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Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed
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So the USADA lawyers grilled Landis today about the manager call; when did he know about it, when did he tell the lawyers, when did he fire the manager, and why did they wait to fire the manager until after Lemond spilled it all on the witness stand. The reason to ask Landis all these questions is because it "goes to his credibility".

Excuse me, but I thought the hearing was about the credibility of the only thing that mattered, the test results, and indirectly the testing lab. Either the results are help up and Landis is executed, or they are overturned for technical reasons (or just plain screwups), and Landis keeps his yellow t-shirt souvineer he got visiting France last year.

The test results are the only issue. Tour riders aren't bounced for being credible or not credible, and thank God for that. What Landis did from a few minutes after crossing the finish line in Paris last July and donating the appropriate samples as required or requested has nothing to do with anything. For better or worse, this isn't the NFL.

So, the USADA lawyers spend part of their precious 23 hours allotted for questioning during the hearing to go over truly scandalous, but irrelevent, behavior from last week.

Again, I have to ask the question, is this because this is all they got? What have they presented to back up the validity of the tests and the reliability of the standards. I think everyone would have to admit the defenses' points that what is considered a failing level in France for some of the isotope ratios is a passing level at the UCLA lab. What does that mean for real world situations? Where is a truly worldwide acceptable value? Where is the USADA response?

I so thought that this hearing would be about data and protocols and statistics and science. Instead, it is the Jerry Springer Show in Pepperdine, just with no women ripping the clothes off of each other over some redneck, unemployed bubba in a wife beater t-shirt.

Color me confused and disappointed.


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
Last edited by: parkito: May 22, 07 17:49
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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Completely agree, I would argue if they need to go down this path then the test results aren't good enough. And to that effect I am dissapointed. I want to know if he did or didn't, period. Sadly, that will never happen. Whatever the result, I am dissapointed because apparently an unanswerable question was raised.
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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You are right on. And what surprises me is that the USADA lawyers don't seem to get that. From the lawyers that I know, it's all about staying on topic. Attacking credibility of a witness to a murder is one thing as that witness' testimony may or may not damn the accused killer to prison or death. But attacking Floyd's credibility does nothing, if anyone needs to prove they are credible, I would think it'd be the French lab.

Then again, some part of me thinks steroids in sports is kind of cool. I watch sports to see super human performances, why not let them juice out of their minds and see how super the performances can be by a bunch of dudes who only resemble humans?! ha ha

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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" If the glove don't fit, then you must aquit!!" The trial is now becoming a farse, and it is all about building up brownie points. Doesn't matter that they are of no relevance, and both side wlll be doing it, mainly becuase it works.....
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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USADA is doing a great job at showing what a joke it is. My favorite is putting GL on the stand knowing (or should have known) full well he was going to refuse to be cross-examined. Absolutely rediculous. Any attorney (and I am one) who spent any time in a courtroom (was there today and will be tomorrow and Thursday too) should know that kind of evidence is crap - and the idiotic arbitrators should have reprimanded USADA on the spot rejected everything he said and moved on.

That being said, I do think the credibility of Floyd is relevant, after all he is testifying he did not use testosterone.

But I am just a Floyd supporter...



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"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Given recent history (Balco, Telekom, Hamilton, Jeanson, Puerto), it would seem disingenious for anyone on this forum to really question whether Floyd doped or not. For once and for all, they are all dopers. Oh yes, and for Monty, all Russian women marathoners are dopers - all of them - you really need to move back to sea level. Only one final question, however, remains: Why do these posters tout the same ridiculous arguments as the dopers? Me wonders.....

Oh yes, it is always refreshing to see a USAT board member state:

Then again, some part of me thinks steroids in sports is kind of cool.

Wait a minute, I guess I have answered my own question.
Last edited by: borealis22: May 22, 07 20:45
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [tildenm] [ In reply to ]
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I guess you're not much of an attorney - from ESPN's coverage:

USADA seems determined to make Landis' overall credibility, as well as his test results, a major issue. The agency got a boost in that regard when arbitration panel chairman Patrice Brunet announced Tuesday that he and his two colleagues had voted unanimously to allow LeMond's testimony into evidence after considering arguments from both sides for the last several days.

Last edited by: borealis22: May 22, 07 20:52
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [borealis22] [ In reply to ]
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Hey man, where did you get that I think anyone is innocent. I just pointed out that the two sides are using redirection tatics. Personally, I do believe that most of the peleton is doped, and has been for a very long time. Just different drugs, and more sophfistication these days...Can I stay up here in the thin air now???
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [borealis22] [ In reply to ]
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Either that or it was an idiotic ruling. Maybe Mr. Brunet and the others don't believe that an accused person has a right to cross-examine his accusers.



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"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty:

I love you but seriously, I am worried about that rarefied environment you ensconce yourself in!
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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One thing I have been asking myself lately, if Landis did illegally inject sythetic testosterone, I think more people would respect him for coming clean and admitting it. So in my view, if he is denying that he never injected himself, I think he's telling the truth. The fluctuation in landis's testosterone to epitestosterone levels during the dates around his positive don't really make any sense (according to John Armory, a WSU endocrinologist), and to me also, they went from 1.5-1 to 1.8-1 to 11-1 and back down to about 2-1 in about 10 days.

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"I like to start out slow, and then taper off."

