Good news for US, some other countries are struggling as well (see Russia).

Nice to see Kemper still being a gamer. Doesn't race for 2 years and is our top guy.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Kevin Mcdowell, who just had a great interview here on slowtwitch, ran 15:11 in his WTS debut in London. 27th overall in the race and 21 years of age coming back from cancer. Great results as a junior too.

Verzbicas has the talent too if he's ever able to fully recover. His issue though on the other hand is in the swim.

Best thing we can do for LV is just let him train, have some fun and learn at the lower levels of ITU. Putting him in WTS events at this point in his career just isn't a good idea with his swim ability. And putting him in an WTS race and finishing 49th, doesn't really do much for him or his development (no need to fund an athlete to have that type of results). Let the kid get in positions to improve his swim and see improvement, not get beat down so much that it's a waste of everyones time/resources.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Agreed. He's got time on his side.

Agreed. The articles/ interviews I've come across make it sound like he has a good team and his head's in the right place. Just gotta put in that work.

I wonder how hard he and the other former Multisport Madness guys (Kanute, MacDowell...anyone else?) are pushing to get starts at Chicago. Racing at your hometown seems like it would be pretty attractive. I wonder how many guys we start there. It seems like the home country always gets extra slots.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Currently US Men on Chicago (could still change)

Billington
Kanute
Maloy
Pedersen
Vanort
Shoemaker


And yes the 3 big guns are on the list so far (gomez, brownlee bros).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I do not understand why LV or any other Americans should not compete against the best. That is the only way to get a feeling for the level and to become comfortable with these kind of competitions. Sending athletes to WTS and/or the French Grand Prix series is the right thing to do.

If you do not race against the best, how can you know the level? Also, getting experience takes time. A 49th place is totally ok. A lot better than a top five in a lower level race.

There is ZERO point to going to an WTS event when you come out of the water the last 10 athletes. All you are doing at that point is simply riding to the finish and hoping to not get lapped out. But you aren't "racing" and what are you learning from that? To swim faster? Umm, we can tell where athletes will be just based on their training, and don't need to waste $7k on a trip around the world just to get your butt handed to you. There is zero point to ITU racing if you cant swim first and foremost.


Now if you are an middle of the pack swimmer, then fine. Great, but if your consistently not anywhere close to the main chase pack (lets call that the 2nd pack swim), there is really zero point for you to be racing, there.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I have to agree that on the surface from out here in the cheap seats, LV needs to work his way up the river before he jumps into the big old ocean. Looking at his brief running career, it looks to be the same dynamic. He was top of the world in high school and then thrust into a huge program where be was MOP fodder. Not sure why he bagged it so early, but could be he hates to be just one of the guys riding the bench. He has the tools to be great, but many like him have failed for varying reasons.

I believe he is our only shot at the moment, no one is showing any promise to battle those top 5 to 10 guys. Talk all you want about this and that ones run, but just like Shoemaker before them, you got to do it getting off the bike with the lead group. No one has shown that yet, and really no one is showing that they can run with the leaders after riding much slower. LV has that potential and he is not a bad swimmer. He has plenty of pool speed, but needs a lot more OW experience in the scrum. I believe that is what he really lacks, that and maybe a second or two per 100 and he will be right there in the top 15 or 20 out of the water. And even if he does not make that split, he can get firmly in the 2nd pack, which often times will merge with the lead one, then we will see if his run will match up. Not a great strategy, but if that is the best we can hope for, it could work, especially with a domestic or two dedicated to bridging that gap. Maybe we could get some young US hottie to marry that kid from NZ…(-;

I don't even think LV is showing any signs of contending with the top 10. He cant even make the main chase pack in WTS races, and that's really what he needs to do, to ever have a chance at top 20. You mention gaining 1-2s/100, but that's a pretty big gain for guys at that level. IF, IF he can do that, then yes he will have the swim ability to swim up in to the Mola/Murray/Davidson main chase group. I certainly don't ever see him being able to make the front swim group, but in ITU, many times that really isn't needed. Just make the main chase group, get that group to work the uber bikers to bring back the 10 or so front pack guys, and it's game on into T2.

