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Total immersion swimming coach update
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I'm having my first swim lesson tomorrow with a total immersion swimming coach. Would anyone like to share their thoughts on this technique of training?
Last edited by: Fishbum: Oct 28, 17 14:04
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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There's been previous threads about this; a quick search for "TI" turned up this whopper:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...h_string=ti#p2831900
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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The founder of Total immersion, Terry Laughlin, died October 20 of complications from the metastatic prostate cancer. I read the book. I was an adult onset swimmer and I found it helpful (although I am super slow).
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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It's a fantastic starting point. Once you feel you've reached a certain level of accomplishment you may choose to stick with it 100%, go a different direction or mix and match but you will do no harm giving your swimming some focus this way. You'll have to find your own way.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input. My wife has been my de-facto swim coach these first few years but she feels like she is taking me as far as she can. I'm a decent swimmer but have a long ways to go and of lot of things I could clean up.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I've had TI coaching one-to-one in an Endless Pool and it was very helpful for me. Good luck!
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah this is going to be one-on-one training going to do several sessions several weeks apart so I have time to work on stuff
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Let us know how it goes.

Honestly, a good swim coach will be work it whatever technique or philosophy they have.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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TI takes a beat down here because they aren't oriented on competition and this forum is. I found TI hugely helpful, but their technique is, imo, one oriented towards gliding long distances with relative ease. Of course, that's not what competition swimmers do. But the TI focus on long slow strokes really helped me because I totally didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing. I don't think I'd have figured it out if the school I subscribed to was one of rapid turnover.

Most of the really good swimmers here swam when they were young. Youngsters seem to figure out swimming incredibly quickly. I've seen my boys make more progress in technique in 20min then I'll make in 6 months. For swimmers that get started as an adult, I think the TI approach is a really good way to figure out what's going on. The long careful strokes and orientation on efficiency was just what I needed. Once you get pretty good at TI, then you can shift-fire to a school that is more competitive oriented. You'll have to unlearn the long TI glides, but that's ok.

I still suck, but I have a clue as to what I'm supposed to be doing. I owe TI a lot.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I used to argue online with Terry (RIP) about our differing ideas. Great person though. As others have said, TI is of the "long and strong" approach, and doesn't focus much on actual propulsion. It can get you comfortable and it could be a good starting point. My big issue with the TI approach is that it can be hard to unlearn some of that stuff later on. The TI approach tends to be almost antithetical to proper kick timing and hand/foot/breath timing in general. And all that timing stuff becomes crucial to actually swimming faster after a very short time of swimming easier.

To the poster who mentioned he couldn't imagine trying to participate in any of the faster turnover type schools, I would say there really aren't any of those. (Well, I do know one). Being told that your turnover is slow and you need to speed it up, while often correct, isn't really a school or a process or a viable alternative to slow turnover. Correct variety within a coherent process is hard to find in actual adult onset learn to swim faster program.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Thanks for the input. My wife has been my de-facto swim coach these first few years but she feels like she is taking me as far as she can. I'm a decent swimmer but have a long ways to go and of lot of things I could clean up.

I'm guessing your wife is a former competitive swimmer??? If you've been training under a real swimmer, then i would think taking up TI at this point would seem pretty weird, with too much slowing down of your turnover rate. I'm just guesstimating but i'd say anyone who can swim, or has ever swum, an all-out 100 yd in under 1:30 will not be well-served by TI. Others might say 1:40 or 1:20 but i'd say the cut-off time is somewhere in the 1:20-1:40 range. I think TI is most apropos for someone who's floundering around at 2:00 or higher for the all-out 100 yd. Others may disagree with my assessment. RIP Terry Laughlin.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Thanks for the input. My wife has been my de-facto swim coach these first few years but she feels like she is taking me as far as she can. I'm a decent swimmer but have a long ways to go and of lot of things I could clean up.

I'm guessing your wife is a former competitive swimmer??? If you've been training under a real swimmer, then i would think taking up TI at this point would seem pretty weird, with too much slowing down of your turnover rate. I'm just guesstimating but i'd say anyone who can swim, or has ever swum, an all-out 100 yd in under 1:30 will not be well-served by TI. Others might say 1:40 or 1:20 but i'd say the cut-off time is somewhere in the 1:20-1:40 range. I think TI is most apropos for someone who's floundering around at 2:00 or higher for the all-out 100 yd. Others may disagree with my assessment. RIP Ter onry Laughlin.



Yes she was. She feels like I'm dealing with some drag issues she can't correct.
I'm not sure what to expect but I am keeping a open mind. What ever it takes to get faster!!!!
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Thanks for the input. My wife has been my de-facto swim coach these first few years but she feels like she is taking me as far as she can. I'm a decent swimmer but have a long ways to go and of lot of things I could clean up.


