I'd go for the HED's but that may just be me. I also would probably go for a Hed3 front rather than a Hed3C, for the braking performance of an Al rim.

The $600 price difference will pay for a lot of other stuff.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I have the Zipp 999 set up and think they are fantastic. I really doubt there is any difference between them and the Hed wheels but I would rather have Zipp wheels. They seem to hold their value better, and are significantly lighter. I am not sure what an ultra light disc from Hed is, but it doesn't appear to be very light compared to other wheels. How about a Renn disc? Seems like the most bang for the buck to me - FWIW. Pick any good front wheel to go with it. That's what I would get if I was starting over.

If it were me and I wanted to race tubulars I would get a Renn disc and a Hed Stinger 90 front.

If clinchers I would still get a Renn disc and then a Hed Jet 90 front.

Absolutely no compromise on aerodynamics with those wheels and a bargain compared to Zipps.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

"Hed ultra-light disc with a Hed3C front and it would cost me $900 new"

ooh. that's killer.

now, did i understand you right? "the Zipp dealer says the zipps are way faster than the heds."

every wind tunnel test that i've ever been to, or seen the data from, indicated that the disc is the fastest wheel, and that pretty much all discs are the same (aerodynamically). the second fastest wheel has always been the HED3 nee specialized tri spoke.

so, since you've got the fastest and second fastest wheels (front/rear) as one wheelset, how can the other wheelset be way faster?

i don't think your LBS really said this. i think this must be flame bait and i fell for it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

that is something to think about, i never really thought about the braking difference. I do not really brake all that often during a race, except when coming in to T2 a little to hot and almost overshoot the dismount line a couple of times.

is the braking on the carbon/silica rims that much more reduced for racing wheels.

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GO4 SMOOOOOOTH AND FAST

not really reduced, but not as consistent. carbon rims tend to be grabbier, harder to modulate, and often don't work as well in the wet. the newer ones are better, but still not as good as Al.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

never a flame on any product, every product has it's niche and some will pay for the extra, but I am looking for which will be faster and help shed some seconds off my splits for this season.

But, I thought it was really weird they said that to, I really liked Steve and Anne Hed's products and they are always really support the Minneapolis tri scene and show up to some races to give away swag.

From comparing the data I also thought the Hed set up would be extremely fast, then when talking with my lbs they were more skewed towards the zipp products. I did not get the answer I was looking for from them so I thought this would be a good place to get some insight.

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GO4 SMOOOOOOTH AND FAST

So......really any good disc (flat or lenticular) and a HED 3 combo is the best (most aero) set up?
Even better than say a Zipp 999 or Blackwell(Zipp)disc and a 100 front?

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I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

"any good (flat or lenticular) and a HED 3 combo is the best (most aero) set up?"

i can only tell you what i've seen from the wind tunnel. it's up to you to decide whether that's good data or not, or whether there are any other issues to be concerned about.

i wrote an article about this very subject and sent it off to a publisher yesterday. depending on the magazines to which you subscribe you may see this article in some weeks. the theme is, there are other things besides aerodynamics that affect how fast you'll go.

but, just in terms of wind type stuff, what data is there that supports the idea that anything is faster than a disc, flat or lenticular? and what data is there that supports the idea that anything other than a disc beats, or even equals, the hed3/specialized trispoke? you tell me? (or show me).

that's what i'm referring to. and more to the point, does your LBS have such data? in the absence of it, what's the basis of your LBS saying what it said to you? other than it can't get HED wheels, or it makes a better margin on zipp wheels.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I could be wrong, but I've been under the impression that a Hed3 was the most aerodynamic wheel after a disk applied before the introduction of wheels like the 808, Hed Stinger 90 / Jet 90 (as a front wheel), and Blackwell 100. Is there any data that suggests the Hed3 is still the most aerodynamic? I've thought the Hed3 was very similar to the 404, so it would seem in the absence of data that the "super" deep section wheels might be more aero than a HED 3.

In the end I suspect the differences are very, very small. Pick the wheel you can get the best deal on and/or you like the best.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

One potential downside the the HED ultralight disc is that the carbon is pretty soft. I found this out the hard way when warming up on the trainer with my HED disc leaning against a folding chair. The wind picked up and blew the disc over into the trainer and it put a hole in wall of the disc! It didnt hurt to much as it is a 180 dollar used disc, but the disc looks pretty battered from the original user. I regard the HED wheels as great performance for the price and Zipp as performance is #1 and price no object. I doubt the difference will make more than a few seconds difference, if the seconds matter and you have the cash then go for the Zipp.

For the record I use a Zipp 404 front, because that was what I got a good price on used. If I had found a good deal on the HED 3 I would have bought that instead.

KR

that's what i'm referring to. and more to the point, does your LBS have such data? in the absence of it, what's the basis of your LBS saying what it said to you? other than it can't get HED wheels, or it makes a better margin on zipp wheels.[/reply]


Its not my thread!......LOL.....I'mjust tossing out the question......

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I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

I'm with Justin- I was under the impression that the newer 80+mm rims are more aero than a Hed 3 spoke. At least Zipp and Hed's data show this to be true (although some of this depends on yaw angle and what you consider to be "real world" conditions).

I will be interested to read your new article. Care to mention which publication it will be in?

that's what i'm referring to. and more to the point, does your LBS have such data? in the absence of it, what's the basis of your LBS saying what it said to you? other than it can't get HED wheels, or it makes a better margin on zipp wheels.[/reply

Dan

Yes my lbs sells both Zipp and Hed products, but that is a very good thing to consider and I never really was thinking about how much $$ they may make compared to selling the hed. I guess in a perfect world those factors should not come into play and the bike shop should sell you which ever is the best wheel set up for the CUSTOMER and not on how much they can make.