-Doug Thorne (TVHS XC)
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [tildenm] [ In reply to ]
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Gosh, at least you have a sense of humor. At the heart of the arbitrators' decision, of course, is probably the relevance of the intended cross examination. Having looked at the arbitrators' legal cvs, I doubt they are unaware of that right. As in most arbitration situations, Landis chose one arbitrator, USADA chose the other, and these two chose the third. Landis' choice was Campbell (an ex-Olympic wrestler and the same guy who actually believed Hamilton) and even he agreed that Lemond's testimony should be allowed (without the cross as requested by Suh). 3-0, hmmm, I'm going with the legal expertise of the arbitrators over yours - trust you don't have a capital case tomorrow.
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [Xterraguy15-19] [ In reply to ]
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why wouldn't you attack the credibility of someone who has brought other's credibility into issue? surely, whether floyd landis is credible is a major issue when you consider that he says he hasn't done anything wrong?

Disclaimer : I haven't really followed the case too closely, as I'm of the opinion that Landis probably doped.
Last edited by: fulla: May 22, 07 21:10
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]
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"Then again, some part of me thinks steroids in sports is kind of cool. I watch sports to see super human performances, why not let them juice out of their minds and see how super the performances can be by a bunch of dudes who only resemble humans?! ha ha "

If people with that mindset make it onto the USAT Board, I am not surprised that no one wants to be associated with them anymore. On the other hand, beggers can't be choosers.

Sad state of affairs for amateur sports....

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [Xterraguy15-19] [ In reply to ]
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Sweet!! Use a quote from an actual doper in your signature line when arguing why you believe an accused doper!!! Stop the insanity - sorry too much green tea tonight.

From Velonews:

Two-time cross-country world champion Roland Green announced Tuesday that he has been retroactively suspended for six months after testing positive for a banned substance at the Houffalize, Belgium round of the World Cup last May (see "Paulissen, Dahle rule Houffalize World Cup").

And yes I know he just didn't fill out the TUE like the Canadian Cycling officials probably instructed him to....
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [borealis22] [ In reply to ]
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and of course his credibility is not as probative of him doping as the actual test results, but evidence about his credibility does still have persuasive value.
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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It is for this very reason that the power to sanction doping infractions was removed from sports governing bodies.
Last edited by: borealis22: May 22, 07 21:21
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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If someone is willing to cheat to win a lawsuit, is it such a stretch to think they'd cheat to win the TdF? Landis said he wouldn't do that, because winning the TdF by cheating is not really winning. Now we know he'll cheat to win. Doesn't prove the science, but it takes away the nice guy defense.
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [borealis22] [ In reply to ]
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USADA seems determined to make Landis' overall credibility, as well as his test results, a major issue. The agency got a boost in that regard when arbitration panel chairman Patrice Brunet announced Tuesday that he and his two colleagues had voted unanimously to allow LeMond's testimony into evidence after considering arguments from both sides for the last several days.


So, the verdict is in, it is all about Springer, and nothing about the science.

It would also seem like the fix is in. Not allowing the defense to vet Lemond on the stand, but still allowing his pro plantiff testimony is essentially ignoring the eleven foot tall elephant in the room. Everyone in the room had to have known that Lemond has been grinding away on a certain axe for some time.

I'm calling the result of the arbitration now. Landis loses. All that remains is to see what kind of comments the panels makes about the test results and lab, assuming they make any at all.


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
Last edited by: parkito: May 22, 07 21:39
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [ike] [ In reply to ]
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If someone is willing to cheat to win a lawsuit,

Could you either put that in context or reference it to something specific, as I am not following. Thanks.


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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Such an impassioned post! Great writing, thanks.
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [frenchfried] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you. However, I am waiting for Slowman to chime in. This arbitration hearing is all about process, and if there is anything near and dear to Slowmans' heart, it is process.

So far, I find that the process aspects of this hearing are truly absymmal. I would have to think Slowman would agree.

I suspect, though, that he will wait until the conclusion of the hearing before issuing an editorial to be completely fair. I'm just to impatient to wait that long.


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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"So, the verdict is in, it is all about Springer, and nothing about the science."

Well, if it isn't about science, then that would mean that they didn't find anything wrong with it, NO?

The whole proceedings just magnify the uselessness of the jurisdictional system to handle this kind of challenges, OUI?

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: May 22, 07 22:14
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [tildenm] [ In reply to ]
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"Finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour. Forever." Lance

"Finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who believe in professional cycling, the cynics and the skeptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t admit the truth. I'm sorry you don't believe in ethical and fair competition. But this used to be one hell of a race. This was a great sporting event and you should try to believe in it. You should believe in that you can win as a clean athlete, and you should believe in people who race clean. I've been a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I lived. And there are too many secrets now - this is a hard sporting event and unfortunatley professional cyclists think they have to cheat to win it. So Adieu le Tour. Forever." Farce

Nice template, Mr. .....strong!

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Last edited by: de-tri-mental: May 22, 07 22:39
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Re: Todays' Landis Hearing Update - I'm Confuzed [parkito] [ In reply to ]
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It just seems that so many legal processes in the USA sink into character asssiniation. As you so eloquently said-"just the facts, mame" While all the other BS just clouds the issues. It makes for long trials, lots on money spent for court time, makes more news, ect.

I'm with you-I really wanted to hear an independent panel to tell us if the lab testing is done correctly and fairly-and every athlete is entitled to know this!
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