That number is purely based on fitness condition.

Your max time spent for a long run should be based on how long you can go and still be able to recover taking a recovery day.

So what you can run on sunday and be able to resume your training schedule by tuesday given monday is a recovery day.

For most people that puts them around 3 hours.

I did my first marathon last month, 4 hrs. Pretty bad considering I did the half in 1:40. I fell apart mechanically after mile 22 because I had not trained enough running long. Most of my long runs were under 2 hours. Everything was just fine until the part came past which I had not trained much. It's not about aerobic base, it's getting your mechanics bullet proof enough to last the duration. That said, running past 3 hours often is probably not a good idea either (injury/recovery!), but if you get enough of these 30K runs in, it will help a lot to prepare you. I believe volume is the name of the marathon game.

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I ride a Cervelo...get over it....

The thinking is that running over 2:30 or 3 hours is going to hurt you more in terms of recovery or injury than it is going to help you in endurance. This is especially true if you form starts to deteriorate. Hydration and nutrition is also more difficult for that long of a run, so you may end up in a big hole afterwards, which is going to affect your recovery. Add more volume by adding more runs during the week.

The three hour magical barrier is one that I recommend all my athletes not to break during training - in fact for may IM I recommend no more than 2:30 runs . I base this on the time it takes to recover, the nutritioinal demands of longer runs and the fact that most peoples form starts to break down the longer you are out there on the road.

However, you have to listen to your own body and if you feel you can go longer safely then please do so - but again in general 2:30 to 3 is the max. Frequency of running should compenstate for the shorter 3 hour runs.
Graham

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Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz

Thanks to everyone for their input.

I generally run 45-57K/week. 1 LSR, 1 Easy Run, 1 Track Workout and another easy run if I can fit it in.

I did a 3hr run yesterday and 2 hrs later, a 1.5hr ride. I feel great today and will swim at lunch.

My only worry/fear is that if I only do a couple more 3hr runs, I will not have the oomph to get to 4hrs+ on race day.

I have also been adding cycling quite a bit more the last 3 weeks so am hoping the cardio from cycling and lots of swimming will pay off.

As for the 2:30 IM runs, guess I'll be trying that out this summer while training for my first IM.

Thanks again!

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

You might want to try a couple of bricks in your training - then you are practicing running on tired legs, but without the pounding of running for 3+ hours. Not sure if this works for others but it seems to make my running stronger.

Why do you think you need to run almost / nearly the time and distance you will be covering in the marathon? The race should be the utlimate goal, and if you already have 3 + hours down, you know you can go another 1 hour, right? Its a risk to overtrain that way ... I bet the Boston winner doesn't run 26 miles close to the pace (4:45 miles) he runs the race in training, so why should we?

I generally run 45-57K/week. 1 LSR, 1 Easy Run, 1 Track Workout and another easy run if I can fit it in.

HADD pointed out that people make 2 mistakes when training for a marathon.

1) They run too fast

2) They do not run enough

I think if you are running 45K (28 miles) it is not enough. In addition, it appears that on many weeks you are only running 3x's/week (if you can't fit in another easy run) which is also not enough to build the most important component of running, your durability. It is difficult but you should run 5-6x's per week to build up your leg strength, then slowly increase the overall mileage.

If you don't, you will likely finish but it will be painful and very hard on your body.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

It looks like you have 2 or 3 easy runs a week, plus the track workout. If you need to make your next run after the long run easy, then I would think about going shorter on the long run, but longer and harder on the easy run. How long is your Track Workout? Make sure you get a nice long, easy warmup for that, and then do an equally long, easy cool down run. That will help you get in more total miles, plus get you used to running on tired legs.

I think the concept of the 3 hour run for slower runners is bogus. However, the additional load on your body is pretty significant above about mile 20 if you aren't used to it.

Here's the theory as I understand it (it does make sense):
1) To be a better runner your ultimate goal should be to go faster.
2) To get faster you need to concentrate on form and muscular strength rather than pure endurance.
3) If you run a *lot* of 5k-20k distance runs and do speedwork, you will gain speed.
4) With your newfound speed, a 3 hour run now means you can cover 22.5 miles (8 min pace) rather than 17.5 miles (your current 10:15 pace).

Now there are some big disadvantages to doing a lot of speedwork and doing the maximum run at 3 hours. First is that people tend to injure themselves doing speedwork. The second is that if you don't have enough time to get fast (8 min pace or better for long distance runs) then your maximum run distance is only going to get as high as 18 miles...maybe. If you do a 10 minute pace and max out in training at 18 miles I will guarantee a total meltdown at mile 22 and you'll be happy if you can walk to the finish line. The only way to avoid this is to have years of running background...at which point we wouldn't be having this discussion because you'd be running a 7 minute marathon pace and your 3 hour run limit would be almost 26 miles.

