Cue the rabid Zipp crowd in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1

YES , I knew it was true.

side question, I have trued regular spoke patterns, any trouble with Rolf spokes

But they're not dimpled? Must be faulty data. ;-)

I don't doubt that they're fast wheels, but at the risk of being 'the Zipp crowd' or whatever, I'll just say this: I don't believe the data. Here's why:

1. That same rim has been tested with 4 more spokes (but with a more aerodynamic hub), and it performs no where near that well.

2. If you want to see the effect of fewer/paired spokes, just look at the 404 vs. Rolf 58's. Wouldn't one expect there to be a similar delta between the American Classic wheels and the Rolfs? (the AC data can be seen here)

3. I've seen pretty much every wheel test ever published, and some unpublished, and the fact is that rim depth is the over-riding factor, by a pretty high degree of magnitude.

I don't know what's up with the data, but it just doesn't pass the sniff test to me. If someone besides the manufacture duplicates those results, well, then maybe I'd look a little harder....

With all the people with power meters, why aren't there more threads about actual power requirements out on the road as opposed to all this wind tunnel testing? If I had a power meter I would be plotting every little change. Or do people do that and just keep it secret?

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

the SL's are good to 160lb riders only (very thin spokes). The data for the std. Vigour looks quite good up to 10 deg yaw then shoots up. interestingly (for my training/B-race wheels!) there's data for the Bontrager Race X-lite which I assume is the 'aero' version. Looks decent up to 10 deg then shoots up.

Looks like many wheels are measurably better than the 404 at least in the 0-10 deg yaw region ... of course they didn't say what year/version 404 either.

The Mavics are re-assuringly bad ....

What tire did they use I wonder? I assume it was kept constant amongst tests ...

All in all, the data doesn't look completely whack.

Hmm...I disagree. It looks like most all the other data I've seen--except for the Vigor SL. That looks completely whack to my eye, when comparing it to the American Classic wheel set, and considering it's depth. It's considerably faster (over 30-40gms) over all angles between 0-15 degrees compared to a 404? I don't buy it.

Not part of the "zipp crowd" here either...but, to me, I don't know what to make of this chart without knowing what tires were used on each wheel. In particular, the width. Another thing to know before being able to judge is the testing protocol. In other words, were the numbers taken when yawing up from zero, down from 30, or some average of the 2??

A couple of things jump out at me:

• First, at 15 deg and up, the profiles for the Prima Vigor SL and the Prima Vigor are drastically different. As far as I can tell, they're the same rim and hubs, same spoke count, with the only difference being one has straight gauge bladed spokes while the other has butted bladed spokes??? I can't believe the spokes make that much difference...
• The 404 doesn't show the characteristic "dip" at ~10 deg that's typically seen in plots of the 404 testing. The only times I've seen that "dip" not be present is when the tire used was wider than "optimum" (i.e. 21 mm wide) or there was something else "tripping" the air flow (such as tread anomolies) before the rim.
• I find it interesting that the TDF38s and 303s follow each other with about a 20g offset. These are the same rim shapes with the only differences being the dimples and the number and config of spokes. Same thing for the TDF58s and 404s. Does the configuration of the spokes really make that much differenc?
  

Anyway...if one were to believe the Rolf data, why would anyone buy anything else than the Vigor SLs or Vigors?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

okay. I was referring to the entire dataset - not just the SL graph.

"With all the people with power meters, why aren't there more threads about actual power requirements out on the road"

Presumably you can do a little bit of math, or at the very least, access analytic cycling's website. Either way, the data is already at your disposal.

The strange thing about statistically enhancing the marketing, why would you set it up so that your non-aero wheel beats your aero wheel? I mean if everywhere else on the site you are touting the "aeroness" of your TT wheel or TdF58 wheel, then why would you then throw up a diagram showing that the TT is, at best, the third best in your lineup? Weird.

I meant for comparisons, and in the real world...

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Well, to answer part of your question

the SL is limited to people under 160 pounds so it doesn't include everybody. The TT wheel isn't allowed for ITU racing while the TdF58 is allowed for ITU racing. The weight of the carbon rims is less even though their data shows increased drag so would be better for crit racing. I guess they are trying to cover all their bases...

if you are over 160 pounds, go carbon tt
if you are ITU/draft legal, go tdf58
if you are under 160 pounds, SL



edit: would the SL still work with a wheel cover? I have never seen one and don't know if the limited spoke count might affect an increased side load placed on the wheel with a disc during crosswinds.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Well, that goes right to Tom's question: 'why would you buy anything besides the Vigors, and why would they bother making anything besides those wheels?'.

Yeah, they don't perform as well at over 15 degrees, but I don't even look past 15 degrees, as I'm only going to see that sort of yaw on a climb where aerodynamics matters less, and even then, it's pretty rare for the conditions which I normally see.

Two years ago I was at the ART & Science of Triathlon Coaching conference where Andy Ording from Zipp was a speaker. I asked him if he thought if the pairing of the spokes made any diference. He Said that the Rolf's did because they did draft each other, but the tricoupling of campy did not because they were too far apart. The TDF 38/58 Are a modified zipp rim w/o dimples. Many other manufacturers use them as well. So my guess is that what we are observing is effectively a drop in spoke count. I have always thought that the dimples were just marketing hype. Who knows. I'm not an engineer, but I would expect the numbers between the 404/TDF 58, and the 303/TDF 38 to be very similar. As far as the Vigors go, they do feel faster than the 404s that I have ridden even with the "correct tire" width.

Truing of all there wheels takes some skill, but in the four years that I have had the vigors they have needed one touch up true.
Seth

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Seth Wilkie DPT, ACSM-HFS

but what if we aren't racing in a "draft legal" race :)

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Go to biketechreview, there are guys over there that field test everything.

If the Vigor rim is more aerodynamic than the 404, why does Rolf purchase old 404 rims from Zipp for their "TT" wheel?

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tech editor, Triathlete Magazine

One question: Does anyone know if the Rolf Vigor rim shape is a "concave V" like the AC 420s?

If it was a straight V or even slightly convex, I'd believe it would end up being a bit better than the ACs, which ARE concave.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I've seen both up close, and the rims are indistinguishable from each other, so I'd say with a pretty high degree of certainty that they're the same rim.

So, it's not just me that thinks something really doesn't add up here?

It that's the case...yes. More info needed.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The old, and similar, Rolf Vector Pros were extensively field tested using power meters on a velodrome (so low, but not zero, yaw conditions). I think you'll find that the results of these tests were directly connected to their use by, for example, Yvonne McGregor, not to mention by a certain multiple British national time trial champion. To illustrate, here's McGregor riding to the bronze medal in the womens pursuit at the 2000 Sydney Olympics:

so I emailed them... and got more info...

700x20c same tire on all wheels (sounds like clinchers)

and all 2008 model wheels.

they promised to post a FAQ and more test details this week.

apparently I wasn't the first to ask :)

g

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greg
www.wattagetraining.com

We can always count on Greg to "go to the source" :-)

Did they happen to mention reconsidering their product lineup after that testing? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/