The thing that jumps out at me is that you say you cut back to 5k "easy" for the week prior. Typically, a good taper is reduced volume (but not too reduced for typical masters swimmers and / or distance swimmers) but you need some fast stuff. If you don't do the fast swimming, that's what happens, you get sluggish feeling. Probably something neuromuscular going on when you don't get the fast stuff in.

I don't approach taper as "easier", just shorter, faster and more recovery time.

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How are you preparing? I had issues - I felt sick out the gate in my swims and same for my daughter on race day(she was 1st out of the water back then, local races)

The change for me came in the form of Hammer nutrition. I did my warm-up, which is run several km's, then I followed Hammer's website. basically a gel or two timed around 20-30 mins before the start. In a wetsuit I also use lots of petroleum gel as a lube/water absorption retardant. then a swim before start.

Last 3 races have been awesome.

One race I used Gu and it was not so awesome :(

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At least once or twice per week, start off your session fast, without the usual build of a traditional in-water warm-up. The reason is that you need to do inntraining what you expect to do in the race. When that gun goes, it's splash-and-dash for everyone. You don't go straight from a build warm-up to the race.

In practices, start on dry land with some arm swings, jumping, and maybe a little fast walking or jogging to get the muscles primed. Then, just get in and start at the pace you think you'd need in the first 300m of that race.

Also, what Jason said: stay "sharp" during taper by including fast efforts in practices, but cut don the volume.

Relative times O/W vs pool.

Don’t set yourself up for a “top 35ag” placing.

You could have a shitty swim and go 20th or a great swim and go 40th.

Out of all three sports, math is your best friend with swimming.

Maurice,

A lot of variables.. If there were 650 swimmers all in one wave, where did you start? Near the front?

I actually think this first reply of the thread might have nailed it. I have a few more races coming up this season, so might give your advice a go ...thanks.

Definitely something worth looking into, thanks.

Ta, will give this a go too.

Thanks...I never set myself a time target for this race because it's tide affected, but Saturday was my 20th, and I have a fair idea of where I should place, all things considered... Saturday's result was poor, I know that much....!

My age group had three waves, approx 220 each wave. The start line is wide enough so that you can start at the front if you like.

My start was sh#@house!

Was that the Pier to Pub?

I've never raced it (this is my second year in Melbourne), but it looks like a washing machine and it seems that getting a good time is as much a matter of luck as it is technique. Do you have other races or events this season you're focusing on?

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

In my experience, every OWS is so different that picking an expecting finish time—let alone an expected finish place—is a poor way to race plan. Too many variables-conditions, sighting, other swimmers around you, your pacing etc. Work on your start in a practice as well as some fast sets in the days leading up to the race as others said.

I think he's talking about relative to other people he trains with, and also feeling "sluggish" at the same time.

OW skills are very important too, but as to the "sluggish " part I think he's not tapering well.

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Well then all the factors I listed are still in play except possibly conditions unless they literally all started next to each other

I was just getting at that I don't think the OP was really looking at a finishing time so much as how he's doing relative to others that he "should" be able to keep pace with or finish ahead of.

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I see people saying this all the time about not transferring their pool speed to open water speed. I agree with what Jason said. I also think there may be 4 other items at play:

1. No waves in the pool
2. No rest off the wall
3. No sighting in the pool, meaning you don't have to lift you head to see and your legs don't drag
4. Wetsuit (maybe you don't have one on where you live, in which case nix this)

To me, I think number 2 is the most important, so to get over that one, when you push off the wall, dolphin kick or flutter kick until you emerge and if you have to go in decent oxygen debt after your wall push off every time. This way, you get no rest off the wall and when you emerge you are sapped of oxygen, which is what can often happen anyway in a pack swim.....just get used to dealing with no rest and oxygen when you can't have it.


The other items in terms of waves and sighting, honestly if you are not the lead swimmer, just put your head down and follow the feet in front....generally the pack swims the shortest line overall.

