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Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus.
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Ironman is all about the run...so you need to be ready to whip off a marathon off the bike...right ?

Most standard marathon programs build up to the 22-23 mile run, so conventional wisdom would dictate that if you are to do an Ironman marathon, you better run that far in training. Perhaps this is wrong.

For a genetically gifted few, running 23 miles/3 hours is reasonably easy to recover from. They have years of run base and good bone geometry, footstrike and biomechanics. Most of us don't

Guys like Lessing and Larsen have proven that Ironman can be done and won on much shorter runs. Larsen had never done more than 18 miles before winning Ironman LP in a 2:5x run split.

For most age groupers, including myself what we are doing on the Ironman course after 2 hours of running is only loosely resembles what we call running in training. I can almost guarantee that 95% of folks are going faster in every long training run than in the second half of their Ironman marathon. The other 5% are the sub 3:30 runners. They are actually running.

The goal is to get off the bike at T2 reasonably fresh and ready to run a marathon. The large majority come into T2 shelled with no hope of actually running the whole thing. What they will do is tough it out through around 2 hours and then walk-shuffle-run the remainder.

Running more than 2 hours in Ironman training has a huge impact on recovery. Most of us leading busy lives only have so many 'recovery units' in our bodies. When we run more than 2 hours in training and then pile on all the swim and bike mileage (and perhaps weights) that go with doing an Ironman, all we end up doing is drag ourselves out from week to week, never fully recovering and digging an every increasing deep hole.

If you have only so many "training units + recovery units" they need to be optimized for the maximum gain.

The more I think about it, you gain more by biking more and running less. No amount of run fitness will help the 2:20 marathon stud if he gets to T2 shelled.

This year, I did not have the opportunity to run more than 2 hours once I qualified for ironman LP. With 5 weeks to go, I ran out of time to build up to the "long run". I had tons of biking in the spring and I tried to keep up the riding in my leadup. In the 3 months leading up to LP, I only did 3 runs of 2 hours. The rest were 21 K or 90 min at most. My max run week was 40 miles. The other weeks averaged around 30 miles. At LP, while I did not have a top run split, I went 3:44, a PB for me on the course. I walk a some total of 5 steps at one aid station....the rest of the time, I ran/shuffled

The more I think about it, the approach was great. I never once felt totally fried in training despite some big 20-27 hour weeks (mainly biking), and I was 'recovered' for each of my key workouts. Most importantly, it minimized risk of injury which increases the chance of getting to the start line "healthy".

So unless you are a sub 3:30 Ironman run stud, I bet you would actually feel better overall in your training and pull off a faster Ironman times by focusing on the bike and holding back on long runs.

Realistically, I don't think most of us are designed for running more than 2 hours any more than a few times a year. My recommendation would be to pile on run miles in the winter and lay a solid run base and leverage that into the summer during the tri season when you ramp your bike miles and reduce running. It has worked every time for me and a few others who I have mentored in their Ironman prep.
Last edited by: devashish paul: Aug 15, 05 19:27
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,



You do realize that you've got quite a bit more talent than the average age grouper, don't you?



That being said, I wholeheartdely agree with you, I would put that max on 2:30h. Mark Allen too, out of curiosity.

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense to me. I finished my first IM last year (Ultramax). During my training, I religously ran 2-2 1/2 hours every Wenesday night of the summer. As a result of the beating my body took, I biked less than I would have liked. At the race, I had a bad bike and was shuffling almost from the start of the run. As I have started to think about my prep for IM Wis. 06, I have decided to bike way more and cut way back on the long runs. I have decided to concentrate on running during the Winter when I can't bike outside (I live in Colo.) and do a December marathon (Vegas). Thanks for he confirmation.
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [shredder] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see how Dev's post confirms your findings... for the record I think you're turning into the wrong direction. Keep those long runs, you probably had a pacing problem on the bike at Ultramax.

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds a lot like the kind of common sense approach Gordo advocates.

Never done an IM, but FWIW, I'm sure you are right.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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Gordo, that genius of recycling ;-)

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Promise?????!!!!!?????
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Ass backwards thinking by cyclocentric triathletes.

Would anyone here cut back on their bike training to such a point that they'd have to get off and rest half way through the ride?

Why would you do this for the marathon?
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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You know more about this than me SAC...come on, recycled from whom?

Plus, I thought you were heading away from the SA side of things, and becoming a kinder, gentler, coach? Something like 'coach cuddles'?? ;;;.....


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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<< Gordo, that genius of recycling ;-)


that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while, and quite accurate.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see how Dev's post confirms your findings... for the record I think you're turning into the wrong direction. Keep those long runs, you probably had a pacing problem on the bike at Ultramax.

Maybe back off on the "weekly 2 to 2 1/2 hour" runs and do them every other week?
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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Ask Mike Plumb, he's been around for more time than me ;-)



Mark Allen didn't ran past 2:30h. I've heard Peter Reid won't either, except he might do 45min AM and 2:30h PM. Portuguese school of marathon running says, no runs past 2 hours. Just some examples.

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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 << and quite accurate.

Accurate if you mean genius of recycling common sense in plain english. But if it were all about common sense, JFT and KISS that would leave a lot of AG tri coaches* without a job so.....