But like I said, he's not at that level yet, he hasn't shown it in any WTS race he's ever done (pre or post injury), and for him to gain the most experience, I think he needs to cut his teeth in events where he's in the scrums, he's "racing"/drafting/pushing to make breaks etc. He was toast by the time he got on the bike at Cape Town. I think we learned a valuable lesson, that LV really isn't ready for that level, just yet. And that's OK, that's the thing. It's ok to understand/recognize that.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Racing WTS and the French Grand Prix are 2 completely different levels of racing (in terms of athlete funding). 1 is a more privately paid for organization (where teams pay for these athletes to race). WTS is mostly an national funded trip for those guys (some have to pay their own way). If an team in France wants to pay LV to be on their team and race as much as possible, that's a kick ass way to do it. One of my lower level ITU athletes did that 2 years ago in Germany. But racing on WTS level, when the federation is footing the bill, you better be able to justify it. Just gaining "experience" when finishing in last 10 and only riding in a group of 4 on the bike, to me doesn't justify the expense. That isn't to say they need to pull the funding for said athlete, they just need to refocus on how they are going to spend it. I see zero gains when an athlete races WTS level, comes out so far back of the swim that his bike and run are then compromised (you don't even get points for that low a finish). Using that type of "experience" as a reason to sending an athlete into that type of race is BS at the highest levels of competiton (and this is what we want right, this is a cut throat business, at some point it really is about the results).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

But I'll say this about ITU. You have the greatest swim of your life, get in with 30 other guys, have an non-motivated front group, and suddenly your in the top 45 all together going into T2 and with his run speed, he's going to finish well. Or you are on a course where your having to do all the work with maybe a few guys and your chasing 2 large groups that all have 20 guys in them. You'll never make time that way. But I don't think LV has shown the consistency yet in the water to put him in WTS events. But then again, if LV raced in Yokohoma, suddenly he finishes top 30 because of how unaggressive the bike was? Maybe, maybe not, but he's not really shown he can swim, *yet*.

Looking at Dallas, he made the larger 2nd pack (that included Maloy, who is usually stronger swimmer), so he basically had about the 30th best swim, on probably truly a World Cup level event.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

My point was that getting experience on a high level is important. If you want to be good you have to seek out better athletes and race against them.
Look at the American cross country ski team, they stay in Europe from November to mid March to race the best one. That is commitment. You can not get that kind of racing in the USA, not even the next level or two level under.

For triathlon it looks like many athletes could benefit from racing in Europe during summertime. Especially the American men, the women are already world class.

Or they can race at home and not get a feel for the speed at an international level.

My point is, what experience can be gained by coming in 10 from last on the swim, riding with 3 others 4 mins slower than the lead group, and running to a 50th place finish? What does that do for his ITU development? There is nothing he really gains that can be applicable to him. He doenst get any swim pack experience, sure he gets to see how fast they start the swim, but if he's off the back by 250m into the race, what point is there to "experience".

FYI, many Americans already go and train in Europe in the summer (lots race the GP series already). So like I said, racing GP series and WTS are 2 completely different subjects. I agree putting him on a French team to race DL a ton over the summer can be very good. But putting him in WTS events where he doenst really gain anything in terms of experiencing what he needs to get.

Your putting GP and WTS in the same boat, and I think they are worlds apart because of the structure they are put together. ETA: He would do better racing GP series because of the race distances and also the frequency. But that doesn't mean he needs to race WTS as well.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"Experience" in ITU is way overrated in this case. Because an athlete of LV's swim caliber, isn't gaining "experience" in the sense of what you are trying to accomplish within the dynamics of what top level ITU racing is about. The only thing he truly gains from his performances is understanding the swim start and how aggressive that is, that's it. He gains nothing on the bike because he's too far back and he really only then gains WTS "starts".

Which is why I think he'd be way more suited to be in races where he's able to swim within an 20 man pack for an entire 1500m and then get the feel for a rotating pace line pack and what it takes to ride at the level he needs to, to get back to the front of the race. I'm guessing he can definitely experience that with GP racing in Europe, but not the case in WTS races. In lower level ITU events, yes for sure. And that's what he needs more than anything. Just learning to "race" and he doesn't really get that with WTS level, because he's too far back to experience true ITU racing.



