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Treatise on tire pressure
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Seems like a favourite topic is what psi to run tyre X at or I puncture loads on tire Y.....

Also seems that in spite of many many wheel manufacturers moving to "wider rim" technology tire manufacturers are still adding guidelines based on older rim dimensions such as a Mavic Open Pro (no doubt for sensible legal reasons as those are still on sale).


Notice in the below article from ST in 2014 that internal rim widths vary from 13mm to 20.6mm across manufacturers!

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...idths_2014_4370.html

This has large implications for both what size your tire *actually* measures out at once mounted and inflated to reasonable psi.


See an earlier post of mine here for examples of how widely actual versus printed width can be:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5967064#p5967064



Now apologies engineers and Tom A. if my terminology and simple logic is a bit off but it occurred to me that if we desired a "constant" ride sensation then the surface force is more relevant.

Let me explain.....

1) We mount a 23mm tire on a Mavic Open Pro training wheel, we inflate it to our preferred, within manufacturer guidelines, psi e.g. 110psi and it measures exactly 23mm wide.... this provides us with our desired ride quality.

2) So applying some simple math the surface area (length x width) of that tyre under 110psi is simplistically the length (which = the radius of the tyre (e.g. 330mm) squared x pi) x the width (which = pi x (23mm/2) squared)

All in all and converting to square inches in this example we get a number of.... 1336

3) So at 110psi this means the force is 146,900

So if we desire that same surface force on the tire all the time (i.e. ride sensation) logic and math dictates our tire pressure should drop substantially as the tire widens substantially, not remain the same (unless puncturing more often is your preference)


I ran through all these calculations from a starting base point of 23mm actual width at 110psi and concluded an equation can be used to calculate psi for same ride sensation based on actual width.


tire pressure = 74069 x [(tire width) to the power of -2.079]

For those of you that use excel it would look something like "tire pressure" = 74069*power("tire width", -2.079)


Some examples (with rounding up)....

23mm 110psi
24.6mm 95psi
26.2mm 83psi
28mm 73psi
29.6mm 65psi


So the next time you are wondering why your 25mm Conti GP4000sii is jamming in your bike frame on your Zipp's or you think you need to run 25mm Gatorskins on your ENVE wheels because you always seem to puncture and you like your tires at 120psi remember...... the answer is almost invariably your psi is wildly off based the dimensions of your rim and the actual ensuing tire width.

Of course YMMV depending on your bodyweight but same principle applies.


Regards,


p.s. Brainiac's feel free to add/subtract wisdom :-)

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Jun 5, 16 16:21
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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That's all well if you want a given force/ride quality.

For best aero resistance (disclaimer: tested with 23mm GP4000II, other tires may give different results) is 95psi. Source: http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...pressure-change.html

For best rolling resistance, the pressure is a function of the rider + bike weight. Source: http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/images/TireDrop.pdf
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Best aero resistance on the specific rim that they optimized for that tire. I suspect they probably optimized it for 95 psi. I doubt if that generalizes to other rims or other tires.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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I asked Chris at Flo whether he measured *actual* tire width with the tires tested and inflated such that the conclusions could be considered and "apples to apples" comparison and his response was no. To my mind that makes those aero conclusions less than perfect.

Yes, the surface contact patch and hence rolling resistance is a function of total weight hence my comment YMMV at end.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Just measured out some Michelin Lithium 25's that I train on which come out at 28mm on 3T Aura Accelero 40 mm rims!. No wonder they feel better below 75 psi
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Gjadams] [ In reply to ]
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Gjadams wrote:
Best aero resistance on the specific rim that they optimized for that tire. I suspect they probably optimized it for 95 psi. I doubt if that generalizes to other rims or other tires.

There's so much not-so-hidden info here

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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2) So applying some simple math the surface area (length x width) of that tyre under 110psi is simplistically the length (which = the radius of the tyre (e.g. 330mm) squared x pi) x the width (which = pi x (23mm/2) squared)
All in all and converting to square inches in this example we get a number of.... 1336
3) So at 110psi this means the force is 146,900

Something seems amiss...
The length is pi * diameter = pi * ~646mm = 2029mm.
The internal bead to bead circumference (or width laid flat) of a 23mm tire is ~55mm. So we have a surface area of 111,600 mm^2 or 173 in^2. At 110 psi that is a total force of 19,000 lbs.

