Quantcast
    MAIN INDEX RULES & LEGEND LOG IN  

Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All  


osteomark

Sep 13, 12 13:36

Post #1 of 64 (7497 views)
Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? Quote | Reply

Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks


MBannon

Sep 13, 12 13:59

Post #2 of 64 (7453 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In my opinion, you are already swimming as fast as TI is liable to get you to. Find other info.
----------------------
Tri Me.
Work Me.


Borden

Sep 13, 12 14:00

Post #3 of 64 (7446 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

As
A non-swimmer, TI got me down to a 2'/100m before my first 70.3. I rocked a 37' at GCT (ocean, wetsuit) and was pumped with it.

I've been tying to get rid of the glide ever since.
--------------------------------------------------------
Renaissance Man Tri 1st OA--lots of images and a race reportl
2013 IRONMAN Canada Race Report - 9:50 KQ
Accelerate3 * dimondbikes.com * TeamZoot


125mph

Sep 13, 12 14:03

Post #4 of 64 (7433 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks


I had a 42 min swim in my first oly (.9mi) in May. My last most recent oly was last week and I did 30 mins flat (.9mi). Try interval training in the pool. 10x200y with 60 second rests, as fast as you can. Do this for two months, I bet you will improve a lot. Leading up to the tri, do open water swimming once a week to get used to open water and sighting. Thats what I found worked for me. My goal next year is to get closer to 26min swim.


(This post was edited by 125mph on Sep 13, 12 14:03)


Kevin in MD

Sep 13, 12 14:08

Post #5 of 64 (7411 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What would total immersion technique be?

Keeping your head low when you breathe? looking down below you as you swim?


chrisodg

Sep 13, 12 14:10

Post #6 of 64 (7403 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [125mph] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

125mph wrote:
I had a 42 min swim in my first oly (.9mi) in May. My last most recent oly was last week and I did 30 mins flat (.9mi). Try interval training in the pool. 10x200y with 60 second rests, as fast as you can. Do this for two months, I bet you will improve a lot. Leading up to the tri, do open water swimming once a week to get used to open water and sighting. Thats what I found worked for me. My goal next year is to get closer to 26min swim.

Yes.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/...hletes/dp/1934030880

Hard work is going to get you where you want to be.

Join a masters group if you can... now. Chances are you're hanging on the edge of the pool after an hour just trying to breathe and keep up.

This happened to me, and i've gone from 2:00+/100m and just trying to 'finish' open water sprint races, to < 25min oly swims because i kept getting my ass handed to me 3 days a week.

best decision i made (masters)


Devlin

Sep 13, 12 14:18

Post #7 of 64 (7364 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks

TI teaches you to be able to complete the swim, not necessarily compete the swim.

What does your typical week and/or workouts look like in the pool? What's your swimming background?

John


Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |


3Aims

Sep 13, 12 14:24

Post #8 of 64 (7344 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'd go the masters route and get coached feedback on your stroke. Plus, even the native fish I swim with argue turnover, turnover, turnover to help better prepare you for OWS. Smooth, long gliding strokes as told by TI are great in a pool, but are not always practical during OWS events.


cmscat50

Sep 13, 12 14:25

Post #9 of 64 (7339 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I looked at TI lots and read his book while learning to swim last summer. I probably got as fast as about 1:30 / 100 for 1500 using that method.

I am not not much faster if any, but as fit either. I agree with almost everyone that TI won't get you to your potential. It's all about the catch and fitness after a certain point.


Dilbert

Sep 13, 12 14:32

Post #10 of 64 (7317 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

A TI topic!

Aoooga! Aooooga! Dive! Dive! Dive!


yakimarack

Sep 13, 12 14:37

Post #11 of 64 (7302 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i've never heard of 'total immersion'. If it means totally immersing yourself in water and swimming as long as you can while holding your breath, then coming up for air, then immersing again. It would be inefficient.


(This post was edited by cyclops on Sep 13, 12 14:37)


phoenixR34

Sep 13, 12 14:43

Post #12 of 64 (7284 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks

I was a consistent 30min swimmer for Olympic distance. I took one TI lesson to learn the drills, then worked on them for about two months exclusively.. no freestyle swimming at all. After that, I did a month of freestyle swimming. Managed to get down to a 24min Olympic swim shortly after. In that whole three months, I never did more than 3500yards per week, one interval session (10x100yd) every two weeks. Longest pool swim was 2000yds. I did an open water 2.4mi swim just to try it, and ended up with a 1:13. Only a handful of tough workouts.. the rest were low yardage, focused around form. A lot of people say TI doesn't work, but six minutes off my Olympic and a 1:13IM swim are good enough for me.
--------------------------------------
Also worth nothing, more competitive white people prefer triathlons because Kenyans can't afford $10,000 specialty bicycles.