This reminds me of the 2012 us Olympic trials when one of the elite females was like a 26 min 1500m swimmer. Because the field was so weak at the 2012 San Diego ITU stop, and they couldn't fill it, they asked USAT to fill the missing slots. This particular girl was stoked to race, but she had no business being there (She was pulled just after 1 lap on the bike, but she did have PR swim).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I understand that LV gets a lot of attention her in the US due to his running background. I did not mention him exclusivly in my first post. I wrote: I do not understand why LV or any other Americans should not compete against the best.

Racing experience is more than just the time the race clock is ticking. It is also the whole being part of the event, getting used to and not get intimidated by the best in the world, become friends with other athletes and maybe start to train together. I think they should get a base in Europe during the summer and race as much as possible. Maybe team up with other nations and split the costs.

I think getting international experience is important. It is good to be a small fish in a big pound. It is good to meet and train with good athletes from other nations. Find out what they are doing, or maybe found out that they are not doing anything different. Also, competing abroad is fun. I did it a lot growing up.

Right and a lot of the US athletes do actually do that. But we never hear about it because GP gets zero exposure in media and/or within US demographics. It's really WTS or bust for media exposure, *most of the time (unless an American wins an World Cup, etc). So yes I agree with the idea of gaining international racing experience. I just think for a kid like LV, he doenst need to be at WTS races, *right now*. High fiving the other pros before and after races only will get you so far, at some point, yes the clock does matter. And right now he would be better suited at lower levels of ITU competition.

The issue for a lot of the American top athletes (especially our runners) is that they simply cant swim at the WTS level. So any "experience" they get is kinda lost because they are just so far back, that they gain nothing other than rubbing shoulders with the best. So, that really doesn't help an athlete until they can actually use their abilities to race and score bigger results.

The one athlete I'm curious about what's up with his training is Billington. I keep seeing his name bounced off WTS start lists, so I'm not sure if they are using it to hold spots or what. If shoemaker can get some consistency, I think we have a damn good shot of getting 3 team spots.

ETA: There are probably 15 US athletes on avg. that go to Europe for atleast 6 weeks during the summer. Some that you would never have heard from, even on the US domestique side of racing, but there are athletes that are going to Europe that race on GP teams. There also usually is an USAT funded euro trip with 5-6 athletes each year as well (lasting usually 6 weeks).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I think we mostly agree :-)

The biggest problem Olympic sports have here in the USA is the Olympics. The sports get some love every 4th year and that's it. The founding is also concentrated around the Olympics. That is sad for the sports and us fans.

Well the funding is concentrated on winners as it should be. That's the ultimate in high performance. You don't win, you don't get money. And that's been triathlons problem in the US. We don't win medals, so we don't get more funding. Is it sad, sure? But it should motivate the hell out of us coaches and athletes to want to push to get them there. I just in LV's instance don't think putting him in WTS races at this points, puts him closer to breaking through. That's my only point of difference.

One of my junior parents was amazed at how well Canada does is in triathlon atleast on the PATCO level (thinking, hey they are a country that you wouldn't think triathlon is big in), but I told her, that's what happens when you have world champions and Olympic medal winners. Country pumps money into the program, better development programs are established.


Our women really are on another level at this point, we are almost starting to rival GB and Australia, we probably just lack 1-2 more girls. Our men, frankly I just don't think they are there, yet. I think the biggest issue is that for us to have success in WTS, we need everything to go in our favor. Whereas you look at some of the other countries, and they are so sound speedwise that they can do well whether a break occurs or not. That's what we are lacking, just that front 1-2 athletes that can hang with the front group. Right now, I don't see anyone that can do that for 2016.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Great point on Billington. People forget he was very close to being the second man on our London '12 team - only 19 seconds slower than Manny Huerta in San Diego. On that course he was only 1:00 off Johnny B and :45 off Murray and Mola.

I guess in fairness Shoemaker was only :13 behind Billington that day, but I just don't think we've seen much to indicate that he can be a consistent top-10 guy anymore. Seems like a great guy, very committed to ITU/ USAT, love what he's done with the Clermont race and I hope he proves me wrong.

Brooks, you mention us having some runners with weak swims. Obviously Lukas could get back to that point. Webb has a pedigree to suggest he could be a top runner. Who else might be on there? I know results don't show everything - much harder to run your best when you have to work proportionately harder than other guys to stay with the front swim and bike packs. But really, what other men would be strong runners with weak swims? Van Ort?