Yes, I understand, and my comments remain the same. I believe there are many factors as to why you may lose time in an OWS compared to someone who you can pace with in a pool. You may disagree.

I agree, but I think sighting is the biggest factor, unless you're a real wall-hugger on open turns in the pool. For sure, I get into more oxygen debt on my flip wall turns during interval sets than I do on race day where I don't have to hold my breath as long in OW. Sighting, however, is a real factor and I think is underestimated by like 1000% on this forum and elsewhere. I've been working a lot lately on my OWS 'skill set' to narrow the gap between my pool and OWS, and sighting is enemy #1.

I actually feel pretty proficient at sighting and have a good rhythm to it, but like it or not, if I'm doing a hard 10 x 200 in the pool, the moment I force myself to sight every 3rd stroke cycle at minimum, I slow by +3 to +5 sec/100, which is a pretty big hit. (Interestingly, if I am doing near all-outs, it's barely +1/100). I never see anybody on these forums mentioning doing sets with sighting in the pool, but now that I'm throwing these into my regimen, it is NOT trivial for the typical AOS, certainly not trivial enough that you can just practice it for a bunch of lengths randomly prior to race day and expect it to be smooth sailing and not at all detrimental to your normal stroke when you race. I feel this is a skill that really needs to be hammered home at the AOS level and is really neglected, as it carries a huge time penalty either in terms of poor navigation or simply slowing you down from the head lifting.

I think relative position compared to others is static. Look at the ITU guys. You're either front pack, back of front pack, 2nd pack or 3rd. It's almost the same at Ironman racing. If you put all those guys in the pool, their pecking order will be identical. Once you get to a certain level of age group racing the pecking order in the pool and open water is going to also be identical, because everyone has decent tactics and has the subtleties of open water down. It is extremely rare that I see the pecking order change between FOP age groupers between pool and open water. If the order changes its like a 1-2% exception.

Do we think Sun Yang could win the 10K open water swim in the olympics. I'd be surprised if when he was winning the 1500m, he would not win the 10K open water.

I don't disagree, just that from what the OP is describing I don't think that the other factors are as much in play as messing up the taper.

warmup might also be an issue, reading the posts again. 30 minutes is a long break between warmup and the race start.

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At the ITU level, I would agree with you, but I think comparing this guy to an ITU racer is a poor comparison

I felt sluggish at competitions in the past, and I couldn't call on my full potential, when I had a rest day the day before the event. For me it always worked better having a rest day 2 days out, then the day before the event do a shortish session with some competition intensities built in. For example, for your swim event it could be 30-40minutes easy swim including 5 times 1 minute in competition pace with adequate rest in between. This goes combination with the comments the others made, don't stop the intensities completely the week prior, your body will go into recovery- instead of competition-mode.

Another point could be the warm-up routine - you don't describe it. 20 Minutes warm up, either in the water or a some kind of run and rubber robe combination.

In worst case, with one week of low quantity and intensity of training, then 2 rest days, and no warm up on race day, your body would be in no state whatsoever to draw on its normal potential you built up over the weeks before.

Fair enough. I was trying to compare him to the front of pack guys in his age group locally (or wherever he fits in relative to them). I would think that will be fairly consistent between pool and open water. And perhaps the right comparison is how far you are off those guys in the back half in a hard set of 10x200m or 5x400m. Its kind of easy in 100m sets to get in the draft and hang on for dear life and feel like you're on par with some guys, but when the sets get a bit longer the bungee chord breaks perhaps at the same point and you now have more time when the gap is widening. Set's that are 400m long will likely provide the real delta in the pool, which will be reflected in open water. I see a lot of guys claiming who they swam with and thinking they are the same caliber because they were being towed along in the same lane and they depart a bit early and go hard for the next 25m to get in the draft, push off hard and get a better draft and feel good about keeping up. That's OK and great racing practice but the true test would be leading the lane with those guys being pulled behind. I am not saying this is the case of the OP, just a general comment about lane pecking orders at swim practice.

Thanks for the input... my tumble turns give me plenty of practice RE point 2... ouch!