I haven't had this problem with them not scoring races. Locally, it's known that these waves are still for AGers but, like you said, to put the expected top AGers together to give you a chance to actually race. Usually you start first with the other waves going right after. Definitely not racing under different conditions. There should be some sort of effort to push back against this. Pandemic racing is all I've known in triathlon & it's been frustrating missing out on a place (or even being up on someone) by a handful of seconds. Would like to see local races & even bigger races like IM keep elite/sub-elite waves to try to give people a chance to race. But I know it's a really specific problem at the end of the day. Just something that's not 100% working on my end where you don't race AG locally and then at the bigger races you have no idea where you're at in the race.

The one problem I had with a local race was showing up and them implementing ITU wetsuit rules just for the "elite" start. So everyone else got to wear a wetsuit except the people competing in that wave. You're automatically taking points off of your score rating & the mid pack scores would be driven up since the swim would be faster. It didn't make any sense to me.

I'm the exact same age and scenario as you competing in local Elite/Competitive/etc waves. Sometimes the local event company pulls you from the AG ranks but generally it's just an AG wave for those competing for the podium. One event company does this at all their races now as they've found most athletes not competing for podium spots like the time trial start.

I digress, historically all my results are sent to USAT as an AG thing, regardless of how the local event company does awards.

Are you saying this happened to you or you suspect it MIGHT happen?

This has happened to me for one race this year. However, other races that also had "Invitational" waves earlier in the year this did not happen and ranking points were assigned. For the last race the athletes for the "Invitational" do not appear in the race results on the USAT site for the race.
Also, this was not an error as I have reached out to the race director and timing company, who then contacted USAT and were told "Invitational" waves aren't scored. The below is a quote from these discussions.

Here are the USAT ranking rules from their website:
“*For category purposes, any athlete that does not compete in their age group wave will be considered open for that race. All athletes attempting to qualify for Age Group National Championships – Olympic-Distance will be required to race within their age group at any on-road or off-road triathlon race.”

The weird thing is this is not how other race results with "Invitational" waves were scored.

Bad policy IMO, they should just score the race... especially with so many races being started with time trial starts. If you're an AG'er(do not hold an elite license), you're an AG'er end of discussion IMO.

It’s a lot easier to bike with the fast guys in the ‘elite’ wave than it is to race in your age group say

Having to swim through the previous 3 waves as well as Having to pass 100 + bikers seriously adds to your bike time

Hence the different race conditions for the elite wave

and I do get that being in the first wave gives a cleaner race, but at these events pretty much anyone can opt into the invitational wave. You generally forgo being able to place in your AG in the race, so its win or go home and some people prefer to stay in their AG and get that 1st place award. I like to challenge myself against usually younger athletes and get more satisfaction in those races even if I don't win.
It just was a surprise that for this last race I did USAT didn't score us, where they had for these waves in previous years, and previous races this year.
I didn't realize that choosing a supposedly tougher grouping kicked me out of being scored.
Maybe it is down to how the race directors/timing companies present their results to USAT.

I used to think so too but if you slip stream legally past 100 people you’re going to get a pretty good draft affect right there. Same can’t even be true for the swim. If there’s enough people when you’re not swimming over bodies, there is certainly a current produced in the water.

If you're a good swimmer.

If you can hang with 50min IM swimmers, no prob. If you're a 60min swimmer in the elite wave you're staring down a solo effort for the majority of the bike. If you're an AG jump into a swim 5min faster than your expected time and latch onto anyone you can hang with, by the end of the swim you've drafted your way to a decent swim and now get 100 fast swimmers to slingshot past on your way to the front. 'Having' to pass 100+ bikers adds conservatively 1 min to your overall time. 'Having' to swim through the previous waves adds even more.

Not to mention the wetsuit legal AG swim up to 76/78 deg and 71 deg for pros. AG times on average are inflated by a few minutes. Pro times at the front are slightly less representative as the races are very generally more tactical and less (personal) record-setting. AG's have a benefit of wetsuit, slingshot, and self selected start position. It's less pure racing and more helpful for PR setting, which completely makes sense as a business model.

This quote is a slightly different topic, qualification for Nationals.

For both Nationals qualification and USAT score, it depends on how the race director reports the results to USAT, or so I was told about 10 years ago when I communicated with USAT and a race director about this.

Races can have an elite/open wave in which athletes are put back into their age group for awards and the race director reports the results in a way that doesn't indicate that an athlete was in an elite/open wave. This should result in elite/open wave athletes getting a USAT score and being able to qualify for Nationals.