Now... why do you believe this total force relates to anything having to do with proper inflation vs tire size or comfort? The contact patch area with the road will be approximately the pressure divided by the load. If there is a 100 lb load on a single tire inflated to 100 psi, then the contact patch will be ~1 in^2. Doesn't matter how big the tire is.

Comfort is primarily determined by pressure. But you can't run low pressure on a small tire because you will risk rim damage and pinch flats. Rolling resistance vs tire size and pressure is quite complex on real roads, and if you are trying to optimize for speed (aero too) then it's even more complicated.

I applaud your interest in taking a stab at this, but first you need to clearly define what you are trying to acheive and then make a sensible case for it.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff, but I agree with some others here that there are a lot of assumptions here.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Something seems amiss...
The length is pi * diameter = pi * ~646mm = 2029mm.
The internal bead to bead circumference (or width laid flat) of a 23mm tire is ~55mm. So we have a surface area of 111,600 mm^2 or 173 in^2. At 110 psi that is a total force of 19,000 lbs.

Now... why do you believe this total force relates to anything having to do with proper inflation vs tire size or comfort? The contact patch area with the road will be approximately the pressure divided by the load. If there is a 100 lb load on a single tire inflated to 100 psi, then the contact patch will be ~1 in^2. Doesn't matter how big the tire is.

Comfort is primarily determined by pressure. But you can't run low pressure on a small tire because you will risk rim damage and pinch flats. Rolling resistance vs tire size and pressure is quite complex on real roads, and if you are trying to optimize for speed (aero too) then it's even more complicated.

I applaud your interest in taking a stab at this, but first you need to clearly define what you are trying to acheive and then make a sensible case for it.


1) This is why I asked smarter people to chime in :-)

2) I made the assumption that since we inflate a tube / tubular to which the psi is applied the width is not the bead to bead but theoretically the "cylinder" circumferance......poor reasoning?

3) What I am trying to achieve is a manner by which comfort can be kept constant (in a physics sense) irrespective of tire width and my deductive reasoning led to thinking this would be the total force in lbs....

Regards,

D.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Last edited by: tilburs: Jun 5, 16 19:37
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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I love the enthusiasm here!!

We've been working on this one for a while (with the help of Tom A. and others..) and so far have not found an algorithm that fits well across wide ranges of tire widths, rider weights, or surfaces.

Tuesday we will be posting some stuff on our Facebook and web (and here) about the bead width / tire width topic here and you are spot on..tires are sized based on some pretty old norms such as 21-28mm tires are generally size based on 15mm bead width and some companies are sizing up to 25mm tires on 13mm bead width rims which makes those tires considerably larger than advertised when used on 17mm or 19mm rims, which are pretty much the norm for aero wheels these days.

Based on our data, your curve is too steep as the tires get narrower, but also important to note that the 115psi 'breakpoint' pressure that Tom A has characterized (and we've repeated on various surfaces with various tires) was for 23mm tires on 'perfect' pavement. We have one recent study using various non-perfect pavements that were created during a local re-surfacing project (gave us a nearly 1km stretch of road to test on where every few days we had a surface of different roughness to test on) and the difference of being 10psi below the 'breakpoint' was generally 1-2 watts, while the cost of being 10psi too high was as much as 12-15 watts on the rougher pavements..even on the final 'perfect' pavement the penalty of being overpressure was 6 watts while being under pressure by the same amount (10psi) was only 1 watt.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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What I am trying to achieve is a manner by which comfort can be kept constant (in a physics sense) irrespective of tire width and my deductive reasoning led to thinking this would be the total force in lbs....

I thought that might be it, but total force does not mean anything here.

As I mentioned earlier, the contact patch for a given pressure will be about the same regardless of tire size. What you might like to know is how much vertical motion corresponds to a given change in load, yes? You can try calculating that, and I think you will find that the skinnier tire will actually flex vertically *more* than the wide one. So it would give more comfort at the same psi, not less. Except that we don't experience a fixed variation in load while riding, rather we experience roughness. And the larger tire rolls over this better than the skinny one (less load variation).