LuvMyCrappyBike

Sep 13, 12 14:56

Post #13 of 64 (7247 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [phoenixR34] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 I agree with you. The drills are really, really helpful IMO (although damn I hate that 'shark fin' drill).

An efficient stroke will result in more speed.

http://aclockworkmango.com


808State

Sep 13, 12 16:39

Post #14 of 64 (7120 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [LuvMyCrappyBike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TI took me from no structure/form swimming to a 32 minute mile with a very comfortable pace. No need for the $500 class, the $20 video will suffice with a little bit of coaching from a friend/group/coach (If you have the money). I really believe the video helped strengthen my foundation and the coaching helped with my further progress. Good luck!
A true warrior leave no openings-Except in his mind.


lightheir

Sep 13, 12 16:47

Post #15 of 64 (7090 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've extensively read/used the Total Immersion books/concepts.

Honestly, the core concepts aren't any different than regular swimming in terms of maximizing hydrodynamics, building maximum efficiency in the water, and being as smooth as possible with careful attention to stroke form at all times during swimming.

The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast. Just 'swim easy' with 'focus on form' and you'll magically become FOP+, because you'll allegedly get all the fitness you need by swimming those nonmaximal effort yards with careful attention to form.

That's probably true for the dirt-slow swimmer (ex-me) until you get to about 1:50/100yds - anybody slower than that probably shouldn't be swimming hard because they're almost definitely swimming wrong in a major way. But once you're below that 1:50/100yd pace, you've got to have swim fitness, and if you never swim hard, you're never going to get much faster than that.

There's a reason why all competitive swimmers bust their tails in the pool. If it was just all swimming pretty, that's what they would be doing. But no, instead they're out doing gutbusting sets, 2x/day, every day.

Other than that whole 'swim easy' thing, I don't seem much difference in what TI preaches and regular swimming, with a possible exception of his emphasis on gliding, which is a good thing for raw beginners who invariably have overshortened strokes (but a bad thing for any nonbeginner who needs to minimize gliding while still maintaining a long stroke.)


jaretj

Sep 13, 12 17:05

Post #16 of 64 (7053 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well said

jaretj


carbon

Sep 13, 12 17:20

Post #17 of 64 (7016 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

lightheir wrote:
The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast.

Can you point out where it says this? I've heard this criticism of TI before and did not come across it in the book I read, nor the video I watched. I've seen it propagated on the internet but I've yet to come across a TI source that claims this.

I took a workshop at TI hq. Talked to my instructor, talked to two of the McLaughlin daughters who are TI instructors. The idea that they'd say "One never needs to swim hard to get fast" is laughable. Or that "swim easy" will get one to FOP is bullshit.

I'd like to see some evidence that TI says those things or else this persistent bit of mudslinging should be killed.


phoenixR34

Sep 13, 12 17:50

Post #18 of 64 (6945 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

lightheir wrote:
I

That's probably true for the dirt-slow swimmer (ex-me) until you get to about 1:50/100yds - anybody slower than that probably shouldn't be swimming hard because they're almost definitely swimming wrong in a major way. But once you're below that 1:50/100yd pace, you've got to have swim fitness, and if you never swim hard, you're never going to get much faster than that.

There's a reason why all competitive swimmers bust their tails in the pool. If it was just all swimming pretty, that's what they would be doing. But no, instead they're out doing gutbusting sets, 2x/day, every day.

Other than that whole 'swim easy' thing, I don't seem much difference in what TI preaches and regular swimming, with a possible exception of his emphasis on gliding, which is a good thing for raw beginners who invariably have overshortened strokes (but a bad thing for any nonbeginner who needs to minimize gliding while still maintaining a long stroke.)

I don't disagree with you at all. Thing is, when I started doing triathlon, I just jumped in the pool and figured it out.. as do quite a few people in triathlon. Not everyone comes from a background of swimming, or even has any experience doing lap/freestyle swimming. The TI stuff puts you in the ballpark and gives a solid foundation. And yeah, you certainly hit a point where you aren't going to get any faster without some really punishing sessions in the water.. but for me, the TI stuff by itself got me far enough. I don't feel the need to kill myself in the pool to cut an additional 2min off my Olympic swim.
--------------------------------------
Also worth nothing, more competitive white people prefer triathlons because Kenyans can't afford $10,000 specialty bicycles.


lightheir

Sep 13, 12 18:30

Post #19 of 64 (6887 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [carbon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

carbon wrote:
lightheir wrote:
The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast.


Can you point out where it says this? I've heard this criticism of TI before and did not come across it in the book I read, nor the video I watched. I've seen it propagated on the internet but I've yet to come across a TI source that claims this.