I'm guessing your wife is a former competitive swimmer??? If you've been training under a real swimmer, then i would think taking up TI at this point would seem pretty weird, with too much slowing down of your turnover rate. I'm just guesstimating but i'd say anyone who can swim, or has ever swum, an all-out 100 yd in under 1:30 will not be well-served by TI. Others might say 1:40 or 1:20 but i'd say the cut-off time is somewhere in the 1:20-1:40 range. I think TI is most apropos for someone who's floundering around at 2:00 or higher for the all-out 100 yd. Others may disagree with my assessment. RIP Terry Laughlin.

Yes she was. She feels like I'm dealing with some drag issues she can't correct.
I'm not sure what to expect but I am keeping a open mind. What ever it takes to get faster!!!!

OK, well, good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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I had a TI coach for a while I got good at doing the drills but it never translated to faster swimming. I look back and think it was a waste of time. I wasnt a beginner and I could thrash my way around a workout as I was reasonably strong but I was dreadfully inefficient. I now firmly believe that the only thing that works is finding the right focus for you to work on while swimming and that should have very limited scope until you get it.

IMO cookie cutter drills for everyone do not work in fact I am pretty much against drills all together.
I much prefer to be actually swimming and think about one aspect every stroke.

A good coach should be able to spot your deficencies and give you that focus, although I must admit good coaches are very hard to come by and I have mostly been disappointed.

Iphone 7's and above have a great slo mo video option which has amazing resolution, if you can get one of those and video yourself over and under water and compare your self with a good swimmer on u tube or take a look at teh swim smooth animated swimmer app. tracking both videos frame by frame with reveal all sorts of issues with your timing, position, catch and kick.

I wish I had such tools 20 years ago
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Well my first lesson went well. Wife went along to watch and help me remember some of the drills later. She threw Alot at me but I dropped 2 stroke's per lap in the first hour. Feels very awkward and my breathing is all messed up because of new head position. But I think this is a good start.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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You dropped 2 strokes per lap, how did the pace per lap change?
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [ntc] [ In reply to ]
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We never timed a single lap. I was so focused on all the changes that I never even thought about it. I'm going to the pool tomorrow so I can check then. The coach was taking Alot of video and we would review every 100 yds and make adjustments.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Some quick background - I swim nonstop for an hour, 3 times a week, and knock out 4,500 yards or so each time between a 1:19 to 1:21 pace /100yds. That equates to somewhere around a 56 or 57 minute Ironman swim, no skinsuit. My point being that I'm a perfect test monkey for trying something different to see if it's faster since I'm basically in a swim wind tunnel for an hour and I'm pretty consistent. I tried TI style and was shocked - I swam the exact same speed but probably with 20% less effort. I finished the hour feeling far fresher and simply happier, more relaxed, and much better off if I was about to bike.

I do want to be clear though- I didn't swim faster, it just felt easier. And I didn't get to the pace I'm at by doing TI in the first place. You have to do things hard to get better, so don't get caught in the trap of swimming TI so it's easier. You won't get any faster. If you do TI, make sure to mix in hard efforts just like you would if you were swimming classic style.

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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like good advice. I just need to correct some technical stuff in the process.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Some quick background - I swim nonstop for an hour, 3 times a week, and knock out 4,500 yards or so each time between a 1:19 to 1:21 pace /100yds. That equates to somewhere around a 56 or 57 minute Ironman swim, no skinsuit. My point being that I'm a perfect test monkey for trying something different to see if it's faster since I'm basically in a swim wind tunnel for an hour and I'm pretty consistent. I tried TI style and was shocked - I swam the exact same speed but probably with 20% less effort. I finished the hour feeling far fresher and simply happier, more relaxed, and much better off if I was about to bike.

I do want to be clear though- I didn't swim faster, it just felt easier. And I didn't get to the pace I'm at by doing TI in the first place. You have to do things hard to get better, so don't get caught in the trap of swimming TI so it's easier. You won't get any faster. If you do TI, make sure to mix in hard efforts just like you would if you were swimming classic style.


This is the absolute key to avoiding the TI-rut once you're a past-beginner swimmers.

'Swim easy and get faster' works great for raw beginners who SHOULD do that, and even works for talented folks who rapidly improve on very little, much like the very real HS kids who can run sub 16 5ks de novo after a single short season of x-country running with no run background. Talent does that.

Otherwise, you gotta work hard to drop the time, no way around it. Every single swim coach, from Gerry Rodriguez, to Dixon, to Sutto, say you gotta hammer it while not ignoring technique, but all the workouts are farrrr more focused on the hammering and have very little light-effort drilling.

