Bullshit. Are you making assumptions here, or do you actually ride 650?

I've trained in a bunch of places in this big world of ours.. only a minor inconvenience for 650's. I've found replacement tubes, tires, rims virtually everywhere. There are many small women riders in this world that ride 650.

ooops, you changed your post, synchro. i do notknow what " assumptions " you are referring to. but, 2 small female riders live in my house, they are quite good, and they both vastly prefer a properly fitted 700C wheeled bike for some of the reasons listed plus a few more, if that counts. getting that fit is not that hard ( hint - anything short of severe toe-overlap is not really a problem for actual cyclists . . . . ), and it is admittedly not the answer for everybody but i wonder why dan doesn't even mention the issue, particularly when the market has voted with its feet in the matter pretty convincingly in recent years. . . . . . . . . . . . . it is a fair discussion to raise, but be honest in the thing and present both sides, ya know?

anyway, nearest spare/new wheel or tire for a taco'ed or shredded 650 rider around here would be at least 75 miles one way. quite possibly more. you are aware that people live and ride outside major metro areas . . . . . . .

If you live in a remote area.. stock up. I'd do the same if I had 700c.

Both my kids train/race on 650c bikes and my tri bike (KM40) is 650c and have had zero problems finding 650c tubes and tires. Tubulars, however, of any size are virtually impossible to find.

There was a time when on training rides I had to carry 700c (my bike), 650c (daughter's bike) and 24" (son's bike) tubes and I just got used to it.

With either... tubulars or 650c tubes and tires... if it's a problem then buy or order enough to keep yourself stocked for a year.

It's a non-issue.

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

anyway, nearest spare/new wheel or tire for a taco'ed or shredded 650 rider around here would be at least 75 miles one way. quite possibly more. you are aware that people live and ride outside major metro areas . . . . . . .



That's why they invented the internet. 100's of wheels to choose from, and 1000's of tires always there in stock. And they are often cheaper, and always lighter and stronger than the 700c equilevant...It would be prudent to have spares of tires, tubes and wheels, no matter what size you use......

well there ya go iron-D. i had a similar situation going for a spell there, and i found it to be a pain in the ass with no tangible benefit. :)

the main gist of my post was not on stocking up on tires, tho. not to mention, i am not anti-650c and in fact - come to think of it - i have a fast tandem and two bikes myself that use them. i was pointing out that dan's article was lacking in any discussion of the alternatives. oh well, carry on.

But there is a tangible benefit... the bikes fit!

My kids are long-limbed and short-torso-ed like their parents so short top tubes are a necessity and any of the 700c bikes we tried seemed like cobbled together compromises that just didn't work geometry-wise.

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

I'm 5'9" so can go either way with 650 or 700.

Haven't had a chance to read Dan's articles yet but for me the "pain in the ass" factor was having two bikes (road and tri) with different size wheels. It's much easier to be able to swap wheels in one size if necessary.

My only beef was that it always seemed that 650c wheels with 19mm tires rode very rough. They did seem to spin uphills a little better. Other than that I didn't seem to notice much difference.

I sold my 54cm P2K with 650c wheels. Even if I was to get another P2K it would have 700c wheels just for the convenience factor.

well, rock on with that.

my experience with normal proportioned individuals is that other options exist, and make sense, and to some are preferable. dan's prejudged or blanket " anything under XXX needs to be 650 " just isn't the case, and leaves out several real-world avenues of discussion. cervelo-guy's point is a common and valid one - one that the market reflects, i think - one that shoulda been in the article.

Yes, having different wheels and tires is inconvenient and expensive, but since my kids both race 650c I've kept my 650c tri bike (my road bike is 700c) and we share wheels so for now it's convenient and cost effective. When they're big enough for 700c bikes I'll probably make the switch to a 700c tri bike as well, just so that we can have one size wheel on ALL the bikes.

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

now yer talkin, iron-D.

Well, that ain't my kids so other options didn't exist. I'm with Dan on this one, though, that under a certain size (depending on the frame) it should be 650c. In my opinion the companies that don't, don't because it's just easier to crib together something with the same fork and rear triangle on all their bikes.

Cervelo guy is on the cusp so his point is valid, but for smaller and shorter-torso-ed people it's not, in my (and Dan's) opinion... regardless... I know you're very dogmatic about bikes and cycling so I'm curious as to what's your "real-world avenue of discussion".