* except those with charisma and the capacity to inspire. That, and not ideas & theories & gimmicks, is the core of effective coaching
Last edited by: johnthesavage: Aug 15, 05 17:04
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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well if i was mark allen, i probably wouldn't need more than a 2:30 run. But for those of us who run 4:00 IM marathon, 2 hours is on the low side IMO. But that doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong... I really doubt that I would of negative split my marathon at IMAZ if my longest run was 13 miles (2 hours) but again, my opinion.
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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SAC, this is not just based on myself, but guys who I have helped with Ironman training in the past.

To the person who makes the comment about cycling centric athletes, what you are missing is that it starts with 2.4 mile swim and then there is a 112 mile bike and then a marathoon. So first of all, you have to make sure that you have enough swimming under your belt to get to the bike fresh. Then you have to do enough biking to get to the first half of the run fresh. Then you have to do enough running to get to the second half of the run fresh. Then you have to do enough running to be able to run the second half fast.

Given that most people do enough swimming to get to T1 fresh, training task 1 is taken care. Training task 2 is do enough biking to get to T2 fresh. Most people neglect that (including myself in most years). Training task 3 is to get to 13-15 miles of the run setting yourself up with enough fumes to gut out the final half of the run. What I am advocating is doing tasks 1, 2, and 3. If you are in the 5% minority that is going to run sub 3:30, now you have to take care of the 4th task (doing the long runs, runs intervals and more or less pure marathon fitness). If you aren't going to take care of tasks 1,2, and 3, why jump to task 4. You end up with all this "unusable fitness" because you never get to the position where you can actually run the second half of the marathon. '

It would be like building the roof of your house on a shitty foundation that crumbles under the weight of the roof (essentially your body crumbling under the load of long run training).

Dev
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [Marisol] [ In reply to ]
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Just to clarify, I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that most of you actually run further in 2 hours than you will in Ironman racing...not the 13 miles that Marisol has stated, but more like 14-16 miles depending on fitness
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not IM coaching expert....but agree with your assessement.

However...I think we need to make sure folks don't confuse duration with frequency. You must run A LOT (often) for IM training.

If Mark Allen didn't run over 2:30...then why does his 18 week program show 180 minutes on week 14?
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [Smitty8] [ In reply to ]
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that's great but how do you feel about race course distances?

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Not much talk here about the reverse brick. It seems to me that keeping the long run to about 2 hours and then jumping on the bike for about an hour is a good idea. Runs over 2 hours tend to destroy my legs. Maybe you can fake "extend" that run a bit on the bike and save the legs. Its seems to work for me. Maybe its not doing anything, just biking tired. Mostly just wondering if anybody else does this.

-mike
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, you don't mention that you had the base coming form the Boston Marathon training this spring. I'm pretty sure this helped you a lot in LP.

As fo me: I've been running 3 IM marathons so far. Two at 3:37, with my long runs around 2 hours.
My last IM had a running time of 3:24, although on a fairly easy course. I increased the number of runs per week and had about 5 runs at about 3 hrs. You may argue that it was more the number of runs per week, but I feel that for me running around 2:30 to 3:00 made the difference. I also try to negative split my long training runs, which is the hardest to achieve.

Recovery is not so much of an issue for me as the risk of injury. Usually I'm able to do a 6 miler the next day, but stretching is very important for my limbs. :o)


Stefan
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [Marisol] [ In reply to ]
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Marisol, the irony of your statement is that if Mark Allen (a genetically mutant with near perfect run stride) only needs 2:30, then the rest of us running closer to 4 hours need more. The reality is that a runner like Mark Allen recovers much quicker from a 2:30 run than you or I. So when we run longer, we certainly dig ourselves a much bigger hole to climb out of. The long run is a high stakes poker game when it comes to Ironman training. You can easily get overtrained with this combination of long runs and big volume. While I can't knock your performance and Kona qualifier status, for the rest of us, being tired, fried and worn out is not conducive to being productive in the rest of our lives.

I guess you have to ask yourself if Ironman performance is paramount, or if you can get a 95% likelihood of the same performance on less stressful training and feel more energetic overall during the week in and week out routine.
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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well most of us probably don't get that many miles in 2 hours. If i have an 11:16 IM time, how many people are slower than me? That is my point. I have been doing long runs at IMpace. which is 9 min/mile for me. actually, these days, my last 2 runs were slower than IM pace. I find it beneficial to run 2:30-3:00 training for IM. For ME, that's how i get my running fitness. I am not trying to argue, I just think from a different perspective and believe that for some people, keeping it at 2 hours is probably a good idea (based on their history)
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think the key to recover from a long run is to run it at IMpace.. or slower :-) yes, if I run 8 min/mile or even marathon pace, i will not likely recover well from it. agree there. But I believe that my body needs to be trained to go long. same with riding. mentally, and physicalle.
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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LOL.

Thanks for the smile.....
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Re: Why running more than 2 hours for Age Grouper Ironman training is Bogus. [kus] [ In reply to ]
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Stefan, I did mention running lots in the winter to build a base, which I believed I leveraged. You, my friend are a different animal. Most of us would keel over at half the volume that your East German trained body can crank out :-).

This post was directed at the 95% of most Ironman fields who don't run faster than 3:30. If you want to run that fast (ie Stefan Kusurelis 3:24 in Arizona), you also need to train like a marathoner !
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