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Re: dopers vs course cutters [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
Purgatory is merely a Penalty Box, Hell is the ETERNAL DQ
I laughed very hard at this -- thank you!

http://mediocremultisport.blogspot.com
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Cmore wrote:

(I don't know how to use the pink font yet)


STEP 1: HIGHLIGHT WHAT YOU WANT PINK





STEP 2: CLICK THE TEXT COLOR BUTTON (LETTER "A" WITH RED UNDERLINE ON TOOLBAR)





STEP 3: CHOOSE THE MOST PINK OPTION







STEP 4: CLICK OKAY AND VIOLA






Last edited by: champy: Sep 4, 15 6:13
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [flogazo] [ In reply to ]
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flogazo wrote:
eggplantOG wrote:
99.9% chance they're all juiced to the gills. I see pro athletes as victims, they need to do it to go 7 50. It's either you've been caught or you know how to cycle a stack imo just look at the positive tests it's always for nandralone or something long acting only noobs are getting caught. the difference is that an ag doesn't need to do it to play


No real way to know imho. I am always amazed at people who are flat out saying that they think that all the pros dope. How can you stay in the sport when you are that disillusioned?
I'd rather run the chance of being a little naive and believe that there is at least a majority (including Hawaii champions) that doesn't use prohibited substances.
It's not hard to enjoy the sport without caring that the top end may be full of EPO. If thinking that the top people were doping meant you couldn't enjoy the sport, then cycling would have stopped existing in the 90s.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [champy] [ In reply to ]
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 STEP 1: HIGHLIGHT WHAT YOU WANT PINK





STEP 2: CLICK THE TEXT COLOR BUTTON (LETTER "A" WITH RED UNDERLINE ON TOOLBAR)





STEP 3: CHOOSE THE MOST PINK OPTION







STEP 4: CLICK OKAY AND VIOLA


Thanks.

Last edited by: Cmore: Sep 4, 15 6:17
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Mine didn't even smell today.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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sub-3-dad wrote:

I'd say > 10% for all participants.
> 25% for the podium.

That is my wishful conservative estimate which implies that the podium can be clean.

Really depends on the level of competition. At local and regional races, I think you're overly pessimistic. At the top levels of the sport, that's a different matter. I regularly AG podium at races in the New England area and I'm clean and have no reason to believe that most or even all of my competition isn't clean either. Just don't see any amazing changes year to year or performances that seem superhuman, at least regionally in my geezer age group. But I'm no where near fast enough to podium at larger national races, and your estimate is probably reasonable for those events, after all, a well-known convicted doper is near the top of the national rankings in my AG.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Cmore wrote:
Definitely. We are in the "all about me" era. Selfies, round white stickers on the back of cars, etc. Which reminds me, I just took my morning #2. I better go to facebook and post about it complete with pictures. I am so important and awesome that someone will want to know about it!

Funny you should mention it ... this was posted yesterday

http://werunandride.com/...eeping-and-shitting/

Quote:
You probably don’t want to think about that, but now it’s too late. The next time you get a weird, vacuous post from a Friend give it some thought. Could they be sitting on the shitter?

And what about Strava? Could there be anything more entertaining while taking a crap than looking at your Run or Ride stats and those engaging little maps that show where you went? I think not. Strava was born to entertain athletes occupied with taking a good crap.

Actually there ought to be an app just to measure your efforts on the toilet. Call it JockStool or TriPoop or SphincterLinkter. Something like that. You could take pictures and share them with your friends. “Nine inches today,” a typical post might say. “That’s a PR! Poop Record!”

You're welcome

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [IronLady] [ In reply to ]
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Did Maslow ever release a "Hierarchy of Cheating" Pyramid?



“Bloom wherever you are planted"
Last edited by: K-DUB: Sep 4, 15 8:22
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
sub-3-dad wrote:

I'd say > 10% for all participants.
> 25% for the podium.

That is my wishful conservative estimate which implies that the podium can be clean.


Really depends on the level of competition. At local and regional races, I think you're overly pessimistic. At the top levels of the sport, that's a different matter. I regularly AG podium at races in the New England area and I'm clean and have no reason to believe that most or even all of my competition isn't clean either. Just don't see any amazing changes year to year or performances that seem superhuman, at least regionally in my geezer age group. But I'm no where near fast enough to podium at larger national races, and your estimate is probably reasonable for those events, after all, a well-known convicted doper is near the top of the national rankings in my AG.

