Trainerroad FTP Inflation...

Jan 27, 15 7:50

Post #1 of 42 (5656 views)

Rather than do FTP tests, over the last few months I've been adding 5 ftp every 2-3 weeks....and it seems to be working really well via trainerroad. My protocol has been to add 5 FTP if I break records during two consecutive interval sessions which is usually in the 2-3 week window. For example, if my 10 minute power record jumps from X to X+5, and during the next interval workout that week my 2 minute power jumps from X to X+7 etc.

I was wondering if anyone else uses this method? and what your window for increase is? (i.e. every 10 days, 3 weeks etc.)

I haven't hit a road block yet where I can't complete the workout after an FTP increase but this may be due to the fact that I'm not running at the moment and focusing on biking for the first time in awhile.

Ender

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 7:58

Post #2 of 42 (5625 views)

Yes, I just look at power data, when I see records being broken in aerobic zones, I assume FTP has gone up a bit, and raise.

You can also look at your MMP curve and eyeball where the new FTP likely is

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 7:59

Post #3 of 42 (5619 views)

Are you periodically backing up these FTP bumps with a more established protocol, like a 20' estimation test, or a full blown 60' test?

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [rijndael] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:09

Post #4 of 42 (5592 views)

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/...ns-seven-deadly-sins

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [rijndael] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:14

Post #5 of 42 (5578 views)

rijndael wrote:

Are you periodically backing up these FTP bumps with a more established protocol, like a 20' estimation test, or a full blown 60' test?

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all. That said, if I can complete the workout (e.g. Sufferfest:The Rookie or Nine Hammers) without having to take an extra rest or miss my wattage/FTP levels during the workout then I know I'm good. Hmmmm doesn't this imply that I've acheieved that level of FTP? It's a good question that I haven't considered.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:17

Post #6 of 42 (5562 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

Rather than do FTP tests, over the last few months I've been adding 5 ftp every 2-3 weeks....and it seems to be working really well via trainerroad. My protocol has been to add 5 FTP if I break records during two consecutive interval sessions which is usually in the 2-3 week window. For example, if my 10 minute power record jumps from X to X+5, and during the next interval workout that week my 2 minute power jumps from X to X+7 etc.

I was wondering if anyone else uses this method?

I do something similar.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:18

Post #7 of 42 (5558 views)

the workouts you are doing will greatly affect how you perceive yourself and your ftp level. When you start doing some longer intervals at just below and over your ftp and you can hang through several intervals you'll get a better understanding of where you are at. I recently went through this exerience where the plan I was on made me feel like superman when actually it hadnt even gotten difficult yet and my running frequency was increasing at the same time. I'm due for a test soon. Keep up the good work.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:19

Post #8 of 42 (5557 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

Rather than do FTP tests, over the last few months I've been adding 5 ftp every 2-3 weeks....and it seems to be working really well via trainerroad. My protocol has been to add 5 FTP if I break records during two consecutive interval sessions which is usually in the 2-3 week window. For example, if my 10 minute power record jumps from X to X+5, and during the next interval workout that week my 2 minute power jumps from X to X+7 etc.

I was wondering if anyone else uses this method?

I do something similar.

I should've added that I find I forget that I've added those 5 watts, which takes all the "head games" out of the equation which I really like. It also forces me to adapt and improve every few weeks rather than become stagnant.

Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Jan 27, 15 8:22

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 8:54

Post #9 of 42 (5475 views)

Are you following one of their training plans? If not, which workouts are you doing?

http://www.thedeludedcyclist.wordpress.com

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:01

Post #10 of 42 (5450 views)

This=>
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/...deadly-sins.html?m=1

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:04

Post #11 of 42 (5443 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all.

Thanks. It would have been interesting to compare the data sets.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [rijndael] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:10

Post #12 of 42 (5417 views)

rijndael wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all.

Thanks. It would have been interesting to compare the data sets.

My workouts right now are Sufferfest The Rookie and Nine Hammers, the rest of my riding is easy Z2. Also, my long rides are at 60-70% FTP and I have no problem holding the new FTP amounts and am amazed how easy 70% feels....compaired to the Ninth Hammer :)

Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Jan 27, 15 9:13

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:27

Post #13 of 42 (5383 views)

jackmott wrote:

Yes, I just look at power data, when I see records being broken in aerobic zones, I assume FTP has gone up a bit, and raise.