I am getting the wheels through a sponsorship/charity thing and i am not going through my lbs. but I think i will stop by tonight and ask them why the recommended the zipp over the Hed set up to begin with.

from what it sound like though is for the $600 savings it would be better to get the Hed set up, and I can also support a local manufacturing company

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GO4 SMOOOOOOTH AND FAST

The thing to remember here is what wind angles are you measuring the wheels at? I'm not sure what flow regimes Slowman is referring to, but from our historical testing as well as the testing done independantly by Tour magazine and Hed's own data, modern toroidally shaped wheels like the Zipp 808 and the new Hed Stinger 90 best the H3 at wind angles less than about 20-22 degrees. Our own design with the 808 really focused on finding speed between 10 and 20 degrees of yaw (theoretially 60+ percent of all conditions), and with about 18 months of design time and 60+ hours of wind tunnel time we developed the current 404 and 808 rim shapes which are faster than the H3 from 0-~22 degrees of yaw. The new Hed stinger 90 uses a slightly different shape and deeper rim and is more aero than the H3 below 15 degrees of yaw according to both Hed's own data and data we have taken on this wheel at Allied Aerospace.

The H3/Specialized/Dupont wheel is extremely fast, and for the longest time has been the gold standard in aero front wheels, but the last 4 or 5 years have really seen an explosion of technology in rim shapes, spokes, manufacturing techniques, etc. that allow us to produce wheels that are now faster at moderate yaw angles. Past about 22 degrees of yaw, the only thing competitive with the H3 is a disc, which is considerably faster, but you definitely won't be riding the disc as a front wheel at that wind angle! The key to this low drag is that at high yaw angles the drag is purely a function of surface area, something that a 3 or 4 spoke wheel has in spades over a deep or very deep section wheel.

The issue for us is that to acheive 22+ degree wind angles, you need considerably high wind speeds to the point that many if not most people will choose not to ride the wheel for handling considerations. This was one of the major factors in our decision to stop producing 3 spoke wheels some 14 years ago now. Statistically, the 22+ degrees of yaw condition occurs less than 25% of the time, so I really would see a wheel like the H3 or Zipp 3000 3 spoke occupying a place in the wheel arsenal as being a windy day only wheel for those who are comfortable riding it in those conditions. For the other 75% of the time you will be faster on a toroidally shaped very deep section wheel (the patent co-owned by Zipp and Hed) or even a hybrid-toroidal shaped deep rim (the zipp specific patent) which will be aerodynamically faster as well as have considerably less side-force and steering torque due to decreased surface area.

I am yet to test the Blackwell 100 rim, but it is interesting in that John has put some waves in the sidewall to try and control the airflow without infringing our patents for rim shape, I'm not sure if this will have the effect of recapturing the air that is described in the patent but is an interesting concept and we will be taking one to Allied in a few months with some other R&D wheels we are experimenting with.

We have all of this published in a white paper (5 white papers actually), as well as the Tour magazine test reports, that most Zipp dealers should have, but it is not available online at the moment as we are putting our new website up today and everything is a big mess.

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"I will be interested to read your new article. Care to mention which publication it will be in?"

inside tri. last month i wrote about wheel size, this month about wheel type, that is, disc, multi-carbon-spoke, deep dish carbon rim, clincher v sew up, and how all this relates to various road surfaces and course profiles and conditions.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Gear West will ALWAYS recommend Zipp over Hed...but then again, unless things have changed, they have always recommended pumping up tubulars to like 200 psi and using Fast Tack to glue them on too.

"modern toroidally shaped wheels like the Zipp 808 and the new Hed Stinger 90 best the H3 at wind angles less than about 20-22 degrees."

the data to which i refer goes all the way back to the original chet kyle studies in the 80s and every study throughout the 90s.

if i'm not mistaken, the shape to which you refer is that which is originally described in HED's patent, a patent which now zipp and HED co-own. this shape has also been around for 15 years. the CX had this shape and has been the case with of HED's wheels since then, whether 40mm, 60mm, or 90mm deep. i don't remember these wheels ever beating a HED3 (specialized).

but, you're right, most of the data was at 0°, 5°, or 10° of yaw. once you start measuring at yaws in excess of 10°, things change pretty dramatically and i can't predict or pretend to know how the numbers might swing around. i don't know that i'm prepared to stipulate that yaws greater than 10° (but <20°) represent over half the course conditions out there. maybe if you include all the races "theoretically" taking place below the roaring 40s :-)

hey, please understand the backdrop for my comments. if you go to the slowtwitch home page and type zipp into that search utility you'll see a lot of references (78 of them, in fact), all written by me, and you'll find that i say with repetition that there are really just two wheel companies in this sport (HED and zipp). my comments are directed at the assertion that zipp wheels are way faster than HED. that's just a silly thing to say and i could not let it go past.

i also know what you're referring to, which was my call for any data showing that this is the case (and you could not let that pass).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What would be really cool and possibly more useful than product X vs. product Y ( is a cheat sheet on what wheel(s) to use when on different types of courses and in different wind conditions. I think I've read that a rear disc almost always wins even in crosswinds, but not sure about the tri spoke in the front with big cross winds. Would there ever be a situation where you'd want to use a 90 mm rear vs. a disc? If you already have a 90mm rear, how much more benefit would you get from a disc? Maybe you've already written the article or there's stuff out there and if so please point me in the right direction or shed some light if you get a chance.

Would it be close to the truth to say that both Zipps and HEDs are pretty darn nice wheels, and given that nobody is riding into the wind at the same angle for any length of time, that the differences between the two are probably close to nil in actual race conditions? I mean, what could the possible difference be...2-3 seconds over 26 mile or so?

Spot

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