Doping isn't cheap either. The doper is a different kind of beast psychologically to the cutter.

The cutter is a fraudster, a serial con artist, someone who runs a podium-based Ponzi scheme. Reading some of blogs from such is almost grotesque.

The doper is more of an obsessive addict, willing to lay health, risks, and rules in pursuit of the highest level of competitive grunt. The doper may also be part of a team initiative, team orders, needs the technical skills, enablers, yes men, and $ to pull it off etc. So I guess that is why it ranks "below" the cutter. You need to be a great athlete, but in a corrupt system. Certainly at the elite level, there is whole org chart around the doper.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [IronLady] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, but I am public about not caring about doping very much for a variety of reasons.

Think of it this way, inevitably we have all had a thought that goes like this:

"If I doped up historical athlete XXX (Emil Zatopec) and gave him a nice pair of modern shoes, how would he do against modern doped up superstar athlete (lets face, they all probably are to a certain extent...) who would win?"

There is no comparable hypothetical for course cutting.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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The modern age course cutter would win, the have google maps to plan their short cuts.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [IronLady] [ In reply to ]
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I find them equal, time spent doing whatever isn't really part of the equation for me... it isn't a complicated order of operations for me. I find cheating falls into shortcuts in our sport in some way be it an aero advantage, cutting the course, using banned substances that are performance enhancers, etc. Shortcuts...

Cheating = disgraceful
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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The difference is the cutter doesn't actually gain a skill or ability. He is a fraud plain and simple and only succeeds in the short term. He/she ends up getting caught because he/she can't physically replicate the feat when questioned about the cheat. The doper however, he/she gains an ability or skill that has lasting if not permanent effects. He can go from a journeyman to a superstar in his chosen sport. That doping may be the difference between making a roster or getting cut. Making a podium or looking at the 3 who did. Or it might be the difference between being a simple cycling domestique or winning 7 yellow jerseys. It can turn a singles hitting baseball star into the all time home leader. It can make ordinary football players into monsters, both on and off the field. Then when the juice is taken away..........reality comes back.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Cmore wrote:
Then when the juice is taken away..........reality comes back.

Yeah, Barry Bonds's head has kinda returned to normal size



"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Cmore wrote:
Dopers are far,far worse than course cutters, bib switchers, etc. Course cutters are "amateur" cheats at best. They usually have a short term goal and think of the easiest solution to achieve that goal. No real effort involved, just some planning and execution. They are not risking life and limb.

Dopers however, they are the "professional" cheats. They are in it for the long haul. They are already doped to the gills with legal supplements. They have tried everything over the counter, from GNC, etc. trying to get that edge. They already have so many chemicals going in and out of their bodies. They are doped to the gill gear wise as well. Always have to have the latest bike, wheels, etc in order to have that edge. They are no different than the common crack or meth addict, just no rotting teeth or favors for drugs. They are the ones meeting their "dealer" in a back alley or anti aging clinic and buying illegal substances. They are the ones sticking themselves with a needle every day. Got to have that fix. It doesn't matter what it is doing to their body. Their whole life is a lie and they will do anything to hide that fact and conceal it.


I hope you are not implying that there is a correlation between those that know the data and are fortunate enough to be able to keep up with improvements in equipment and those who would cheat their fellow competitors by taking banned PEDs. Your argument seems dangerously close to suggesting that if an athlete seeks out the very best equipment in order to go as fast as he possibly can, then we can expect that he will dope because that too will assist him in going as fast as he possibly can.

I know my equipment choices (aero road helmet, Enve wheels, Zipp bars, etc. on the road bike and P5 with similar goodies on the TT bike) help make me go faster. I also know I could go even faster (possibly much faster) with EPO and all the rest in the system. But just because I make one set of perfectly legal choices in order to go fast does not mean I will make another set of illegal (and immoral) choices in order to achieve the same result.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Last edited by: refthimos: Sep 4, 15 10:54
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Whatleytom] [ In reply to ]
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Whatleytom wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to how course cutting is still possible, given electronic timing at most races, and that probably 80% of athletes are wearing some sort of GPS tracking.

