IT - Have you ever tried to swim 2.4 mi after running 26 and biking 112??? I think you might find it very, very, very hard even if you swam it all breaststroke and elementary backstroke. The swim is generally first in triathlon for safety reasons. Obv in a short sprint race this is not that big of an issue and so sometimes the swim is last, but i think a race with anything much over a 400m, or at most an 800m swim, would be the limit.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Jason, thanks for answering these three questions.

Do you practice sighting in a pool? My answer - yes.

If so how much does it slow you down? My answer - not at all, slightly faster because I do two breaststrokes and it gives my arms a break and I'm actually faster.

How much faster are you while drafting? My answer - don't really know. Don't do it in a pool and I get impatient in the OW and move on past other MOP when perhaps I could sit in.

How many people have been kicked hard, besides me, by a freestyle kick?

Back to how far behind or away one should be:

From a cycling background if someone was overlapping your rear wheel and not a teammate, you're to switch quickly and clip their front wheel to take them out. This wasn't done every time; yet, you quickly learned not to get so close that they could. Maybe this was just cycling legend but many a crash was created by overlapping someone's rear wheel.

And in running, runners clip heels and fall. Poor Mary Decker and Jim Ryun in the Olympics!

Even with pro triathletes and pro swimmers, I read where they get broken jaws or worse from - freestyle kicking. How is that explained away and not brought up when complaining about breaststroke swimmers?

While swimming, I've developed the habit of leading with my arms (in free and breast) rather than my head especially while following but also when visibility is poor. It might be slightly over-gliding or perhaps an elliptical stroke; yet I'm quick to get my hand back to front leading the way to go faster knowing I will touch toes rather than get kicked. I take it as my fault when something happens to me. I'm may not be a good example of a swimmer because like cycling or running, I'm really picky as to who I would draft off or follow.

PS Thanks again for your swimming help. Finally swam those descending 100s that you wrote about and it was a real Yes workout. Before then as many ascended as descended.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Do I practice sighting in a pool, no. I can sight just fine, thanks to lots of time playing waterpolo as a kid, etc.

How much does it slow me? Dunno. The only time I sight is swimming open water, and I don't have a reliable way of measuring my speed. It's slower though, and more importantly, it uses more energy.

How much faster drafting, hard to say. In practice, if I'm going second in the lane rather than leading the lane, I'd guess 2-3 secs per 100.

Most people don't do breaststroke in triathlons, so the frequency of breaststroke injuries is going to be lower in absolute numbers. However, you will only get kicked by a freestyle swimmer if you're climbing over their back. I don't do that. A breaststroke kick goes wider, and if you're swimming free then suddenly switch to breast, I might think I'm in a safe spot able to pass, when suddenly I'm not, through no fault of my own.

Leading with your hand is useless if the kick is coming from the side. You've just described why it is more courteous to swim freestyle, (or backstroke, or breast with a dolphin kick, or breast pull, or sidestroke) because someone swimming behind you has a chance to react.

I really hope when you ride you don't deliberately take out other riders if they happen to snooze for a sec and overlap wheels, or even if they're idiots and overlap the whole time. Hell, in an echelon you need to overlap wheels on occasion, depending on wind direction. Yes, if you're overlapping wheels then you are putting yourself in a more dangerous situation, but I've never been in a race where people deliberately took out another rider. Why? Because you'll see that guy you took out at the next race.

How do you determine if a swimmer is worthy of being drafted, assuming you don't know them? My criteria is if they are going a little faster than me if I don't know the other people in the race.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Who do I follow? Someone a little better than me, of course. Otherwise, I don't feel like heads down swimming or cycling because I could be barely hanging on and go into them.

You say AND there are more cases of professional triathletes and swimmers with facial fractures, injuries and perhaps fatalities from freestyle kicking because there is simply more freestyle kicking. Sounds like we need some ankle bands on these guys during races. Everyone in the MOP says Aye.

