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Zipp vs HED.
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Not to start a war here but I was thinking about something last night as I was drooling over HED's website. I simply love the clean look of their wheels. The Jet C2's in black look awesome. Very clean and elegant. And a much better value than Zipp wheels. Then I started wondering what they would actually look like on a bike. I started flipping through a few tri magazines and realized that 95% of the tri bikes are shown with Zipp wheels. Now I know that Zipp makes an awesome product and I think the Kona bike count shows that they dominate the market. But this got me thinking about why that is.

I know that HED has been around for quite awhile and a lot of people love their products. They are less expensive and therefore are arguably a better value. Yet almost every bike is marketed with Zipp wheels (typically a Zipp disc and a deep dish front). This definitely creates the perception that Zipp is far and away superior to other wheel choices. Then it hit me. Zipp wheels LOOK fast. It is that simple.

Zipp wheels could be the slowest wheels out there (I know that they aren't but even if they were) and they would still look damn fast. It is all about the font they choose. While everyone else out there goes with a pretty standard font, Zipp's logo is made to look like it is in motion. Therefore every bike chooses to market their bike with Zipp's on them because they subconsciuosly (or consciously) make the bike itself look faster.

Now I said that I love the simple elegance of the HED wheels but when I searched for photos of bikes with HED wheels it became obvious to me that the wheels look much better on their own rather than on a bike (not counting the tri spoke wheels here because those look great on pretty much every bike). I know it is a simple style thing but I think we can all admit that aesthetics play a very important role in any bike product purchase we make. I think HED and others would do well to take this under consideration and make some minor logo adjustments that do justice to the great product they are already making.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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The newest HED logos look great...they need to put them on their website.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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And as raced this past weekend:

http://www.indexjournal.com/...70&mediaid=19173

.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah the HED disc looks good but as nice as that bike looks it would look better/faster with Zipp on it. Again, this is coming from someone who thinks the HED wheels are the best looking OFF the bike. Obviously this is just one person's opinion but again I think it is all about the font Zipp uses to make their wheels LOOK faster than their competition.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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Personally I don't think the full stop helps

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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Well ... when the wheels are rotating at speed, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to say which logos look faster. ;-)

I sold a Zipp 808/Sub-9 wheelset and bought the HEDs just 'cuz I wasn't really into the tubular thing. Life's just too short for the hassles of doing it absolutely right for TT purposes. (Not to start a war with those of you [Tom Demerly] who can glue up a tubular in 15 seconds with one hand tied behind your back while you're hanging out of a moving team car, blah blah blah.) Anyway, I never understood the logic of having stickers on a wheel with dimples. I removed them. Fortunately, the stickers used by Zipp are quite easy to remove cleanly. Unfortunately, when I tried to remove one of the HED stickers, I could see I'd have a mess and would be into scraping and peeling and using a bunch of Goof-Off. That's the only reason the HED stickers are still on the wheels. Over the winter, they'll come off.

Stickers are completely useless to the rider. They only benefit the wheel manufacturer.

.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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It will be interesting to see what happens. HED is the first wheel to make a good effort towards Zipp. Other wheels are just either super light and deep or just another deep dish wheel. The 23wide wheels with the 23 tires is a great idea and I already know of some roadies who love the set up.
Though being a Zipp rider in the past and even with current wheels that are 21 wide...I just use the Zipp Tangente tires that are a 21c tire and they are GREAT!

Every day is Race day
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I have been searching for an answer that I think you can provide. What is the clearance like on the P3C and the Jet disk? I have read concerns that it might be tight.

http://www.speedtheory.ca
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [Shama] [ In reply to ]
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HED is the first wheel to make a good effort towards Zipp. Other wheels are just either super light and deep or just another deep dish wheel. The 23wide wheels with the 23 tires is a great idea and I already know of some roadies who love the set up.