I neither endorse cheating nor have I ever cheated in a race - ever. But it's not hard to circumvent the chip if the person is willing to sink low enough:

For marathons, the location of the timing mats is in the race results from the previous year. Most courses double back on themselves for at least part of the way(courses like Boston being an exception), so you can cut miles off the course and still hit the mats.

For IMs, the only one I've done is IM Lou, but for any bike course that's open to traffic, I can see a cheater pulling off a side road to a pre-designated meet point with someone with a vehicle. As above, they know where the mats are, so they could attach the chip to the car bumper and drive their way to way to a PR.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Cmore wrote:
They are already doped to the gills with legal supplements. They have tried everything over the counter, from GNC, etc. trying to get that edge. They already have so many chemicals going in and out of their bodies. They are doped to the gill gear wise as well. Always have to have the latest bike, wheels, etc in order to have that edge. They are no different than the common crack or meth addict, just no rotting teeth or favors for drugs. They are the ones meeting their "dealer" in a back alley or anti aging clinic and buying illegal substances. They are the ones sticking themselves with a needle every day. Got to have that fix. It doesn't matter what it is doing to their body. Their whole life is a lie and they will do anything to hide that fact and conceal it.



This confuses the issue. Legal supplements are not doping. Legal gear is not doping.

Doping is doping. It's very, very well-defined what doping is.

There are legions of gear heads and supplement whores who having nothing to do with doping.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 4, 15 12:00
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Well...not really. It is a marginal difference in performance in the positive direction - which is huge in professional leagues where margins are where the wins and losses are - but they won't take an overweight lazy slob and make them into an athlete. When I was into bodybuilding the whole point of PEDs was to make sure you could work out more. Guys that took PEDs but didn't increase their workout schedule looked fat and weird, not to mention pimply. In other words, the PED makes you able to put more effort forth, course cutting requires less effort. If we are doing an even playing field argument, the reality in cycling is/was that all the top guys were doing it. Most baseball players are doing it, don't think they aren't in the NBA/NFL. As a result the field is more or less even. That isn't true in course cutting unless everyone is cutting at the same points.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [gellerche] [ In reply to ]
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gellerche wrote:
Whatleytom wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to how course cutting is still possible, given electronic timing at most races, and that probably 80% of athletes are wearing some sort of GPS tracking.


I neither endorse cheating nor have I ever cheated in a race - ever. But it's not hard to circumvent the chip if the person is willing to sink low enough:

For marathons, the location of the timing mats is in the race results from the previous year. Most courses double back on themselves for at least part of the way(courses like Boston being an exception), so you can cut miles off the course and still hit the mats.

For IMs, the only one I've done is IM Lou, but for any bike course that's open to traffic, I can see a cheater pulling off a side road to a pre-designated meet point with someone with a vehicle. As above, they know where the mats are, so they could attach the chip to the car bumper and drive their way to way to a PR.

Not so fast.

At least for sportstats timed events>

They have some analytics that they run at least on the top 40 in each age group who could get a rolldown spot. If your pace dramatically changes vs your average you will be singled out and a DQ may be recommended. Now in fairness your pace on one leg could be really slow due to a flat or cramps, so they have another layer where they look a the median pace variation between splits. If yours are dramatically off in terms of how they vary, you will be flagged and investigated and likely recommended for DQ.

As I said, they usually flag and recommend 5-10 athletes per race for DQ to Ironman officials. It's not that easy for someone to cheat the system.
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [eggplantOG] [ In reply to ]
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eggplantOG wrote:
99.9% chance they're all juiced to the gills. I see pro athletes as victims, they need to do it to go 7 50. It's either you've been caught or you know how to cycle a stack imo just look at the positive tests it's always for nandralone or something long acting only noobs are getting caught. the difference is that an ag doesn't need to do it to play

This is my view on pretty much all sports. I can see how a pro-athlete whose livelihood depends on performance could justify doping. I don't see how an Age Grouper can. I was a bodybuilder and power lifter for years. I never understood why bar body types or even the local competitors felt the need to juice up. Frankly I think all form of PEDs should be legal, but whether allowed or not depends on the sport. But you are kidding yourself if you think with money on the line, guys aren't getting bigger, faster, and stronger without help of the latest technology that is harder and harder to catch. If you cycle correctly, you will not test positive at race time. The benefits of doping have long been materialized.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
eggplantOG wrote:
99.9% chance they're all juiced to the gills. I see pro athletes as victims, they need to do it to go 7 50. It's either you've been caught or you know how to cycle a stack imo just look at the positive tests it's always for nandralone or something long acting only noobs are getting caught. the difference is that an ag doesn't need to do it to play