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

About a decade ago when everyone was riding 650c's, I crashed my 650c bike in Mallorca. Blew out both rims and tires, along with my ass and skin in a few places. I could not for the life of me buy new rims and tires in 650c size on that rock. Really frustrating as my training week was shot without a bike to ride. Ever since then I have been riding 700c wheels. I don't want to risk not ever being able to walk into a bike shop and buy parts.

I will agree that 650c wheels climb a lot better, corner a lot better, and generally made me feel a lot fresher for the run.

LOL... there are a lot of things for a racing bike that would be hard to find on Mallorca... my cousin stripped a seatpost collar and couldn't find one anywhere and had to park his bike as well... get off the rock ;-)

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

Rule 1, don't ever take a racing bike to Mallorca. Take your training ROAD bike. With 10,000 guys on bikes on any given spring week, being on a racing bike (and particularly a tri bike) is really dumb. Rule 2, check every nut and bolt on your bike before you go and bring all your own parts because even with 10,000 cyclists you can't buy any parts even at the bike shops by the hotels, which are never open. Rule 3, bring your own first aid kit and severe trauma kit because medical facilities there suck, and the pharmacies are never open either. If you have a laceration, you will have to stitch yourself with your hotel sewing kit.

Agreed on the convenience factor. I'd like to be able to use the same race wheels on both my road and tri bike, as opposed to having to buy two pairs of say, Zipps. I would even go as far as to own just one set of training wheels and swap between my road and tri bike, just for cost reasons. I can only ride one bike at a time anyway!

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"Hey man hey man... your mom still make that Thai food?"

The benefit of using smaller wheels isn't just that it gets the front end low. There's also the problem of wheel overlap. I'm 5'4" and ride a 48 cm bike with 700 wheels, and I have to be really careful when I make slow, sharp turns because my foot smacks right into my wheel. Very disconcerting.

in answer to your post:

1. strictly from a design point of view, frankly, i am absolutely positively right and you are just dead flat wrong. dead flat absolutely wrong. for tri bikes built under 50cm, there is no way you can build the bike properly with 700c wheels. no way. you can build it, and it can be ridden. but you can't do it right. this is what i do for a living, all day long, designing these bikes, building these bikes, fitting people to them, teaching others to fit on them, consulting with the bike companies who build them. if there were good ways to build these bikes with 700c wheels, i'd be happy to acknowledge this. i make no money from the 650c gods. it's all the same either way to me. but you just can't make these bikes correctly with 700c. so that's the design issue. now onto the other...

2. yes, there is more 700c than 650c. but i host people at my ranch monthly, and i have about 2 dozen bikes here for visitors to ride. they are typically 700c above 52cm and 650c below 50cm, and a little crossover on the margins. i have never had the least amount of problem getting 650c from any tire or wheel manufacturer. now, if what you want to rest your case on is convenience, then you should be railing against tubulars. find a good racing tubular in 650c or 700c from a walk-in brick and mortar store when you go to a race and find yourself in need. you'll find 650c clincher rubber a lot more readily in brick and mortar bike shops than you'll find a good racing 700c tubie. does that mean you think tubies are a bad idea for racing? because you can't find them in a pinch? or do you simply plan ahead and bring spare tubies with you?

look, if you're serious about riding your bike, you plan a little ahead. you make sure you have what you need before you go out the door. monty continues to ride 650c even for his 54cm bike, as have plenty of the women who've been part of my social triathlon circle, and for upwards of 20 years of racing and training i've never seen any of them get into trouble with rubber or wheel supply. not once. your argument is a red herring.

i've alluded in my article to the religious aspect of this issue. i'm frankly surprised that after going on 20 years the religion hasn't been debunked. in those 20 years, from my memory, i think the hawaiian ironman has been won by a woman on a 700c bike thrice: by erin baker in 1988, prior to the 650c wheel era; by karen smyers, who is 5'7" and also had to overcome losing 12 minutes to her 650c riding competition during the bike ride; and michellie, who is 6' tall. why are all the fastest times and most of the victories aboard 650c? because most of the victors are 5'6" and shorter, and this is the best design for them. of course, the thing a person tends to do when presented with this history is to go around and find the exceptions to the rule -- the few women who've done well aboard 700c. yes, you'll find some, such as karin thurig (tho her good result is limited to the ride itself, not the finish of the race, and even the world's best female TT rider can't overcome the bike course records set by the triathletes, who are probably average time trialers). and, at some point you've got to come to grips with the RULE, instead of rooting around for the exceptions to the rule.