I'm pretty sure a good theory and experiment could be devised to nail down the relationship of tire size, pressure, roughness, and response but it wouldn't be a simple task.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
rruff wrote:
Something seems amiss...
The length is pi * diameter = pi * ~646mm = 2029mm.
The internal bead to bead circumference (or width laid flat) of a 23mm tire is ~55mm. So we have a surface area of 111,600 mm^2 or 173 in^2. At 110 psi that is a total force of 19,000 lbs.

Now... why do you believe this total force relates to anything having to do with proper inflation vs tire size or comfort? The contact patch area with the road will be approximately the pressure divided by the load. If there is a 100 lb load on a single tire inflated to 100 psi, then the contact patch will be ~1 in^2. Doesn't matter how big the tire is.

Comfort is primarily determined by pressure. But you can't run low pressure on a small tire because you will risk rim damage and pinch flats. Rolling resistance vs tire size and pressure is quite complex on real roads, and if you are trying to optimize for speed (aero too) then it's even more complicated.

I applaud your interest in taking a stab at this, but first you need to clearly define what you are trying to acheive and then make a sensible case for it.


1) This is why I asked smarter people to chime in :-)

2) I made the assumption that since we inflate a tube / tubular to which the psi is applied the width is not the bead to bead but theoretically the "cylinder" circumferance......poor reasoning?

3) What I am trying to achieve is a manner by which comfort can be kept constant (in a physics sense) irrespective of tire width and my deductive reasoning led to thinking this would be the total force in lbs....

Regards,

D.

You're close...but the it's the cross-sectional diameter of the mounted tire you should be looking at. That has a direct affect on the tension in the casing ply threads for a given pressure. In other words, if a tire is 1-2mm wider on a rim as compared to the other, then for equivalent casing tension, the pressure should be dropped by the same percentage that the width has grown.

It's casing tension that holds your rim off the ground ;-)

But, as rruff and josh have pointed out, it's not just that simple...lots of variables at play.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thought I'd add some static force-deflection measurements of a few tires on a few rims at a few pressures:









Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
So if we desire that same surface force on the tire all the time (i.e. ride sensation) logic and math dictates our tire pressure should drop substantially as the tire widens substantially, not remain the same (unless puncturing more often is your preference)

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but are you saying that higher pressure makes punctures more likely? I'd always understood it to be the opposite, assuming of course that you don't exceed manufacturer's maximum recommended limit on pressure.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Something seems amiss... The length is pi * diameter

Thank Ron, I got it right in my spreadsheet just typo'ed when explaining.

joshatsilca wrote:
I love the enthusiasm here!! .....

Thanks Josh, it was actually your blog articles on psi & Paris-Roubaix that got me started thinking on this and also that got me through a bunch of Roubaix rides in last 2yrs with zero punctures!

Tom A. wrote:
You're close...but the it's the cross-sectional diameter of the mounted tire you should be looking at.....It's casing tension that holds your rim off the ground ;-)

Tom, I should have been more explicit I was referring to cross-sectional diameter once mounted when I was talking 23mm etc... but most importantly, exactly what I couldn't put in the right words! Casing Tension :-) Thank you!

damon_rinard wrote:
Thought I'd add some static force-deflection measurements....

Thanks Damon!

Just phenomenal to experience such insight and wisdom for technology stalwarts of the cycling industry in one place, much appreciated.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Using the correct term's thanks to Tom A. think about casing tension for a moment....the analogy I use is it is like a balloon, if we inflate a balloon so the surface tension is extremely high the slightest touch when brushed with a sharp object and it will pop, if the balloon is less inflated (lower surface tension) then for exactly the same touch it should give more. Seems a simple enough analogy that makes sense to me.

Of course you don't want to be so low with pressure as to be at risk of pinch flat.

My experience within the triathlon community is that this just isn't something that many athletes a) understand b) are taught c) realise can impact noticeably on their biking performance to the point that poor equipment choices are made e.g. gatorskins on ENVE wheels for an Ironman on decent roads....