I also find it weird that sub 60 IM swimmer would find the TI approach 'new' - I dont' find anything groundbreaking or new about it. I'd summarize it as, 'streamlining is priority #1,#2,#3 to reduce the huge drag of water', and 'make sure you reach far and glide a little to get full extension' which works for those with short underreaches, but slows down a fast high-turnover swimmer. There's literally nothing I can point to about it that is novel in any way; I think of it more as a great way to introduce green NOOB swimmers to swimming in a gentle, structured way, with easy drills and gentle expectations. But for those trying to swim faster than MOP, I struggle to identify a single thing that's novel about the method or technique.

For all my critiques of it, it's still the #1 book by far that I recommend to my noob swimmer friends who are trying to survive their first triathlon OWS or pool swim. I don't recommend it to anyone faster than MOP though! 'Swim easy and go fast' is NOT the secret to an avg-ability AGer to getting faster!
Last edited by: lightheir: Oct 28, 17 19:16
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
ZenTriBrett wrote:
Some quick background - I swim nonstop for an hour, 3 times a week, and knock out 4,500 yards or so each time between a 1:19 to 1:21 pace /100yds. That equates to somewhere around a 56 or 57 minute Ironman swim, no skinsuit. My point being that I'm a perfect test monkey for trying something different to see if it's faster since I'm basically in a swim wind tunnel for an hour and I'm pretty consistent. I tried TI style and was shocked - I swam the exact same speed but probably with 20% less effort. I finished the hour feeling far fresher and simply happier, more relaxed, and much better off if I was about to bike.

I do want to be clear though- I didn't swim faster, it just felt easier. And I didn't get to the pace I'm at by doing TI in the first place. You have to do things hard to get better, so don't get caught in the trap of swimming TI so it's easier. You won't get any faster. If you do TI, make sure to mix in hard efforts just like you would if you were swimming classic style.


This is the absolute key to avoiding the TI-rut once you're a past-beginner swimmers.

'Swim easy and get faster' works great for raw beginners who SHOULD do that, and even works for talented folks who rapidly improve on very little, much like the very real HS kids who can run sub 16 5ks de novo after a single short season of x-country running with no run background. Talent does that.

Otherwise, you gotta work hard to drop the time, no way around it. Every single swim coach, from Gerry Rodriguez, to Dixon, to Sutto, say you gotta hammer it while not ignoring technique, but all the workouts are farrrr more focused on the hammering and have very little light-effort drilling.

I also find it weird that sub 60 IM swimmer would find the TI approach 'new' - I dont' find anything groundbreaking or new about it. I'd summarize it as, 'streamlining is priority #1,#2,#3 to reduce the huge drag of water', and 'make sure you reach far and glide a little to get full extension' which works for those with short underreaches, but slows down a fast high-turnover swimmer. There's literally nothing I can point to about it that is novel in any way; I think of it more as a great way to introduce green NOOB swimmers to swimming in a gentle, structured way, with easy drills and gentle expectations. But for those trying to swim faster than MOP, I struggle to identify a single thing that's novel about the method or technique.

For all my critiques of it, it's still the #1 book by far that I recommend to my noob swimmer friends who are trying to survive their first triathlon OWS or pool swim. I don't recommend it to anyone faster than MOP though! 'Swim easy and go fast' is NOT the secret to an avg-ability AGer to getting faster!

LH - See my post 11 above. What all-out 100 yd time would you say???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
lightheir wrote:
ZenTriBrett wrote:
Some quick background - I swim nonstop for an hour, 3 times a week, and knock out 4,500 yards or so each time between a 1:19 to 1:21 pace /100yds. That equates to somewhere around a 56 or 57 minute Ironman swim, no skinsuit. My point being that I'm a perfect test monkey for trying something different to see if it's faster since I'm basically in a swim wind tunnel for an hour and I'm pretty consistent. I tried TI style and was shocked - I swam the exact same speed but probably with 20% less effort. I finished the hour feeling far fresher and simply happier, more relaxed, and much better off if I was about to bike.

I do want to be clear though- I didn't swim faster, it just felt easier. And I didn't get to the pace I'm at by doing TI in the first place. You have to do things hard to get better, so don't get caught in the trap of swimming TI so it's easier. You won't get any faster. If you do TI, make sure to mix in hard efforts just like you would if you were swimming classic style.


This is the absolute key to avoiding the TI-rut once you're a past-beginner swimmers.

'Swim easy and get faster' works great for raw beginners who SHOULD do that, and even works for talented folks who rapidly improve on very little, much like the very real HS kids who can run sub 16 5ks de novo after a single short season of x-country running with no run background. Talent does that.

Otherwise, you gotta work hard to drop the time, no way around it. Every single swim coach, from Gerry Rodriguez, to Dixon, to Sutto, say you gotta hammer it while not ignoring technique, but all the workouts are farrrr more focused on the hammering and have very little light-effort drilling.