I took a workshop at TI hq. Talked to my instructor, talked to two of the McLaughlin daughters who are TI instructors. The idea that they'd say "One never needs to swim hard to get fast" is laughable. Or that "swim easy" will get one to FOP is bullshit.

I'd like to see some evidence that TI says those things or else this persistent bit of mudslinging should be killed.


I haven't seen the most recent edition of TI; they may have changed this, but the edition I read was just 3 years ago so not that old.

In that edition, it clearly says to NOT do hard sets. It clearly, explicitly says that by focusing on form, you will naturally build the strength and speed needed to swim fast. Not once does it mention intervals or overdistance sets, but repeatedly brings up the 'swim smooth and easy' concept. At least in the older edition, it was very obvious - and probably a good thing for me, as I bought into the kool-aid, and dived into the pool as a raw beginner most enthusiastically expecting some big gains on easy swimming.Had I known how hard it would be to get faster, I never would have started triathlon in the first place! This is not mudslinging in the least - that's exactly the thing I remember as most unique about TI - not the techique drills, not the smoothness, which are all exactly what every good swim coach recommends. It was that swim easy focusing on form but get fast concept. Not overstating this in the slightest at least with the edition I read.

There were two concepts in my edition of the book that struck me as flawed (I'm a lousy swimmer so don't trust me,go see for yourself) but I agreed completely with everything else in the book and it's still my #1 referred to book when I talk to total newbs asking me how to get into tri.

1) The whole 'swim easy' thing - as discussed above. Didn't work for me at all - actually for me, didn't even work at 2:05/100yd pace - I had to swim significantly harder (but not gutbusters) to start improving from even that pace. And yes, I took a few swim lessons which verified that I wasn't horrendously ugly in the water. Just didn't have the arm endurance - my max turnover rate then was nearly half as slow as it is now and I'm only at like 1:32/100yds for T-pace.

2) My edition of TI really emphasized swimming on your side, and had an entire popout box explaining that for heavier lean males like me, you had to find your 'sweet spot', which it clearly said could be nearly completely on your back (!!). Yes, that's exactly what it said, and that's exactly what I followed - so my breathing rotatin ended up with most of my face completely out of the water, to the point that people in the pool were asking my what stroke I was using since it didn't look like a freestyle stroke anymore. After nearly 6 months of swimming like this, took me 6 weeks of dedicated drillwork after a coach told me to cut it out, to eliminate that over-rotation, which hugely increased my speed - like a 20sec/100 legit gain with no fitness increase. That corkscrew effect really killed me. I don't know if the current book still talks about that 'sweet spot' being nearly on your back, but that was some of the worst advice I've ever gotten in swimming, anywhere.


(This post was edited by lightheir on Sep 13, 12 18:31)


lightheir

Sep 13, 12 18:40

Post #20 of 64 (6859 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My last comment in Terry's defense -

TI is NOT written for the competitive swimmer or triathlete. It is definitely targeted at recreational adult onset swimmers, most of whom will never ever race in their entire lives.

If you consider that as the level of competition of swimming, he is absolutely right - you can definitely just 'swim easy' and be amongst the fastest YMCA or recreational swimmers at your local pool. A 1:50/100 is on the fast side of the fast lane in the 4 YMCAs in my area unless a competitive swimmer ringer shows up. The average speed for the fast lane at lunch is about 1:55-2:00/100yds at least around here for all 4 YMCAs I go to (which is quite frustrating.)


tridogs

Sep 13, 12 19:07

Post #21 of 64 (6807 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I started triathlon 12 years ago and hadn't swam competitively or for recreation prior to that. Was dead last out the water for my first tri. Struggled to swim 100 without fatigue.
I got the TI book and read it. No clinics or DVD.
Initially I did the core drills religiously. After a few years , I felt much more comfortable and better positioned in the water and can now consistently swim an IM sub 1:10. Never broke an hour but a bunch of 1:05 with moderate effort. I swim about 8000 yards a week and continue to do the core drills( side swim, press the buoy, superman etc.....) each week at least once.
TI drills got me comfortable in the water and has helped me with body position and roll. I admit, I also like the swim smooth website and have been playing around with their ideas the last two years.
All in all, a little guidance, dedication and consistency got me where I am today.
Hate the masters swim groups probably because it reminds me of two a days from high school football.
Good luck


Bill

Sep 13, 12 19:13

Post #22 of 64 (6785 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Lots of TI thread over the years.

This is probably one of the "best" and in particular, read and follow what Gerry Rodrigues has to say in the thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


carbon

Sep 14, 12 7:40

Post #23 of 64 (6584 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

lightheir wrote:
I haven't seen the most recent edition of TI; they may have changed this, but the edition I read was just 3 years ago so not that old.