You can also look at your MMP curve and eyeball where the new FTP likely is

Jack - this is sort of what I have been doing as I hate formally testing. I don't want to take time to make sure I'm properly rested.

How do you accurately raise FTP based on a power curve?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:32

Post #14 of 42 (5364 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all. That said, if I can complete the workout (e.g. Sufferfest:The Rookie or Nine Hammers) without having to take an extra rest or miss my wattage/FTP levels during the workout then I know I'm good.

I don't think that is right. A workout is not a race, you shouldn't 100% exhaust yourself during a training session (or why not do a 1 hour 100% FTP session 6 times a week.. how long could you maintain that?)

If your real FTP is say 300, and you raise your FTP on trainer road to 310... you would be doing all your workouts a little too hard, right? I am sure you can complete them (except for say, a 1 hour 100% FTP test)... but you would be building towards overtraining, and you would eventually start to break down.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [TunaBoo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 9:43

Post #15 of 42 (5327 views)

TunaBoo wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all. That said, if I can complete the workout (e.g. Sufferfest:The Rookie or Nine Hammers) without having to take an extra rest or miss my wattage/FTP levels during the workout then I know I'm good.

I don't think that is right. A workout is not a race, you shouldn't 100% exhaust yourself during a training session (or why not do a 1 hour 100% FTP session 6 times a week.. how long could you maintain that?)

If your real FTP is say 300, and you raise your FTP on trainer road to 310... you would be doing all your workouts a little too hard, right? I am sure you can complete them (except for say, a 1 hour 100% FTP test)... but you would be building towards overtraining, and you would eventually start to break down.

If rest is built in, you won't burn out. I think the OP is hoping to adapt to the incremental change over time. Obviously there's a limit...eventually he'll reach a plateau but that doesn't have to be overtraining. If he keeps increasing the Power goals after reaching the plateau, that might be a problem.

Dtyrrell

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 10:13

Post #16 of 42 (5253 views)

I don't just automatically bump it up every few weeks but I do I fiddle with my FTP numbers. My trainer curve is both a bit off and, worse, non linear so I don't get super great virtual power numbers off of TrainerRoad. (I've verified that with some computrainer sessions). This is not a TrainerRoad issue - my trainer is old and I don't think it performs exactly the same as the newer one with the same model name they used to get the power curve. FTP test to FTP test is still a good benchmark but I don't necessarily use the number TrainerRoad gives me for training as I need to make some adjustments to make the workout targets more effective for me.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 10:23

Post #17 of 42 (5234 views)

Just remember the definition of FTP, and be honest with yourself. I have an athlete who always wants to bump his FTP based on sufferfest workouts, and I have to remind him that if he doesn't think he can hit a number for 60', it's higher than FTP.

With that said, it's not always practical to test, so sometimes you will have to bring it up a bit, especially early in your season when gains happen fast.

Tim Russell, Pro Triathlete

Instagram- @timbikerun

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [TunaBoo] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 10:37

Post #18 of 42 (5199 views)

TunaBoo wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm not backing them up with any form of FTP test at all. That said, if I can complete the workout (e.g. Sufferfest:The Rookie or Nine Hammers) without having to take an extra rest or miss my wattage/FTP levels during the workout then I know I'm good.

I don't think that is right. A workout is not a race, you shouldn't 100% exhaust yourself during a training session (or why not do a 1 hour 100% FTP session 6 times a week.. how long could you maintain that?)

If your real FTP is say 300, and you raise your FTP on trainer road to 310... you would be doing all your workouts a little too hard, right? I am sure you can complete them (except for say, a 1 hour 100% FTP test)... but you would be building towards overtraining, and you would eventually start to break down.

I don't 100% exhaust myself during every session...far from it actually. I usually do 2-3 hard workouts (100% exhaustion) and 2-3 easy workouts (no where near it) a week. I'm focusing on the bike at the moment due to some knee issues. It's working for me at the moment, and removes all the head games that come with "official" ftp testing. If for some reason, I'm not able to complete a workout or find it too difficult I might consider scaling it back but it hasn't happened yet. I should add that I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Jan 27, 15 10:38

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 10:50

Post #19 of 42 (5172 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Are your FTP numbers from Virtual Power, or from a PM?