I also find it weird that sub 60 IM swimmer would find the TI approach 'new' - I dont' find anything groundbreaking or new about it. I'd summarize it as, 'streamlining is priority #1,#2,#3 to reduce the huge drag of water', and 'make sure you reach far and glide a little to get full extension' which works for those with short underreaches, but slows down a fast high-turnover swimmer. There's literally nothing I can point to about it that is novel in any way; I think of it more as a great way to introduce green NOOB swimmers to swimming in a gentle, structured way, with easy drills and gentle expectations. But for those trying to swim faster than MOP, I struggle to identify a single thing that's novel about the method or technique.

For all my critiques of it, it's still the #1 book by far that I recommend to my noob swimmer friends who are trying to survive their first triathlon OWS or pool swim. I don't recommend it to anyone faster than MOP though! 'Swim easy and go fast' is NOT the secret to an avg-ability AGer to getting faster!


LH - See my post 11 above. What all-out 100 yd time would you say???

I totally agree with your above post and range. And I do think there's quite a range, but the vast majority will fall in that exact range you mentioned. For me, the tipping point where TI became not effective was around 1:50/100. At that point, propulsion >>> drag reduction and has been ever since.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
lightheir wrote:
ZenTriBrett wrote:
Some quick background - I swim nonstop for an hour, 3 times a week, and knock out 4,500 yards or so each time between a 1:19 to 1:21 pace /100yds. That equates to somewhere around a 56 or 57 minute Ironman swim, no skinsuit. My point being that I'm a perfect test monkey for trying something different to see if it's faster since I'm basically in a swim wind tunnel for an hour and I'm pretty consistent. I tried TI style and was shocked - I swam the exact same speed but probably with 20% less effort. I finished the hour feeling far fresher and simply happier, more relaxed, and much better off if I was about to bike.

I do want to be clear though- I didn't swim faster, it just felt easier. And I didn't get to the pace I'm at by doing TI in the first place. You have to do things hard to get better, so don't get caught in the trap of swimming TI so it's easier. You won't get any faster. If you do TI, make sure to mix in hard efforts just like you would if you were swimming classic style.


This is the absolute key to avoiding the TI-rut once you're a past-beginner swimmers.

'Swim easy and get faster' works great for raw beginners who SHOULD do that, and even works for talented folks who rapidly improve on very little, much like the very real HS kids who can run sub 16 5ks de novo after a single short season of x-country running with no run background. Talent does that.

Otherwise, you gotta work hard to drop the time, no way around it. Every single swim coach, from Gerry Rodriguez, to Dixon, to Sutto, say you gotta hammer it while not ignoring technique, but all the workouts are farrrr more focused on the hammering and have very little light-effort drilling.

I also find it weird that sub 60 IM swimmer would find the TI approach 'new' - I dont' find anything groundbreaking or new about it. I'd summarize it as, 'streamlining is priority #1,#2,#3 to reduce the huge drag of water', and 'make sure you reach far and glide a little to get full extension' which works for those with short underreaches, but slows down a fast high-turnover swimmer. There's literally nothing I can point to about it that is novel in any way; I think of it more as a great way to introduce green NOOB swimmers to swimming in a gentle, structured way, with easy drills and gentle expectations. But for those trying to swim faster than MOP, I struggle to identify a single thing that's novel about the method or technique.

For all my critiques of it, it's still the #1 book by far that I recommend to my noob swimmer friends who are trying to survive their first triathlon OWS or pool swim. I don't recommend it to anyone faster than MOP though! 'Swim easy and go fast' is NOT the secret to an avg-ability AGer to getting faster!


LH - See my post 11 above. What all-out 100 yd time would you say???


I totally agree with your above post and range. And I do think there's quite a range, but the vast majority will fall in that exact range you mentioned. For me, the tipping point where TI became not effective was around 1:50/100. At that point, propulsion >>> drag reduction and has been ever since.

Interesting, thanks for your input. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [ntc] [ In reply to ]
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ntc wrote:
You dropped 2 strokes per lap, how did the pace per lap change?



Back at the pool again. So the drop is 2 to 3 strokes per 25 yrd lap. About 15 seconds better per 100 at cruzing speed. Trying to get things right and build muscle memory before adding speeding.
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Re: Total immersion swimming coach update [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
ntc wrote:
You dropped 2 strokes per lap, how did the pace per lap change?

Back at the pool again. So the drop is 2 to 3 strokes per 25 yrd lap. About 15 seconds better per 100 at cruzing speed. Trying to get things right and build muscle memory before adding speeding.

And so, your last time in the pool, acc to your ST posts, was 28 Oct??? Did you take a whole 7 days off??? Further, I don't mean to seem unbelieving but I've never heard of anyone dropping 15 sec/100 and 2-3 strokes/length, from one single session with any swim instructor, let alone with a TI teacher. I just find your "break-through" really hard to believe; I mean, 15 sec/100 is huge, espec if going from say 1:25/100 to 1:10/100, which are kinda sorta diff universes. :)




"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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