Seems like Josh@Silca has helped publish a great piece on the matter today entitled "Talking tires with Josh Poertner"

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, very helpful. I tend to default to 100psi and 25c on all my bikes these days (apart from my winter bike where I can just about squeeze a 28c onto the rear but not the front). With race tires I've had issues with pinch flats at any lower pressure than that. On training/commuting/winter tires I could probably get away with less pressure, but I commute nearly every day and often only check tire pressure once per week, so pumping them up to 100psi means they're generally still at ~85psi by the end of the week.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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We have one recent study using various non-perfect pavements that were created during a local re-surfacing project (gave us a nearly 1km stretch of road to test on where every few days we had a surface of different roughness to test on) and the difference of being 10psi below the 'breakpoint' was generally 1-2 watts, while the cost of being 10psi too high was as much as 12-15 watts on the rougher pavements..even on the final 'perfect' pavement the penalty of being overpressure was 6 watts while being under pressure by the same amount (10psi) was only 1 watt.

Great stuff, Josh!

Has that data been published?
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, great information! Tough to read on the graph though. Do you have numbers by any chance?
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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http://trstriathlon.com/...ith-joshua-poertner/

Some more from Josh. Great info.
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
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tilburs wrote:
I asked Chris at Flo whether he measured *actual* tire width with the tires tested and inflated such that the conclusions could be considered and "apples to apples" comparison and his response was no. To my mind that makes those aero conclusions less than perfect.

Yes, the surface contact patch and hence rolling resistance is a function of total weight hence my comment YMMV at end.

Why do you have to know the actual tire width for the aero results to count?


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Canadian wrote:
tilburs wrote:
I asked Chris at Flo whether he measured *actual* tire width with the tires tested and inflated such that the conclusions could be considered and "apples to apples" comparison and his response was no. To my mind that makes those aero conclusions less than perfect.

Yes, the surface contact patch and hence rolling resistance is a function of total weight hence my comment YMMV at end.


Why do you have to know the actual tire width for the aero results to count?

because those are the apples

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Canadian wrote:
tilburs wrote:
I asked Chris at Flo whether he measured *actual* tire width with the tires tested and inflated such that the conclusions could be considered and "apples to apples" comparison and his response was no. To my mind that makes those aero conclusions less than perfect.

Yes, the surface contact patch and hence rolling resistance is a function of total weight hence my comment YMMV at end.


Why do you have to know the actual tire width for the aero results to count?


because those are the apples

So you are saying people want to set their tire pressure not by the PSI reading, but instead by using a set of calipers to measure tire width?


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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I think they're saying you guys smartly optimized your wheels for an optimized tire, in which the main component of drag differences between other tires would be width, and to compare it would be useful to know what the actual width of the tire was, what the inside width of the wheel is, and the tire pressure run at, because then you can test against another optimized wheel/tire/pressure/Crr system to get true apples to apples

IOW, it's a known quantity what the CdA of your wheel with a GP4000s is, and if we knew the width we could figure the pressure and thus the Crr and then do the math.

I think this is sort of "part 2" to your tire compendium, where we see that despite being a brick, the Specialized TC rolls very fast and at low yaw is OK

Canadian wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
Canadian wrote:
tilburs wrote:
I asked Chris at Flo whether he measured *actual* tire width with the tires tested and inflated such that the conclusions could be considered and "apples to apples" comparison and his response was no. To my mind that makes those aero conclusions less than perfect.

Yes, the surface contact patch and hence rolling resistance is a function of total weight hence my comment YMMV at end.


Why do you have to know the actual tire width for the aero results to count?


because those are the apples


So you are saying people want to set their tire pressure not by the PSI reading, but instead by using a set of calipers to measure tire width?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Treatise on tire pressure [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
I think they're saying you guys smartly optimized your wheels for an optimized tire, in which the main component of drag differences between other tires would be width, and to compare it would be useful to know what the actual width of the tire was, what the inside width of the wheel is, and the tire pressure run at, because then you can test against another optimized wheel/tire/pressure/Crr system to get true apples to apples

IOW, it's a known quantity what the CdA of your wheel with a GP4000s is, and if we knew the width we could figure the pressure and thus the Crr and then do the math.

I think this is sort of "part 2" to your tire compendium, where we see that despite being a brick, the Specialized TC rolls very fast and at low yaw is OK

Ok. I get your point. I just finished Part 2 of our tire study. The results are pretty cool. I am putting the final touches on it and should be releasing it this week.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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