Picking on the breaststroke kick is a straw man in your argument because the larger problem are swimmers too close to one another given their ability, like Cat 3-5 cyclists who crash each other.

In cycling clipping the wheel behind you, was probably sarcastic talk amongst teammates. With the Schwinn team we did practice and race with a "sweeper" at the back of our team to keep others from disrupting the team. The reason for echeloning in the wind is to drop someone. Your team only allots enough space for each other to the curb. That's how the pack breaks up and you get teams chasing other teams with individuals going off the back.

We might be enjoying this discussion too much ;)

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

n=1, my only substantial hit from OW swimming was a breaststroke kick square in my chest. Guy decided to do a breaststroke kick(s) in the pile up going around the first buoy. Because it hit me in the chest it didn't do much more than make me lose a breath, but it it had clipped me in the face it could've easily broken my nose. In 20+ years of freestyle swimming I've never had anything worse than brushing a foot with my hand.

Lapped and swam over guy once at lake placid (didn't get kicked in the process). Felt mildly bad about it, but it didn't occur to me that I would be lapping anyone, and I had been swimming the cable with the same small pack for the last 3/4 of a lap.

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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. ~Gandalf

Burhed, don't be trolling intentionally, the younger crowd picks up on that right away and will call you on it. The older crowd seems to catch on much later.

Still stand by learning other strokes to help your freestyle.

Your question did bring out a good discussion of what to swim and how to swim. I'm still in the camp of swimming like I ride. Sometimes while riding in a group, we sit higher up on the brake hoods for a break or have to stop fast because someone in front is stopping. We then don't want the person behind us crashing into us, saying it's our fault and whining on ST.

It's amazing how people feel, especially when they are race pumped, about someone doing something unexpected in front of them. The experience stays with them for a long time and they continue to blame others.

Here is some advice:

1) You could get kicked by a freestyle kick or a breaststroke kick.
2) Don't swim in what is called the blind spot while driving or wheel overlapping in cycling.
3) Swim behind them with an ability to slow or stop or swim side by side or pass.
4) Drafting in swimming might be over rated as there is a risk/reward trade off to drafting far enough behind to get some benefit safely. I've also seen 50 people go way off course following their draft.
5) How fast you are might play into drafting and not sighting frequently. For some, going off course by 50 yards might only mean 30 seconds or less. For others, it would mean a 60 seconds or more and a lot of frustration.

Not only do many triathletes not know how to ride a bike in a pack, many don't know how to swim in a pack. Some want swim lanes in the OW and don't like it if someone does something that interferes with their race. They don't seem to realize that the rules of the road apply in the water too - it's the person behind the others that is responsible for avoiding what is front of them or the person behind is at fault for following too closely.

Please don't troll, I'm often one of the last to catch on.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I started swimming at age 26. In about 5 years I was :58.88 for 100IM (scy) and 2:11.x for 200IM. I don't know that it helped my open water swimming any, but I don't know that it hurt, either. The only swimming injury I've had in the intervening 30 years was a groin pull from doing breaststroke (my second best stroke), so maybe doing other stuff helped my shoulders remain injury free. That, and never topping 20k yards in a week!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Putting the swim last in the triathlon would create a cult of dead triathletes.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

 
Jesus IT, you are thick.

There is a limited amount of space in a tri swim and a ton of people in that space. Common courtesy would dictate we all do what we can to get each other through the swim in an efficient and SAFE manner. Especially at the speeds you swim, it's not like you are going to win anything anyway, why can't you adjust a bit to avoid injuring others?

I am a slow swimmer too so you can forget the swim weenie retort. In an IM swim there are over 2k people sharing the same water. In my IM this past summer when I swam up behind someone who was freestyle swimming and brushed their feet they would stop kicking, I would move to the side and go around. Same if I felt a hand on my foot, I would stop kicking for a few strokes and hold my line so they could get around easily and SAFELY.

