I prefer two-day blocks of intensive training, followed by two recovery days. For example, Tuesday nights I ride 45 miles, of which the middle 25 is repeat hill climbs on a looped course, on which the grade max is 18%...usually 8-10 repeat loops. The next night I usually run 1/2 mile hill repeats or mile repeats(6) on the track. Weekends are also two day hard blocks with monday to recover. If you can recover from this, I think that you may like it and see the benefits. Just my .02

track workouts on tired legs. for me that would be a recipe for injury but depends on how fragile your legs are. if the TT and the track workout are both key sessions for your week then you probably want to be rested for both. what limiters are you addressing with each workout?

FFF, what is your goal race distances?



Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Funny you should ask. I did a 25k TT last night, and just got back from doing a pretty rough track workout. My legs were heavy thoughout and pretty dead by the end. I figure that's how they'll fell at the end of a IM. Easy swim tonight and a easy bike tomorrow.

Kurt, most of my racing now consists of half IM and full IM races. I also do hill repeats on Sat morning, which consist of a .44 mile hill - we do 8 repeats, and they are pretty intense, the last half of the hill levels off but still slightly uphill, so the last half of the repeat is almsot at track type pace. I figure the track work on tired legs will help with the longer distance races, running on fatigued legs.

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People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

I've seen quite a few "run on tired legs will help" comments lately. unfortunately many of those same folks post 5 and 6 hr run splits at an IM. I certainly can't see 400m repeats helping your long course racing much.

I agree with Nick C.

Sounds pretty dangerous.

While coaching Masters swimming - I had a group of five come together (this group was training for a local triathlon) - 2 men, 3 women -- they joined a running group and told me how they did two hard track workouts a week.

I tried to get them to join my triathlon clinic - and gave them the tip to build base first - low heart rate training to build durability in thier body.

"Speed Kills" I would semi-joke with them.

one by one - they got injured - a hip, a knee, stress fracture - all five, out injured.

Do not get me wrong - Speed work is important - but there is a time and place and purpose for speedwork. Doing speedwork AFTER a hard bike time trial does not sound like the proper purpose.

I agree with nickc too - especially since you are TT at night and then doing another hard intensity workout the next day - with out adequate time for recovery. I would put an easy day (easy swim/spin) in between your hard workouts. If the goal of the track w/o is "very hard" 400s and 800s...then, how can you assume you will go VERY hard on tired legs? Just a recipe for an injury or mental defeat. JMO. Might as well go a little rested into the Track w/o and really maximize your fresher legs.

then yea, what Nickc says. I dont see the point in 400's or 800's for HIM or IM racing.

I would rather tempo and descending sets that are long 30-45min.

And on that running on tired legs thing. I have moved my long run to Thurs (2:15 today) and will tell you it sure is nice. People say they need to do the Sat Long bike, Sun long run to feel that tired feeling...I would argue if you are training for an IM, when are you ever "fresh" except hopefully at the end of the taper. So I still run on tired legs, just not "exhausted" legs. Then I do 2 longer bikes Sat/Sun with a 1 hour tempo run thrown in there.

My .02.

Train smart. Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

""""I prefer two-day blocks of intensive training, followed by two recovery days. For example, Tuesday nights I ride 45 miles, of which the middle 25 is repeat hill climbs on a looped course, on which the grade max is 18%...usually 8-10 repeat loops. The next night I usually run 1/2 mile hill repeats or mile repeats(6) on the track. Weekends are also two day hard blocks with monday to recover. If you can recover from this, I think that you may like it and see the benefits. Just my .02'''''''''''''''''''


But you will not see your best run benefits from this, you might achieve PB's running but they will be slower than the PB's you could achieve. You would be smart (and faster in the long run) if you did your running quality workouts when fresh.

Where did people get the dumb idea that trying to run fast on "tired" legs will actually make one a faster runner. Those same people probably never heard of specificity of training either though.



Also go reread Nickc and truckweaz's posts.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I know what WSL is going to say but... I love you man! :-D

Kurt, when you say descending sets do you mean a workout like running an 800 loop and starting at 4min per 800 and gradually working down to 3min pace with say 10 second jumps?

Are the tempo runs evenly paced or do you gradually build and then gradually slow down?

Thanks,
Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

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http://www.aiatriathlon.com

LLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

ok back to study for my pass or get fired test tomorrow.



ps - I already told him I wasn't answering his email for 2 days b/c of that comment.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I vote nope ... Like others said, you won't get as much out of a hard running session if your legs are sore ... Now a track-out the day after a hard swim day is different.

Unless you are doing sprint triathlons, I don't think I would ever do any "all out" 400's or 800's. Maybe things have changed over the years, but you have to remember that you are an endurance athlete and not sprint/middle distance runner on the track......

I remeber Paul Amey doing 200's in 27 2 weeks before Hawaii. That is 3:36 mile pace. Unless it came down to a a 400m sprint under 55 seconds, I thought that it was waste of time. Maybe he was just letting steam out...one hell of a runner though!

I usually keep it simple (and avoid the track). I might start near 8:00 pace (easy) run 10min there, then start to descend (by feel) ~:15sec per/mile every 5min, finishing at say 6:15 pace and holding it for 5min. Then starting over. This is is just an example, but I do a lot of sets in that manner.

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Everyone is different, listen to your body. Personally, I probably wouldn't if I was wasted after the TT and still felt it the next day. Your run speed workout is probably the most important workout of the week to start with fresh legs imho.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

You know, I may not be the coach you are, or aspire to be, but I recognize that we all respond somewhat differently to training stimuli, and recover at vastly different rates. Athletes also vary considerably regarding injury reactions to overtraining. I base what I do on my ability to recover and the lack of injury I seem to have.
It seems that there is this "cookie cutter" training doctrine, and triathletes are afriad to act out of that box.
With that said, it works for me, and I have tried your way too. I am not saying you are wrong, as you did of me, just that your reccomendation is not as effective for me as you seem to think.