Races can have an elite/open wave/division that is awarded and reported separately from the age group division but as part of the same race. This should result in these athletes getting a USAT score (treated as part of the same race as the age group division) but NOT being eligible to qualify for Nationals through this race.

Races can have an elite/open division that is reported as an entirely separate event/race. This event would also not be a Nationals qualifier but SHOULD still be scored by USAT. The one caveat here is that I think this separate race still needs to have age groups divisions within it. I have only seen this once (Elkhart Lake Triathlon), but it was definitely still scored by USAT, just as it's own little race.

The second way mentioned is what I've most commonly seen. With this you just have to be aware that if you want to quality for Nationals you can't race in the elite/open division.

I'm guessing the race director in your case reported it as an entirely separate race without any age groups. This may be why it wasn't scored.

However, some other oddity wouldn't surprise me. I haven't been impressed with the people running USAT rankings lately after trying to get some obviously wrong race results corrected last year (I told them exactly what they got wrong and how to fix it but they refused to do anything). They also had at least one professional in their end of the year age group rankings magazine issue. They're either incompetent or just don't care.

Yeah, idk about this. In my last race I biked off the front & didn't see a single person on course. There are also benefits to drafting & having other people around you in the age group start. With the time trial start now, I'm not sure how different conditions are. You're not biking with 100 people around you if you're finishing on the podium at a local race. Top AGers that don't join the elite wave will start at the front of their waves & likely come out of the water with a few other people to share the work with. I'm not seeing different conditions &, in my example, it was the elite (non-pro) field that couldn't wear wetsuits on a wetsuit legal day. Everybody else got the benefit of that = lower score ratings for the elite field. They scored the race, though, which is the issue here. If you're not a pro but are competing at the front of AG races/maybe want to try to turn pro, the elite fields are a great tool for that. If you're not gonna score them then why keep them.

To stroke people’s hobby ego.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. The open wave is where you race the best, there's nothing ego driven about that. You could be 4th OA and 1st in your AG and suddenly you don't get to claim "1st" AG (which is the stroking ego imo).

ETA: Now why USAT can't score an actual non-professional "open" wave in a race, makes no real sense imo. Obviously an true elite wave (professionals only) at a AG event will need to be taken out (or if no elite wave, pro's cant score in AG race obviously), but I don't think we are talking about that type of instance;

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I wonder if the scoring is incorrect or incomplete? It is worth asking USAT but I wouldn't expect a quick reply. I have seen incorrect results in the past and USAT has corrected. Additionally, Pros are still included in scoring. Ironman Events have the pros listed. A local race in Cleveland shows a pro in the scoring as AG, event though Pros have a unique membership number.

I think the issue is the inconsistency with updating results/rankings. Most of the time, races take a long time to be updated but I was surprised to see how quickly Clash showed up. It seems USAT is on a skeleton work model these days.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

100% agree. I don't think there's anything wrong about wanting to race people competing for the overall win/podiums. Running has seeded starts/corrals at every big race by time.

What I don't get is USAT not scoring AGers removing themselves from AG awards & competing against each other. I think everyone is racing in the same conditions and would argue that some people competing elite/open would race faster out of an AG start -- especially the slightly slower swimmers who might have a few people to ride with in that scenario. I also don't get why competing like that would lock you out from AG Nats. I know you're not competing for AG awards but you're still an AGer, maybe one of the top AGers out there who would finish top-15 at AG Nats. Theoretically somebody could compete with that locally but not qualify for AG Nats. Makes no sense. You don't tell a marathoner that their 2:25 out of the ADC at Chicago that their time doesn't qualify them for Boston.

Agree with this, there is no real large benefit in local/regional races to starting a minute or two before the field. Especially if it the AG race is a time trial start which many are these days in my area. Even if it is a bunch start, we're talking minutes and honestly it doesn't change much for people competing for wins/podiums.

I won a race last year that broke the field up into random groups from what I can tell. I started in the last group and passed a ton of people but honestly I may have gone slower had I been in group 1 and off the front.

Not scoring AG'ers as AG'ers is a bad policy by USAT.

The only defense I have of the policy to not transmit data for scoring to USAT with the elite division is older pros will sometimes start in the elite wave. I've seen it at two races that had the elite wave go off first. And sometimes the elite waves will have a small cash prize. I'm not sure if USAT has any issue with that on their national scoring?

If they're a FORMER pro, they're an AG racer. I don't think the awards should have any bearing on USAT scoring... if its an AG race submit it as such.

