some people are not wearing a wetsuit?

Or are you saying that the people wearing the wetsuits should not be there at all...wetsuit or no wetsuit.

-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 15:56

Post #26 of 98 (5658 views)

Well she obviously is a stud swimmer.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree though when it comes to Slowtwitch and swimming. This place would be in an uproar if because of winds they let people draft on the bike if they didn't want to be in the official results.

It is all about the bike here ;-)

And as I posted in another thread - this directly affected the Kona slots for age group races - M40-44 ended up with 4 less and M35-39 received 4 more since the AG finishers were skewed by the wetsuits.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 16:05

Post #27 of 98 (5645 views)

[quote/]

ummm...ok, so those people now take off their wetsuits and all of the sudden they are not grabbing for people or swimming over people?....sorry, I don't agree with that. I also don't agree it is easier to swim over someone...while it helps with body position somewhat...it's not like the other swimmers are swimming 2 feet below the surface....why don't these things happen when everyone is wearing a wetsuit and is only a problem when some people are not wearing a wetsuit?

Or are you saying that the people wearing the wetsuits should not be there at all...wetsuit or no wetsuit.[/quote]
Not that they should not be there at all but:

Giving some of the swimmers a distinct advantage in the swim or one might say others a disadvantage changes the mix at the front of the race. We talked to several guys who mentioned they were fully 20 minutes faster in there wetsuit than without. That puts them in direct conflict with swimmers they really aren't "swim competitive" with. How is this fair to the non-wetsuit swimmers?

Should we allow just slower bikes to use aero equipment?

Only slower runners get to use good shoes?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Please express your feeling about the mixed wetsuit/non-wetsuit swim at IM Texas [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 11 16:05

Post #28 of 98 (5645 views)

ummmmm..... yes! Wearing a wetsuit makes you faster and able to move forward in a crowd more quickly than those around you, hence the reason that they are pulling and pushing so much more than those around them not wearing wetsuits.

Sharting Happens...deal with it!

http://caughtontherun.blogspot.com/

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