I ran into a few jerks like you who chose to stop freestyle as I went around and breaststroke kicked me in the side and chest. If I had caught one of those in the face it could have ended my day. I don't care if you breaststroke for a small break when you really need it, but leave the kick at home. It is dangerous to the athletes around you no matter how fast they swim.

Stop being so obtuse and consider implementing a little common courtesy in your next race.

started at 26 and 58/2:11 in 5 years staying under 20k/week. That is call GIFTED ;) the rules just dont apply to you..... you got a freebie with the swim

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I did my first 50scy free after training for about 4 months: :26.57. It wasn't pretty, though.

:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

you wont be making friends posting stuff like this! and they dont give prices for the pretty style....only for speed so your all good!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

aarondb4, really don't know you well enough nor want to insult you.

If it's as you say, why haven't they made rules against breaststroke? If you want, approach RDs and others for a rules change.

I don't recall writing that this is to be purposely done in a group. I think I wrote "while sighting". Usually, I'm not in a large group for long because at less than 150lbs I only want so much jostling and swimming in the chop of bigger swimmers. My preference would be for someone like me, while your preference is for someone like you. Don't fault you for your preference.

Yet, you and others continue to run down swimmers who don't conform to your idea of what a swimmer in a triathlon should be. This reinforces my opinion that some triathletes are prima donnas and type A personalities who get tweaked when something or someone doesn't go their way.

Why not a live and let live approach and be ready for whatever comes up whenever it comes up when racing? Otherwise, go make a rule and many people follow the rules or don't race if it's a show stopper. If triathlon participation drops and the number of races decrease, maybe the people left will be like you.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

 
Most people don't need a rule to figure out it is not a great idea to kick other people in the head neck and chest. Apparently you are the sort of person that needs that kind of rule. I guess I should not be surprised based on your earlier comment about taking down riders who overlap wheels. I don't generally try to put people in the hospital for overlapping my wheel.

My way of swimming is considerate and does not injure anyone. Your way of swimming is inconsiderate and has a high probability of hurting another athlete. I guess there is no rule against someone holding your head underwater after you kick them in the face so be prepared in the future.

aarondb4, there are so many outrages in the world and you seem to pick the breaststroke kick over genocide, war, etc. I guess it's true that some people feel that stubbing their own toe is the worst thing that is happening in the world at that moment.

My advice to you is don't race. You seem too high strung, not willing to look ahead or avoid others. Maybe you have a personality and swim style that invites being kicked.

I don't need a rule and I want an uneventful swim and race as anyone else. Your strong feelings though remind me of the saying "There ought to be a law".

I have seen many a freestyle swimmer with such a compensating kerplunk kick that the kick was wide and violent as a breaststroke kick. Maybe you were kicked in the head by one of those. Nevertheless, many professionals have kicked other professionals with a freestyle kick that concussed and broke bones. The freestyle kick is not a harmless kick.

Maybe we can have world peace by making a rule change that requires pull buoy (with swim bands if necessary) to keep people from kicking one another during the swim as your moral outrage on this issue seems to be ahead of terrorism in the world.

Chill man. Peace out. Love you Aaron.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I think butterfly, backstroke and breaststroke have a place in triathlon training. Here is how I see them:
Butterfly- is strength and short interval training. It is exactly like hill repeats in running, and should be used in exactly the same way. I will use it to build power in the early part of a training cycle.
(To be replaced by sprinting later on).
Backstroke- is a great recovery stroke. It uses muscles in an opposite and complementary way to freestyle. It will help develop a more balanced musculature and a better "feel" for the water.
Breaststroke- uses muscles in a very different way. I think the kick is particularly helpful in stretching out sore run/bike legs.
Turns/dolphin kick- develop core strength.

Butterfly/back/breast/good turns/dolphin kick- seem like a good alternative to weights- that is if the goal is to swim/bike/run fast without injury. (Not so much if you want to impress others with your biceps and pecks).