In local races, whenever I've started in the elite wave I've been scored as AG.

Even when I raced with the elites in draft legal, I was scored as AG.

I think there's a little bit of mixing up the actual names of the waves. An actual "elite" wave is for the professionals only; if you race in said wave as an non-elite, the usual ramification is DQ. Now local races may offer an invitational/open/insert whatever name you want to call it wave for all comers. The USAT scoring should score every single person doing that race. It shouldn't matter if it's elite wave + AG wave or if it's 100% AGs broken up into different waves, every race should score every finisher. It's basically only the awards that should come into play.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think there's a little bit of mixing up the actual names of the waves. An actual "elite" wave is for the professionals only; if you race in said wave as an non-elite, the usual ramification is DQ. //

This is an important distinction, as I ran afoul of it back in the day. Wildflower used to have a "Legends" division for old folks that were not racing pro any longer. It acted as an elite AG division. Over the years it declined, and one year when I was over 50, I was the only one in it. Come to find out the RD hadn't applied for it, and I was scored as a pro and DQ'ed. And not only that, I was suspended for the rest of the season, 6 months I believe.


And we put our case together, the RD apologized to USAT for not doing the proper paperwork, and I of course did not take any money from any pros. But they were super hard on this and kept my suspension in place. Dont recall if we got ranking points back then, I dont believe so. I think it was understood if you raced in the AG elite wave, you were separated from the AG results, and thus any rankings against them.


It kind of made sense back then, we didnt do TT starts and racing in that wave was usually an advantage. But I think it makes sense these days to rank everyone, a case can also be made that the crowded AG wave can be faster in many circumstances...

Circling back - my original post is definitely only referring to true AG participants entering into an Invitational wave made up of hobby athletes.
There is also a safety issue involved here that I'm sure many of you have encountered at local races where you can have a wide range of abilities and experience - I'm not talking Ironman here.
Being an older athlete you often end up starting in the later waves and I can find myself riding through a field at 26 mph when there are more novice participants moving at 15 mph. This has created more than a few dicey moments over the years. The invitational wave can work in separating the athletes out there for different reasons and make a safer race/event for everyone.

I think AG athletes racing in a race should be scored in that race, no questions asked. Whether they started in a special wave near the front, some AG wave, some random wave or in a TT staggered start. Score them... or you as an AG'er. Let's not complicate it USAT!

I get what you're saying regarding the starting in the front being ideal but honestly small'sh local races aren't terrible to navigate through. I started in a local race in wave 4 or 5 that seemed to be randomly picked as far as I could tell. Swam through a lot of people, biked through all but one person and won by 2 minutes even though I didn't catch the guy in front of me. Honestly having so many people to chase kept me engadged but anyway I'm getting off topic.

Let's not complicate scoring USAT! They(USAT) can't seem to figure it out as is... I had two profiles for '23 USAT points in checking mine recently. For some reason my Nationals races were separate from my non-nationals events and my AG isn't even scored. My AG is also a hot mess in regards to scoring with no rankings like some AG's and if I sort by 'ranked only'... I'm second in the nation. Not accurate unfortunately, I didn't have THAT great of a year.

To circle back, I think they should just score AG'ers(does not have an Elite license) as an age grouper regardless of how the race is structured. Side suggestion as well, get rid of this your USAT membership has to be active in December to be scored and receive AA honors stipulation. IMO, if some person pays three 'one days' and has three great races that would place them in AA or place really well in their AG... why not recognize them?

Anyway, climbing off my soapbox.

Yes, no local race is strong enough numbers that they are racing at 7am and next AG competitor 10:30am unlike at AG Nats. Lol which is the only race where it drives me crazy when they celebrate the “overall” winner at a race specifically designed for AG’s, lol.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I feel like USAT is addressing this concept in 2024 from some press release I've seen, but only in the opposite direction.

There's a "just for fun" or newbie wave or something like that. Where you aren't scored with your AG and you're lumped in the beginner group where presumably they aren't going to be as strict on drafting rules, etc. Most people probably won't know enough to enter it, but the idea is sound if they take it a step further. You are automatically seated into the "participation division" unless you opt into the age group race. But that's probably doing too much differentiation just to satisfy a few hypercompetitive male age groups. My wife and daughter aren't at all focused on the podium and they regularly podium in our local 300-400 athlete races, while I have to go pretty much max effort to get there.

It would be a shame if those people who get a surprise affirmation of a podium place to be denied that because they didn't realize they are faster than they thought they were (or that there are only 5 others in their AG).