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

It's funny, I was down in Clermont talking with one of the coaches and we were talking about the Americans, and the coaches of said athletes. We sorta laughed because it's like for most of those guys, they all need different races in order to be successful. Take a guy like Lagerstrom (spelling), he wants to get out on the bike and just get in a group and hammer the shit out of the bike, so he can get a gap because he has a weaker run. But if the races goes down like that, it destroys any chance for guys like LV, Pedersen (his training partner), Vanort. But then if races all come together, it definitely benefits the runners, see Jason Pedersen's Yoko WTS result (1 week earlier, he had bad swim and finished way down). A guy like Zaferes has really done well the past 2 months in ITU (just hasn't raced WTS yet).

That is the difference I see with our elites. Where other countries top guys simply can adapt to the race at hand, our top guys sorta need everything to go in their favor in order to score well. And a lot of that is still because we are in the developmental stage of how to keep triathletes triathletes in their college years. We are slowly getting there, so my guess is 2020, we'll see better top end ITU results.

So that's why it's interesting what ITU event they choose as their Olympic trials. My guess is that it's going to be a low technical, flat course. They'll probably have 1st round of trials as early as late summer 2015.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Chicago '15 seems like a reasonable spot for a first trial. With it being the series finale everyone will likely be jacked.

They have to add Rio to the schedule next year, don't they? Seems like the future host is usually in the series the year prior.

I see what you're saying about Pederson in Yokohama. That being said, I was surprised to see collegiate swimmer Maloy out run him there. Looks like Maloy ran in high school, so not a total newbie, but still surprising. Is that more of a compliment to Maloy's development?

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

The only issue with having it at a Grand Finale is that it likely wont have many Americans actually in the race. Granted with the 1st Olympic trials in 2011, we only had 3 American men racing for the spots (I think technically only 1 guaranteed spot was going to be on the line, since we only gained 2 men's Olympic race spots...if we would have had 3, then obviously the 1st 2 within the top 9 would have guaranteed spots).

I would think a more likely trials would be an earlier event. They always could make it an ITU American event (sorta like Dallas this year). We usually hold 3 ITU events per year (not counting WTS level), but the florida swing is too early in the season for it to ever be used as an Olympic trials event.

Maloy has developed very nicely under Paolo Sousa, as has Pedersen. Maloy only beat him by 10s and I would attribute that more to Pedersen being gassed from the swim and bike more than Maloy. This past weekend Pedersen outsplit maloy on the run. Maloy has shown great consistency, whereas Pederesen when he struggles, has really struggled this year. I think Pedersen is one hell of an athlete and just a good dude (hell they all are). But he's really humble for where he is within the US team structure. I hope he can find some consistency in the next year more than anything.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

And just for reference, I don't think they have officially announced the process for team members but here was the 2012 standards:

Women (they were pretty much always guaranteed 3 team spots):
-First 2 women who finished top 9 at 2011 London ITU (GJ 2nd and Groff 7th)
-First women who finished top 9 at 2012 San Diego ITU, if not discretion pick (Bennett 3rd, beat out Haskins who was 8th)

Men-Crazy story about the men's team spots. So while the US was on the fringe of earning 3 team spots, we were banking on winning 2011 PAN AM games with Kemper (which would have given us the PATCO uto spot). He would have easily been favorite. Anyways, Kemper crashes out riding into lapped athlete in the transition down in Myrtle Beach (want to talk about shit hitting the fan with USAT HP staff, lol oh boy). So with Kemper out, next option was going to be Huerta, so they had Mark Fretta and Chrabot basically domestique Huerta all the way to the run, where he gets beat out in a sprint finish by Brazil's Colucci. So that basically meant San Diego 2012 was going to be the Olympic trials and only 2 spots would be earned.
-1st man in top 9 earned a spot, but no spots were earned at 2011 London ITU, 1st trials event
-1st 2 men across the line in top 9 of 2012 ITU San Diego would make the team.

It was actually pretty special to see Huerta's reaction upon making the team. He had no idea where he was at the finish, and basically stood at finish and started counting who was laid out. When he realized he was 9th and 2nd American, that crowd erupted after seeing how emotional he was. Pretty special moment, the kind you love to hear about from people who cherish the ideals of what America offers people.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com