What works for you is all that maters, right? Maybe your build is unusual around the shoulders, makes the sleeved fit you bad.

ive swam in a sleeveless helix, and for this season i was lucky to receive the freak of nature to test... being from a swimming background i was always of belief that the sleeves would restrict my shoulders and not allow as strong of a pull. saying shortly i was dead wrong. swimming in the FoN my shoulders are way less fatigued and i feel like i am expanding a lot less effort to go the same speed, if not faster in most cases, also in races with colder water (im from midwest) its a more comfortable swim as the water was pretty cold throughout most of this season. but thats just my two cents.

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I've swum in my de soto with sleeved top and sleeveless vest. Sleeved was faster by 1-2 seconds per hundred despite the vest feeling faster.....so I think sleeveless feel faster but sleeved are actually faster.

Not sure I buy the buoyancy thing. I just tested a Roka full vs. de soto full 2 piece. The de soto felt more buoyant as my feet felt like they were out of the water....but it was "feel"...I did not test the actual buoyancy of either suit though would be easy to do. Roka felt much better and times way faster. Granted the de soto is a decade old.....

Dave

Since you most likely get less than 2 Newtons of extra buoyancy from a full suit, I don't think that is significant.

The Drag reduction is probably the best argument for a full suit.

Wetsuits are much better now than they were just a few years ago. The arm restriction thing has gone away.

Gripper forearms have been shown to increase and decrease pulling ability. Which one you believe is a matter of opinion.

I'm a long time sleeveless wetsuit supporter. In my opinion you should either buy the best full sleeved suit you can find that fits or get a cheap sleeveless. This year I have finally found a full suit that works well with me.

jaretj

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. The added buoyancy of a wetsuit lifts you higher in the water, which decreases drag in at least two ways:

1) It decreases your frontal area in the water which reduces form drag (big effect)
2) It decreases your wetted surface area which reduces skin friction (smaller effect)
(plus maybe some other more complicated mechanisms to do with wave drag and interference drag...)

Even the energy spent pushing your arms vertically down into the water during the catch phase is not wasted because it pushes the rest of your body higher in the water.



I'm sure this has been studied. Anyone know of a study?

I think the super-suit era in swimming is telling. Covering skin with faster materials is definitely a quantifiable gain. According to this article, in Beijing, 89% of all swimming medals were won by swimmers wearing Speedo LZR Racer suits. Before crazy suits were banned, 38 meet records were broken at the 2009 World Aquatics Championships (dubbed the "plastic games")!

100 metre freestyle world record progression


Perhaps we can consider data from cycling and make some assumptions*. Recent testing of cyclists has shown that aero suits and shaving can carry very significant drag savings (on the order of a minute over 40 km). And remember that water is 1000 times denser than air!

*this is dangerous because aero/hydrodynamics are f*d up.



I definitely agree that there has to be some energy cost of covering the shoulders. In my experience, this is very sensitive to wetsuit fit. I've swam in the same suit in three different sizes. It's a high-end suit with top quality neoprene. Even so, shoulder flexibility was crappy until I found the right size.



Let's do a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Let's take a wetsuit with 3mm neoprene in the sleeves. Let's assume that a 20cm section of the forearm pulls water. 2 × 3mm × 20cm = 12cm² increase in surface area compared to a bare arm. If the area of that forearm segment is ~140 cm² (20cm × 7cm), that's a 9% increase in pulling surface area.

I think conventional forearm grip panels are probably just a gimmick. AFAIK, no one has measured a benefit. It's hard to find high-end suits without them these days, like my Nineteen Rogue.



We can reason ourselves in circles, but testing is the only definite answer for you. I would caution against comparing triathlon race times. Courses vary by 10%+ from the quoted distance and conditions and drafting are also factors. I would bring both suits to the pool on a couple different days and do repeat 100s on the clock. Search for posts my Monty and others to see their protocol.

Thanks for starting this discussion :)

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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You should read this thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=5207650;

Plus if you search you will find additional threads with data in it.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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I have one of each and I don't know if the full suit is significantly faster. I think most of the benefit for me is lifting my sinking legs and ass, don't need sleeves for that. The full suit is warmer, though. I have never felt that a full suit was restrictive, even my 13 year old base level QR feels good to swim in.

Cody
Thanks for your insight.. Always love your scientific approach to analyzing things!!

About the buoyancy, I'm talking about the additional buoyancy the "sleeves" give you... I personally don't think it's much and if there is buoyancy, it's gotta affect your body position negatively... Think about entering the water, you've got a buoyant arm pushing down on the water and if your core is the "pivot" point, your legs will sink to counter the push... Not the other way around. The easier your arms sink the less it affects the rest of the body so assuming there is some buoyancy effect to "sleeves" this would affect your body position.

As for sizing... Are you saying you're finally in a wetsuit where you find your shoulders don't have to work more than you do in a pool or without a suit? Or is there still some additional resistance with the wetsuit? I wouldn't be surprised if all this came down to being improperly fit. I was fitted by someone who knows their stuff and trust their suggestion (this is above and beyond the sizing chart on the manufacturer's website) so that's why I ruled out a sizing issue.