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [rijndael] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 10:59

Post #20 of 42 (5155 views)

rijndael wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Are your FTP numbers from Virtual Power, or from a PM?

Generally from Trainerroad, but I verify once in awhile with a Powertap. I like my virtual power to equal my powertap power. I've calibrated the trainer set up to match the powertap.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 11:03

Post #21 of 42 (5142 views)

EnderWiggan wrote:

rijndael wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Are your FTP numbers from Virtual Power, or from a PM?

Generally from Trainerroad, but I verify once in awhile with a Powertap. I like my virtual power to equal my powertap power. I've calibrated the trainer set up to match the powertap.

I am a bit confused. Why would you use virtual power instead of real power if you have real power available?

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [noofus] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 11:11

Post #22 of 42 (5124 views)

noofus wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

rijndael wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Are your FTP numbers from Virtual Power, or from a PM?

Generally from Trainerroad, but I verify once in awhile with a Powertap. I like my virtual power to equal my powertap power. I've calibrated the trainer set up to match the powertap.

I am a bit confused. Why would you use virtual power instead of real power if you have real power available?

It's not my Powertap...I have to borrow one from a close friend :)

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [noofus] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 11:20

Post #23 of 42 (5102 views)

noofus wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

rijndael wrote:

EnderWiggan wrote:

I'm finatical about having the exact same variables every time I get on the trainer (i.e. tire pressure, number of turns, even cleaning the trainer tire, and fan position...)

Are your FTP numbers from Virtual Power, or from a PM?

Generally from Trainerroad, but I verify once in awhile with a Powertap. I like my virtual power to equal my powertap power. I've calibrated the trainer set up to match the powertap.

I am a bit confused. Why would you use virtual power instead of real power if you have real power available?

Prob doesn't want to use his race wheel...When I'm only on trainer in the "offseason", i use trainerroad virtual power. Once i get outside, then I do a few hard rides to determine FTP on power meter.

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 11:20

Post #24 of 42 (5101 views)

I talk about this in depth here:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...mal-power-chart.html

In short, you can either 'eyeball it' which works fine with just a bit of experience.

You can use the various models in golden cheetah to model it for you. (2 parameter CP will tend to estimate a bit high, their new model that actually does a passable model of the entire curve is better)

I just eyeball it.

WKO4 will have a very nice model for this purpose as well. As long as you have some hard longer and hard shorter efforts it will figure out your FTP close enough.

colinlaughery wrote:

jackmott wrote:

Yes, I just look at power data, when I see records being broken in aerobic zones, I assume FTP has gone up a bit, and raise.

You can also look at your MMP curve and eyeball where the new FTP likely is

Jack - this is sort of what I have been doing as I hate formally testing. I don't want to take time to make sure I'm properly rested.

How do you accurately raise FTP based on a power curve?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Trainerroad FTP Inflation... [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Jan 27, 15 11:27

Post #25 of 42 (5086 views)

jackmott wrote:

I talk about this in depth here:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...mal-power-chart.html

In short, you can either 'eyeball it' which works fine with just a bit of experience.

You can use the various models in golden cheetah to model it for you. (2 parameter CP will tend to estimate a bit high, their new model that actually does a passable model of the entire curve is better)

I just eyeball it.

WKO4 will have a very nice model for this purpose as well. As long as you have some hard longer and hard shorter efforts it will figure out your FTP close enough.

colinlaughery wrote:

jackmott wrote:

Yes, I just look at power data, when I see records being broken in aerobic zones, I assume FTP has gone up a bit, and raise.

You can also look at your MMP curve and eyeball where the new FTP likely is

Jack - this is sort of what I have been doing as I hate formally testing. I don't want to take time to make sure I'm properly rested.

How do you accurately raise FTP based on a power curve?

One man's hard is another man's not so hard. The software can only use the data put into it. The software does not know how hard the athlete was trying. It will estimate FTP based on the data it sees regardless of how motivated the athlete was.

You need some verification of what constitutes a hard effort.

The software could easily estimate FTP as decreased based on the fact you were not trying as hard this month as you were last month.

Last edited by: Trev: Jan 27, 15 11:34

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