In that edition, it clearly says to NOT do hard sets. It clearly, explicitly says that by focusing on form, you will naturally build the strength and speed needed to swim fast. Not once does it mention intervals or overdistance sets, but repeatedly brings up the 'swim smooth and easy' concept. At least in the older edition, it was very obvious - and probably a good thing for me, as I bought into the kool-aid, and dived into the pool as a raw beginner most enthusiastically expecting some big gains on easy swimming.Had I known how hard it would be to get faster, I never would have started triathlon in the first place! This is not mudslinging in the least - that's exactly the thing I remember as most unique about TI - not the techique drills, not the smoothness, which are all exactly what every good swim coach recommends. It was that swim easy focusing on form but get fast concept. Not overstating this in the slightest at least with the edition I read.

There were two concepts in my edition of the book that struck me as flawed (I'm a lousy swimmer so don't trust me,go see for yourself) but I agreed completely with everything else in the book and it's still my #1 referred to book when I talk to total newbs asking me how to get into tri.

1) The whole 'swim easy' thing - as discussed above. Didn't work for me at all - actually for me, didn't even work at 2:05/100yd pace - I had to swim significantly harder (but not gutbusters) to start improving from even that pace. And yes, I took a few swim lessons which verified that I wasn't horrendously ugly in the water. Just didn't have the arm endurance - my max turnover rate then was nearly half as slow as it is now and I'm only at like 1:32/100yds for T-pace.

2) My edition of TI really emphasized swimming on your side, and had an entire popout box explaining that for heavier lean males like me, you had to find your 'sweet spot', which it clearly said could be nearly completely on your back (!!). Yes, that's exactly what it said, and that's exactly what I followed - so my breathing rotatin ended up with most of my face completely out of the water, to the point that people in the pool were asking my what stroke I was using since it didn't look like a freestyle stroke anymore. After nearly 6 months of swimming like this, took me 6 weeks of dedicated drillwork after a coach told me to cut it out, to eliminate that over-rotation, which hugely increased my speed - like a 20sec/100 legit gain with no fitness increase. That corkscrew effect really killed me. I don't know if the current book still talks about that 'sweet spot' being nearly on your back, but that was some of the worst advice I've ever gotten in swimming, anywhere.

Yeah I'll agree it doesn't bring up interval or sets. I think the point they were emphasizing about swimming easy may have been aimed at beginners. If one is at a typical pool, there are people working really hard (splashing everywhere) and not really moving. For those people, swimming easy and working on technique will probably do more for them then increasing intensity. Once you get to a certain level of efficiency, than yeah, working harder is going to necessary. I can't see how TI could argue against this. Perhaps TI needs to better explain the points they're trying to make.

#2) Agree with you on this. I had the same problem from the Easy Freestyle DVD. Did end up overrotating and it was a problem that I needed to fix. When I was at the TI workshop one of the daughters mentioned they took this part out in the subsequent DVD as they were aware of this problem.


Goosedog

Sep 14, 12 7:43

Post #24 of 64 (6581 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [cyclops] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cyclops wrote:
i've never heard of 'total immersion'. If it means totally immersing yourself in water and swimming as long as you can while holding your breath, then coming up for air, then immersing again. It would be inefficient.


Yeah, it's underwater dolphin kicks. Tough for longer distance races.


(This post was edited by Goosedog on Sep 14, 12 7:43)


lightheir

Sep 14, 12 8:39

Post #25 of 64 (6510 views)
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [carbon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Agree with your comments. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got nailed on that over-rotation - it was truly a horrible thing for me to fix. Literally like re-learning to swim all over again.

And also agree with your comment about the audience for TI. It really isn't aimed at competitive triathletes or swimmers, no matter how much the advocates and fans of the book say it's "for everybody." It really is aimed at the recreational "YMCA" swimmer, and as my prior post above, anything faster than 2:00/100yds is fast for the typical YMCA swimmer. At 1:50/100yds, you're dominating the fast lane at lunch, and at sub 1:40/100yds, you're so fast that you're lapping everyone in the fast lane for the typical recreational nonracing swimmers there. For those folks, swimming hard is definitely not as important as cleaning up their form, since the average pace of these swimmers is like 2:20-2:40+/100. I swim at 6 different Ys in the Norcal Bay Area at lunch due to work being at 6 different locations, so I feel that I have a pretty good sense of a typical YMCA recreational swimmer.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All  
 
 
 



America's ITU Prowess
Should ITU efforts in the U.S. be considered a success because of its winning women, or a failure because of its lack of consistent performances by its men?
Success
Failure
Both
More complicated
I don't care