Testing...
I'd love to have the opportunity to do this... Not fortunate enough to bring a bunch of different (properly sized!) wetsuits to the pool and do back to back testing (unless the big guys want to fork some up for testing!!). One thing I know for sure is my 100m times at a hard pace are extremely consistent so I would be able to gauge the effort differences based on the suits.

Actually the pivot point would be nearer your ankles and not your core. Your scenario would only work if the buoyancy remained constant, in this case buoyancy is increased. I've already calculated less than 2 Newtons for the sleeve in another thread.

Mixed opinions out there and most say full sleeve is faster but still don't see convincing facts or a logical approach to why full sleeve is faster than sleeveless.

I don't know where you are finding "mixed opinion". With all due respect, if you talk to anyone in the wetsuit business, or even the founder and guru of triathlon wetsuits, Dan Empfield aka Slowman and the Publisher, of this site, the opinion is almost unanimous - a full suit is always faster!

The mixing comes from the masses, many of whom, don't even know how a wetsuit should fit, and who are perhaps swimming in the wrong wetsuit. They may have had a bad experience with a wrong brand, ill-fitting, full sleeve wetsuit FOR THEM, and written off full sleeve suits forever.

Here's the ultimate test - look at the ITU wetsuit legal races. In these races EVERY SECOND on these swims counts - all you see is full sleeve suits!! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I like your emotion Steve!! I trust your opinion coming from the industry and also being a triathlete... The more I read the more it sounds like I simply had the wrong size... Which really sucks because I got a great deal on a 2013 Blueseventy Helix and had to sell it at a loss due to my issues.

That being said, do you recommend a brand or better yet a dealer that has some experience fitting for wetsuits?

Where do you live? Where do you shop?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

A properly fitting wetsuit can (and will) still burn out your shoulders. The blueseventy helix (my wife's suit) is one of the best for shoulder room. There are a few things you can do to help, firstly, make sure the thing is pulled all the way up, by all the way up your nards will almost be showing. Secondly, make sure your sleeves are above your wrist so there is as much material around the shoulder as you can get. Thirdly, when you are in the water, pull down on your neck line a little but and let some water into your suit. Not a ton of water so that it pools in your stomach, but enough that it gets into your shoulder socket. It sort of lubricates the motion a little bit. A poorly fitting suit that is too big will sag and that bit about getting it high enough will be tough to accomplish, the result is a swim that feels like you attached rubber bands from your feet to your hands. A well fitted suit on a person with larger shoulders (me) has to take a lot of care at the top of the suit to make sure the shoulders can move as freely as possible.

Great analysis. I also think it should just come down to fit. The only time a sleeveless should really be faster is if it's a proper fit and the full-sleeve option isn't.

Barrie.

Thanks. I agree with jaretj. I don't think that the extra buoyancy in your sleeves would force your legs lower in the water by an appreciable amount. Probably a small negative effect greatly outweighed by the other benefits of sleeves. 2N of force is nothing.


No, my sleeved wetsuit definitely adds resistance to shoulder rotation compared to sleeveless or no wetsuit, even though the fit is excellent. That's a given, but I find that a good fit and "installation" and, to a lesser extent, high end neoprene make the resistance almost negligible. I do very little swimming in my wetsuit, just a few times per month. Even so, I've never noticed extra fatigue in my shoulders, although I only race 70.3 and shorter.

I'm not sure that a wetsuit can be fit like a bike, where there are clear parameters you can measure. Someone knowledgeable could advise you, but it's still going to be a trial and error process. I have gone through four suits in 8 years. Each time I though the fit was decent... until I found one that fit better.


I was just suggesting that you test the sleeved and sleeveless suits you already have. Pool swimming in a wetsuit is a blast—you'll feel like Superman. Just keep the sets short if your pool is over 80F or you will roast!

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I will second Steve's words exactly.

A full sleeved suit properly sized, will be faster for almost everybody.

The ITU analogy that Steve uses is the easiest to quantify. Every athlete there is in a full sleeve suit. I've heard pro's mention that they want to swim in a sleeveless suit to mitigate the heat, but they can't sacrifice the time they'll lose in the water.

There is plenty of wetsuit tech out there now, combined with new rubber and liners, that allow you to have virtually unrestricted movement with a full sleeve suit. There are a handful of suits using 1mm 39 or better in the sleeves (Aqua Sphere Phantom, Helix, etc).

Not every suit will fit everybody, and I feel that is a big part of the issue some people experience. As much as I'd like to say our suits will be the best fit for absolutely everybody, it just isn't true. Just because one suit fits one person, doesn't mean it will be the best fit for everybody. You have to try it on...

Try on a few suits, from different brands, in different sizes, if you can.

Testing in my eyes, is far too personal to have published findings be the end all be all. Swim ability, fatigue, water conditions, fit of the suit, currents, etc, make too many variables to say that one suit is definitively faster than another. If there was to be an accurate test, I would think you'd have to take out the human and mother nature elements. Something like a wind tunnel, but in the water.