Yesterday there was a thread with a race report on the SC Half Ironman. In that thread a few folks commented on how bad the road surfaces were for that race. It all depends on what you're used to, but some of it WAS rather rough. It was my fourth year doing that race and I've used a different wheel combination every year. Among them, I've used a Zipp 404 clincher with a Renn 575 disc, A Zipp 404 tubular with a Zipp tubular disc, and last year I used a Mavic Cosmic Carbone front with a Zipp 808/wheelcover on the rear. Conditions were similar every year. The time I did last year I figured was going to be a time I'd probably never be able to beat again (mostly 'cuz I'm not gettin' any younger). So this past weekend I rolled out on the HED Jet 90 C2 and a new Hed Jet Disc with ProRace3 700x23 tires and latex tubes. I took almost 3 minutes off of last year's time. I've already brought all this up in another thread and, of course, I've been challenged (rightly) about other variables that might have been in play. I also had a new 3T Funda fork. I've never raced on the Pro Race 3 tires before (though I used Pro Race 2s with latex tubes last year). I was on a 650 bike when I started out a few years ago. Lots of variables.

But I don't really attribute that much of the time gain to aerodynamics and I dare not make any claims about the new HED wheels in that regard. I attribute it (mostly) to the fact that, with the C2 wheels, I was able to run lower tire pressure and the harsh pavement didn't beat me up nearly so badly. In prior years, I've come off of the harshest section feeling like someone took a jackhammer to my ass and spine and my energy was sapped. When running that C2 on the front, the harsh chip and seal pavement felt like smooth asphalt. Smooth asphalt felt like glass. And indeed, steering was like it was on rails. The wheels have a very different, comfortable and confident feel to them.
.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [MrBeerMile] [ In reply to ]
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I have been searching for an answer that I think you can provide. What is the clearance like on the P3C and the Jet disk? I have read concerns that it might be tight.
www.speedtheory.ca

It's no issue with the standard Hed Jet disc. Plenty of clearance. And the wheel is not flexy like a Sub-9, so I've had no rubbing issues (though I'm small and never had them with my Sub-9, either). I ordered my HEDs direct from HED and asked them if the HED Jet C2 disc was going to work on my P3C. They said it WOULD NOT. They said most of the 2009 manufacturers were going to be widening their chainstays to accomodate wider rim/wheel technologies. Don't know if that's true or not. But for existing P3Cs, the C2 disc will be a no go. The standard disc is fine.

.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Can you snap a close up photo of the chain ring you have? That looks pretty sweet.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

But I don't really attribute that much of the time gain to aerodynamics and I dare not make any claims about the new HED wheels in that regard. I attribute it (mostly) to the fact that, with the C2 wheels, I was able to run lower tire pressure and the harsh pavement didn't beat me up nearly so badly. In prior years, I've come off of the harshest section feeling like someone took a jackhammer to my ass and spine and my energy was sapped. When running that C2 on the front, the harsh chip and seal pavement felt like smooth asphalt. Smooth asphalt felt like glass. And indeed, steering was like it was on rails. The wheels have a very different, comfortable and confident feel to them.
.

Bob...I know you love your wheels, and I'm not trying to "harsh your buzz" about your new wheel ;-)...but, what prevented you from lowering the pressure last year with the 23c P2Rs on the Mavic wheel? Perhaps you've just been running too high of pressure on that course all along?

My own testing shows that from a rolling resistance standpoint, it's FAR better to err on the side of low pressure, than slightly too high of pressure. For a given combo of tire/weight/road surface, rolling resistance tends to rise rapidly with just a small increase in pressure once you've hit the "minimum" Crr for those conditions...whereas, the increase in Crr from using slightly lower pressure doesn't rise anywhere near as rapidly.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

I was waiting for that "challenge" and I was confident it would come from you. ;-)

I live in an area where ALL the roads on which I train are pretty much like the ones I raced that day. I have a ton of experience and many tens of thousands of miles on crappy chip and seal roads. When I ride my Pro Race 2 tires on my training wheels at 100 psi or less on these roads, they do feel better and I don't get beat up so much, but the way they put the chip and seal down around here, they'll sometimes just put it right down over a pothole and, if it's in the shadow of a tree, you'll never see it at all. Then WHAM ... pinch flat. I'm just speculating here, but it seems the C2, because it spreads the tire out more, doesn't have quite the squishy feel to it. And speculating again, it seems to me that the wider rim spread would reduce the possibility of pinch-flatting.