The concept of the 3 hour maximum run only works if you are already fast. A 3 hour run if you run a 5 minute pace is 36 miles. That in itself should show you the absurdity of picking an arbitrary number to never exceed. And the Kenyans frequently exceed the marathon distance in weekly training runs. I don't think that's a good idea for slower runners, but it gives you a good frame of reference.

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 "it appears that on many weeks you are only running 3x's/week (if you can't fit in another easy run) which is also not enough to build the most important component of running, your durability"

Excellent point. It's one thing that many rec-runners and most particularly triathletes can do that does have a very postive, cause and effect relationship on performance improvemnt - increase your running frequency( days of running/week)

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Don't take this the wrong way, but the conventional wisdom you refer to was not conceived with 4 hour plus marathoners in mind.

There is no good way to coach slower marathoners because on the one hand you need to get in those 20 mile runs and on the other you don't want to be out there for 4+ hours on a training run.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

I bet the Boston winner has far better running genes than I do!

I need to know in my head that I can go for longer then 3hrs or ~35K. More a mental workout vs. physical for me.

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

I'll preface this by saying.....I am NOT a fast runner, never have been and currently, no huge plan to get *faster* until after 2006 season is over. I am slow and steady. Kinda like a turtle or snail :)

Track workouts just started...Warm Up of 2-3K and I was doing 200's with a 200 recovery. This week I am trying 4X800 Yasso's for the first time.

I do have 4 runs scheduled for the next 4 weeks, then the 5th week is the taper leading into the Marathon.

Thanks for everyone's input, I appreciate it. Running is my weakest of the 3 and now that it's cycling weather, I would far rather be on my bike then running 5/6X a week!

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

The Boston winner has better genes than pretty much most of us when it comes to running...

I need to know in my head that I can go for longer then 3hrs or ~35K. More a mental workout vs. physical for me.

Let me assure you that it will be physical for you and your body with the extended time on the road. Most training programs for marathons stop at 20 miles for the long run for a variety of reasons, and the results can vary for folks on race day. But most of those programs are also written with the more-than-average mileage runners in mind who will follow the rest of those programs and get into the 60-70 (or more) miles per week routine which allows the body to perform better.

The 3-hour mark is very significant as a training run and going beyond that will do perhaps more harm than good *on the road*. If you're an ultrarunner, you will routinely do more than that but it's a completely different type of running and certainly a totally different surface than running on the roads.

If you're insistent upon going longer than 3 hours in your training, make sure it's far enough out from your race to be able to recover properly....and take some of the others' advice regarding perhaps adding another session or two into your program.

Personally...(and I'm NOT a coach :-)

I'd drop the track workout. Go long, stay aerobic.

Get your body as efficient as you can make it - at going long, as fast as possible and still staying aerobic.

If you were running a 2:45 marathon, I'd say that the track work would help ya since based on a 2:45 time you've LIKELY conditioned your body to go fast aerobically.

If you do the track workout because on that day you don't have time for a longer workout....I would still take whatever time you were going to spend doing track work and just make it a recovery run in your aerobic zone for the same length of time.

But that's just me....

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The world is full of pricks who can only criticize. Are you one of them?

Your time and energy are limited. Are you wasting them by talking shit on the forums? -Dave Tate

"If you're insistent upon going longer than 3 hours in your training, make sure it's far enough out from your race to be able to recover properly....and take some of the others' advice regarding perhaps adding another session or two into your program"

I know I will be doing one more 3.5 hour run before the Marathon. Most likely this coming Sunday(30) or on the 7th. Leaving 2-3 weeks of "shorter runs" before the actual race. So far, recovery has beeen really good after the longer runs.

I will be doing 4 runs/week for the next 4 weeks and hopefully I can find time to add in a 5th run for 3 of those weeks.

Thanks for the advice.

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

HA HA HA.2:45 marathon. Not in my lifetime ;)

I've questioned the track workouts w/ only 5 weeks to go as how much could I really improve? I'd rather do a longer-ish run and add some tempo or pick ups to it instead.

Thanks

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

I'd drop the track workout. Go long, stay aerobic.

I agree that there is no need to do a track workout when you are running a 4 hour marathon. I'd also suggest even a track workout is aerobic.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008