I'm not saying that I don't love to see our suits being touted as the best, (and there are plenty of outstanding performances in our suits) but rather, I'd like to see people find a suit that is going to help them swim, instead of just making things harder.

I feel confident saying that a full sleeve suit is going to be the right option. Find the right fit, and train in the suit. The more you swim in a suit, the better you will become accustomed to swimming in it.

jake

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Get outside!

Steve, I completely agree with your conclusion, but looking to pros for tech guidance is generally not a sound strategy. There are countless examples of pros making poor equipment choices with respect to performance, even when the gains are more than marginal. Sponsor obligations, tradition/conservatism and ignorance all play a role. Why aren't ITU guys all using aero road bikes, deep rims and aero helmets? If sleeveless wetsuits sold for more money than sleeved for some reason, we might see them on pros more often.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second.

Generally, sponsorship obligations include winning, and performing at a very high level. Given that, I can understand that some companies might want their athletes in certain suits, or on certain bikes. But the athletes are going to use what works for them, to improve their chances of going faster. Sacrificing speed in the swim is not one, that many professionals I know, are willing to chance. A full sleeve suit is faster.

Further, for an athlete that travels a lot, they need to be able to break down their gear, pack it and have it arrive in one piece at the next destination. Stuff that doesn't break easily may be a better option. Or perhaps something did break and they are using a backup that they could find last minute.

While pro's may use gear that is not seen as the fastest available in some cases, who is to say that all pro's have these products available to them for free? I can pretty much guarantee you that not every ITU, WTC, REV 3, USAT, whatever pro, is getting all of their equipment for free. They are using what puts them in the best position to win. If it doesn't come for free, that adds to the challenge.

Just my $.02.

jake

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Get outside!

All good points. I listed sponsor obligations/incentives, tradition/conservatism and ignorance as reasons why pros don't always choose the fastest equipment. You added convenience, durability/reliability and cost as additional factors.

In the case of wetsuits, we're all agreeing that the gains of sleeved over sleeveless are significant and well-known among pros. The other factors don't really come into play. I can't imagine that a company would incentivize wearing a sleeveless suit. For pros without a wetsuit sponsor, the extra cost of a sleeved suit is negligible. So in this case, pros have no conflicting interests, therefore they choose the fastest option: sleeved wetsuits.

For other equipment, all those other factors enter into the equation and may lead a pro to choose something other than what is, in theory, the fastest equipment. Some examples:

• Sponsorship: Many pros settle for a sponsored second-tier bike over paying for a top superbike. They decide that the known gain from the sponsor arrangement outweighs the potential negative affect on race results.
• Tradition/conservatism: The fact that some pros still insist on tubulars!
• Ignorance: I recently heard two successful pros agree that latex tubes were too "risky". Facepalm!
• Convenience and durability/reliability: Traveling with an aero road helmet instead of full tailed helmet.
• Cost: I don't have a bike sponsor and I ride a P2. I cry a little when I get outsplit by small margins by pros on superbikes, but for now, the gains are too marginal to justify the cost.

Getting OT, but it's an interesting subject.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Just a comment on buoyancy. The amount of water one displaces (in pounds of water) is equal to one's weight. If you are wearing a wetsuit, you are adding the weight of the wetsuit, so you are going to displace that much more water. So the buoyancy of the wetsuit does not decrease the water displaced. So it seems to me the improvement in times from buoyancy can come from two sources -- (1) vessel shaping (as Cody says, reducing frontal area, but I think that is mostly done by getting the legs up) and (2) maybe getting your recovery arm further out of the water (so for people who do not rotate much, eliminating some "counter stroke" where part of the upper arm is pushing water forward during recovery). It doesn't seem that wet suit arm buoyancy would add add much to vessel shaping, but it could help with point (2).

hugoagogo wrote:

Just a comment on buoyancy. The amount of water one displaces (in pounds of water) is equal to one's weight. If you are wearing a wetsuit, you are adding the weight of the wetsuit, so you are going to displace that much more water. So the buoyancy of the wetsuit does not decrease the water displaced. So it seems to me the improvement in times from buoyancy can come from two sources -- (1) vessel shaping (as Cody says, reducing frontal area, but I think that is mostly done by getting the legs up) and (2) maybe getting your recovery arm further out of the water (so for people who do not rotate much, eliminating some "counter stroke" where part of the upper arm is pushing water forward during recovery). It doesn't seem that wet suit arm buoyancy would add add much to vessel shaping, but it could help with point (2).

Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't thinking of Archimedes' Principle when I first posted. Tapering makes me dumber :)

I think my statement that the buoyant effect of a wetsuit reduces the wetted area is not necessarily true (but wetsuits still reduce skin friction). I agree that the most obvious way the extra buoyancy would reduce frontal area is by raising the legs. I guess that's why weaker swimmers, most of whom have body position issues, benefit more from wetsuits. This makes me wonder if there may be some validity to designs that use thinner neoprene in the torso than in the legs... I had just assumed that more buoyancy was better, period.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Disclaimer...I'm swimming in a full suit now but...

To be fair, the wetsuit cutoff temp for ITU pro's is 68°F so overheating is not an issue.

jaretj