i ride 700c bikes. i'm 6'2" and my bikes are around 60cm. those who ride 48cm bikes have the same issues i have, but they have them on bikes with head tubes half as tall, and top tubes 15% or 20% shorter. the bikes they ride cannot ride as my bike rides if they ride wheels the same size as those i ride. i wish it were not the case. but it is the case, and that's why virtually no top female triathlete who rides tri bikes seriously has won spit on anything on 700c wheel bikes, unless you're talking about women who don't ride well anyway and just run their way to victory, or women 6' tall. when you look at this as a practical issue, and not a religious one, the facts and results are quite clear.

but maybe you're right and i'm wrong. in this case, the remedy is simple. please provide here the 700c geometry for a tri bike for a 5'4" woman. present it here, all the specs, all the dimensions, and we'll see if that bike is actually desirable versus the 650c design for that woman.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Whew! I just wanted to say "thanks" for the "small bikes" article. I'm 5' and very small. It is has been very difficult finding small bikes so Craig Calfee built a 46 for me-which I love. I don't think a could ride a bike with 700C wheels. The stand over height would be too great no to mention the handling on descents. We are a family of three, all use 650C for the reason that one can just grab a wheel/tube, ect. However, we all fight over who will use the better race wheels-depends who has more at stake. It's usually me so I'm happy with this situation. ;-)

PS also seems easier to put all the bikes, standing with wheels on, in the back of our toyota rav-4!

Thanks for the article. I'm 5'2", I have a shorter torso (relative to my legs). Till last summer I had 650CC bikes, I felt not happy on it. My legs/knee where to high over the bike when is was pedaling. Since last summer i've this bike:

http://www.roseversand.de/...=10&detail2=8018

It's a compact build frame. The standover height is good for me.

Last summer I was with my old bike, a Principia rcs s6, 650 CC in Germany. I had a little accident. I had not enough tires with me. No bikeshop with 650 CC tires in the whole surrounding

Petra

gotta watch that CC stuff-check out "slowman" thread

dan.

you didn't answer the post. in typical ST fashion you polarized the gist of my post, set it up as a straw man, and then used that to go off on your own argument - nobody does it better. i was not railing against 650 wheels, and if you go back and look you will see there is nothing in the post for me to be "absolutely wrong" about - i was pointing out that you neglected to offer a few of the downsides (that the market, at least, clearly recognizes) of 650 wheels and i asked a question. if you say there are no downsides tho - then that must be the case - sorry. past that, i think that small bikes present a few design problems, and 650's go a long way toward solving a lot of them - this is hardly new or innovative. but for many people 650's themselves present some other problems . . . . . so a little individualized compromise makes sense, as opposed to blanket black/white "solutions".

incidentally, i think you DO get paid by the 650 gods - in the sense that you deliver a very clearly defined philosophy/product of design for a fee to companies and your personal use of 650's is in that product. in that sense your article - just like your paid-for magazine bike "tests" - is to some degree yet an another thinly veiled sales ploy for that design product, as opposed to a discussion. fine by me - you do that all the time, get paid for it, and you do it very very well - just come clean about what it is ( for once ). other smart people DO make good small bikes with 700C wheels, and they have reasons for it - it IS possible. including some of those reasons into the article would have been a discussion - railing about how you are absolutely right and i am absolutely wrong . . . . . . sounds like an angry god. whatever. speaking of which - i thought i paid adequate homage to your genius in my first paragraph !! guess not.

anyway, to answer your question directly - all i asked was why not just lose the spacers and drop a negative rise stem onto say, that orbea, if you really do need the bars that low and you are a person who wishes 700C wheels for practical reasons ( ie, access to the husband's 808's ). i suspect some buyers of the orbea will do exactly that, and be fine. apart from maybe you not getting paid by orbea for bike design fees and thus not giving them your paid-for ST-blessing - where is the huge problem ?

I agree, my road bike is a 51 with 700's and I have a big overlap which can get really scary at times.

Now my tri bike is a 48 with 650's and has no overlap at all. I was totally against 650's before I got this bike but my local fitter said it was the best bike for me so I went with it.

As for finding tires, tubes and rims, they are all over the place where I live. I can go 2 miles down the road and get them, in fact I can think of 3 shops within 15 minutes of me and a fourth shop 30 minutes away.

jaretj

t-t-n,

could you recommend a well designed road frame that uses 700 wheels with 50cm or less toptube, sub 72cm standover, and no toe overlap?