This is my view on pretty much all sports. I can see how a pro-athlete whose livelihood depends on performance could justify doping. I don't see how an Age Grouper can. I was a bodybuilder and power lifter for years. I never understood why bar body types or even the local competitors felt the need to juice up. Frankly I think all form of PEDs should be legal, but whether allowed or not depends on the sport. But you are kidding yourself if you think with money on the line, guys aren't getting bigger, faster, and stronger without help of the latest technology that is harder and harder to catch. If you cycle correctly, you will not test positive at race time. The benefits of doping have long been materialized.

I see a lot of posts similar to this saying that they can understand why some do it for money, but can't understand amateurs doing it. Different people are motivated by different things. Some are monetarily motivated. Others not. Some are motivated by what they perceive as social status. Others not. Everyone has their own reasons.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [TriMyBest] [ In reply to ]
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Doping so you can pick up hot chicks at the bar or pose in a mirror is a self esteem issue. Doping because you want to win as an age grouper is somewhere between that and destructive competitiveness. Doping for a paycheck may be the difference between paying rent or your mortgage. I'm a lot more comfortable with that justification. Forcing others to dope so you can, is psychopathic behavior.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [cougie] [ In reply to ]
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cougie wrote:
But if you magically lose your chip - the mats don't matter to you. Looks like you only get DQ'd if someone kicks up a fuss ?

Exactly. Too bad if you lose your chip. It is your responsibility to make sure it is there. It's evidently the only way to make sue it's a fair fight.

I would never have believed all these cheaters out there. I just assume fair play.

Maybe in the end this will be a good thing and people will be on the alert for cheaters and watch their fellow competitors.
Thanks Julie Miller from Squamish!
Last edited by: Ty: Sep 5, 15 10:22
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
I'm 99.9% sure that at the very least a significant minority of pro athletes are clean. Maybe if you're looking at World and Olympic finalists in an event like the 100m then you might be 90-something percent, but not triathletes.

i'm sure many pro triathletes are clean just not the ones that are going 8 flat
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Re: dopers vs course cutters [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
gellerche wrote:
Whatleytom wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to how course cutting is still possible, given electronic timing at most races, and that probably 80% of athletes are wearing some sort of GPS tracking.


I neither endorse cheating nor have I ever cheated in a race - ever. But it's not hard to circumvent the chip if the person is willing to sink low enough:

For marathons, the location of the timing mats is in the race results from the previous year. Most courses double back on themselves for at least part of the way(courses like Boston being an exception), so you can cut miles off the course and still hit the mats.

For IMs, the only one I've done is IM Lou, but for any bike course that's open to traffic, I can see a cheater pulling off a side road to a pre-designated meet point with someone with a vehicle. As above, they know where the mats are, so they could attach the chip to the car bumper and drive their way to way to a PR.


Not so fast.

At least for sportstats timed events>

They have some analytics that they run at least on the top 40 in each age group who could get a rolldown spot. If your pace dramatically changes vs your average you will be singled out and a DQ may be recommended. Now in fairness your pace on one leg could be really slow due to a flat or cramps, so they have another layer where they look a the median pace variation between splits. If yours are dramatically off in terms of how they vary, you will be flagged and investigated and likely recommended for DQ.

As I said, they usually flag and recommend 5-10 athletes per race for DQ to Ironman officials. It's not that easy for someone to cheat the system.

Good point - I assumed that a timing company is a timing company is a timing company. It's just that I've seen too much on the other side of the spectrum.

Case in point - I had a years-long problem with a guy who cheated in a marathon where we were in the M40-44 AG. Despite being heavily overweight, he would always do low- or sub-3s. But despite always missing at least one timing mat and never appearing in race photos, the RD wouldn't take action until I reported him. And that's a case where the timing mats were missing checkpoints. If he'd taken the time to hit the mats, my reporting may not've done anything.
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