Nothing scientific here, but to me, 100 psi on a 19mm rim feels a little under-inflated -- even on my harsh roads. The 100 psi on the 23mm rim feels very nice, but not at all squishy.

For the record, the folks at HED told me 90 psi would be more optimal. Don't really know why I was reluctant to go that low. Maybe I should give it a go.

Could I have had the same results on the clinchers I've ridden in the past had I only run them at 100 psi vs. 120 psi? Perhaps. But I honestly doubt that I'd have had the confidence to bomb some of the harsher sections of that course the way I did on my new wheels.

Am I sub-consciously rationalizing my purchase of these wheels? Perhaps. Perhaps not. ;-) Given that the 808/Sub-9 wheels I ran for most of this season cost about twice as much (and I wasn't having great results), I've got half as much rationalizing to do ... and a race result that really pleased me.

Bob
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad I didn't disappoint ;-)

I hear you though on certain combos of rims and tires having a more "stable" feel to them. I feel the same way about Open Corsa CXs on my front (typically 24+mm actual tire width an 19mm rim width) wheel...for some reason they feel more "squirrelly" to me than some other tires...

I guess one of these days I'll have to try one of those C2 rims...or maybe I'll just build up a wheel with a wide 29er rim ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [jmhtx] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the website:

http://www.fibre-lyte.co.uk/

Click on the little bicycle image on the left, then click on "chainrings."
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Did HED have anything to say about your pinch flat hypothesis? Seems like that might be a good selling point if there is any evidence to support it. Since you mentioned that bike builders were going to make wider chainstays are any of the other wheel manufactuers going with wider rims?
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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Did HED have anything to say about your pinch flat hypothesis? Seems like that might be a good selling point if there is any evidence to support it. Since you mentioned that bike builders were going to make wider chainstays are any of the other wheel manufactuers going with wider rims?

I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that up on my own ... so it probably did come from their end during one of several phone conversations I had with them before I finally whipped out my credit card. Can't say for sure, though. I may have read it on a thread here on ST or in a review of the Ardennes wheels on cyclingnews.com or somewhere.

Not aware of anyone else "going with" wider rims per se. (Of course, everything in the tubular wider seems to be going wider for '09, but that's a bit of a different story, I think.) If any of the brighter minds here on ST can independently validate the C2 concept (verify superior rolling resistance properties or a better airfoil/aero performance), I'd bet others would jump on this bandwagon quickly as I doubt the concept is protectable. I suppose wider rims have always existed, but probably mostly for applications like touring. Probably not much out there intended for low spoke count/aero applications.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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what bars are you running?
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Easton Attack TT with Profile pads.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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i like that bend and bar but a certain st individual has convinced me that i need an integrated stem to even have a remote chance at being fast. my lbs also saw the new felt bars at interbike and said they look pretty slick.
Last edited by: Carl Spackler: Sep 30, 08 17:35
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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but a certain st individual has convinced me that i need an integrated stem to even have a remote chance at being fast.

Can't imagine who that would be ... or why they'd think that. Wouldn't be the same guy who said S-bends were going to change the world and later said he hated S-bends (after a bunch of us suckers ran right out and bought them on his recommendation)? I'm not really bitter. That's where I was able to harvest the Profile armrests that make these Eastons workable for me. ;-)

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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he was just giving me a hard time for my ghetto setup, and actually, i was just joking. on extensions he suggested i do some field testing with postion, which i'm planning to do next week. the one benefit of ghetto is lots of adjustability in order to get the next ones right. 1 second made a difference too many times in tts this season so not gonna happen again in 09.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Does HED make wheels with dimples on them? If not, I would go with the dimpled Zipps.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious, I'm looking in on getting a set of C2s, but with all the talk about the width of the rim, I was wondering if anyone would know if it would fit a 2007 Felt B2. It looks like it would, but there's no place around here that sells it so I can check.
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Re: Zipp vs HED. [fatbastardtris] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is because they caught an early market nitch and now people buy their products because of their name and reputation. I used to play professional golf and Titleist dominated the ball count. Now pretty much every manufacturer makes a great ball, but for some reason people dont really switch from the titleist??
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