Rear depth is non-issue for side-winds. Go 808 back there. If you're worried about the front, get a 404 (aka 606 combo), as it's fine in crosswinds. Never ridden an 808 front, but doubt it's a problem.

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606 is probably the best all around wheelset. Having used both 404 and 808 front riding in 20+ mph crosswind, I ended up getting a 404 since it was significantly easier to handle. You best bet would be to try 808 wheelset on a windy day, and then make a decision.

Even a 404 will push you around on the front if you don't train with it. Too many people think the wheels are fragile so they spend inadequate time on them. They definitely take getting used to.

Your weight is a factor also. I'm 138 lbs but I'd run a 808 rear 404 front for most courses and a 1080/808 for TT's on a calm day.

The right answer is find a shop that demos them and test a pair. Some offer rent to buy (like my studio).

Full disclosure - my studio is a Zipp dealer.

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Cyclist turned multisport enthusiast. Human performance technologist and digital health expert in my day job.
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Went from 404's to 808's this year. Not really much of a difference in terms of handling really. If you are smaller it may make a difference.

so Ive been looking for data on the time savings using a disc in the rear and ether a 404 vs a 808 up front over say 40km? If you could maybe throw the 1080 up front to?

anyone have a link for that?

Edit: found 808 vs 1080 but still looking for 404 with disc

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Specialized Shiv Mafia?

I did the calculation for this a couple of months ago from the Zipp data. The difference between the 404/808 and 808/808 is 8 seconds. The only variable (as listed) is the front wheel, so the 404 front is 8 seconds slower than a 808 front.

Looking at the 808/Disc is 82 seconds, and the 404 is 8 seconds slower, so a 404/Disc is 74 seconds.

With that being said, I would look at it in terms of the time differences between different sets of wheels, not the actual value of time saved.

Also, is this the current aero edge flier? I thought they listed the 808/900 Disc at 88 seconds, not 82 for 2010....

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

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I use the 808/1080 and don't see much difference between them and my training wheels in terms of handling.

I am a female, 135 lbs, and currently riding 808s. I came from 404s (and Alps Hed3 before that). On windy days (20+), yes, I do get blown a bit. Not enough to traumatize me or make me blow off course into the side of a truck or anything...but it is substantially more noticeable.

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I'm running 808s front and back.. Yeah, at 128 lbs, I get pushed around a little in buffeting crosswinds, but so do heavier riders. I just prepare for it.

On another note, regarding your graph - Does the Sub-9 disc really improve performance that much?

Throw a cover on your rear 808 and you'll see basically the same benefit...plus, you won't get pushed around so much in the buffeting cross winds. Yeah, I know, it seems counterintuitive...but it's true.

All of you in this thread should run a cover on your rear wheel and the vast majority of any issues with front wheel depth you may have will most likely go away.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

See my response to Brushman above. Throw a cover on that rear 808 and reap the benefits of being faster AND more stable.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

thanks

I don't think this is the current graph. I pulled this off a thread from 2009. So your probly right.

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Specialized Shiv Mafia?

I must be some kind of retard but can you explain this chart? Are the numbers time/watts saved over 40k? If so, what is the baseline? What are they comparing to?
Thanks

Thanks thats a great chart you put up.

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Dan Kennison

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Yes, I've read the research on this (though, I don't remember exactly where).

Goes something like this, I think:

In addition to greater aerodynamic efficiencies, I believe the idea implies the non-steering & static rear disc wheel acts as a stabilizing component in reaction to crosswinds (think skeg for all you sea kayakers). Thus, when the disc wheel is weighted by the rider, any lateral pressures (crosswinds) only cause the tire and wheel to push into and adhere to the road surface even more. This added rear stability assists the rider in steering and keeping a straight line when crosswinds are encountered.

Correct?

The numbers are baselined against a top selling aluminum wheel (brand M model K). The measurements are for Fabian Cancellera on the P3C pedaling at 300W. Yaw is 10 degrees, 30mph.

If you are slower than Fabian, well, since you are slower than Fabian, the time you save will actually be more.

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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry

On another note, regarding your graph - Does the Sub-9 disc really improve performance that much?......
Throw a cover on your rear 808 and you'll see basically the same benefit.

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If not more benefit ;-)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yeah...but it's also my suspicion that the added surface area acts to tilt the bike away from the wind, while the steering torque from the deep front wheel tends to cause the bike to lean INTO the wind due to countersteering effects.

That's just my speculation though...all I know is that it works :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Possibly, but not necessarily. Drag is a function of, among other things, your velocity squared (as I'm sure all of you that are spending so much time/money into aero wheels, helmets, etc. know). It should be intuitive that a rider going 5 mph isn't going to see any benefits from improved aerodynamics. At 30 mph, it is a big factor.

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Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen

The link you have says 404/808 saves 21watts or 60+ seconds. Is this data stating that a savings of 21watts over a 40K TT only gives you a 60 second advantage. I am thinking 21watts is a 7% advantage for a 300watt rider in a TT. 7% would be a 4 minute advantage in a 1 hour TT for a 300W rider.

Am I missing something???
Please advise. . .

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Park City Condo Rentals
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Sure, drag becomes an increasingly larger factor the faster you go, and with a rider going 5mph there are far bigger concerns than drag, no question. But, I would guess that for the vast majority of the people on this board, we are talking a minimum of 15mph, and at that point, drag does matter. Also, at 15mph, the time saved from aero wheels will be more than the numbers on the "Aero Edge" Flyer in almost every case. And as you said, at 30mph drag is a big deal, and when you add the rotational velocity to the translational velocity, part of the wheel is going 30mph when you are going 15mph :)

The counter intuitive part is that slower riders can see an overall time benefit from aero equipment that is much greater than a faster rider. It is a smaller percentage of their overall time in a most cases, but it is still more time.

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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry

Grasshoppa, you can no snatch pebble from hand, neither can you subtract 7% from 1 hour.

Basically there's a lot of math involved, but CRR doesn't change, nor does gravity, nor do bearing/drive train losses.

Plus, going faster is harder, the whole drag squares as speed doubles thing.

Try this: go pedal at 200W. Then increase wattage to 214W. See if your speed goes from X to X(1.07). I bet it doesn't.

Or, you could just assume that Josh et al at Zipp didn't publish a flyer with faulty math.

Hope that helps?

I'm pretty sure the benchmark wheelset is a 32 spoke, 3 cross, box rim.

Howard,

The relationship between power and speed isn't linear. More like exponential. Doubling your power will not double your speed

And the rest of us are pretty sure that you're wrong.

Where does that leave us?

It's a Ksyrium.

808 + wheel cover and you are done!

Fred.

I'd start with logic and ask why a company would use a high dollar non-aero wheel as a benchmark instead of something that's likely the most common wheel available?

If that doesn't meet your criteria, how about an appeal to the source? I posed the question to Bennet at Zipp and got the answer directly from him, I guess that answers the question, doesn't it.

Apology accepted.