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Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60?
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Any educated guesses on what I might lose with that setup over say a 23mm 4000? Got a pair of 25s with very low mileage that I'd rather not replace. I assume the 25 on the rear (Forte Titan with Wheelcover) is fine, but I'm curious about the front. Just got the Flo last week...so pretty.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I think it would be hard for someone to give you any hard numbers. My guess would be +/- 15 seconds for a 40k with it being equally likely that the 25 is faster

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Might be faster.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I like these answers.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed with others no way to tell, might depend on road conditions...rougher the 25 might be better.

MI_Mumps wrote:
I like these answers.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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I live and race in Michigan, so comfort on crap roads is big.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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At 0º yaw I'd think the narrower 23mm would be faster, but I believe FLO said they never tested the 25mm.

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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
At 0º yaw I'd think the narrower 23mm would be faster, but I believe FLO said they never tested the 25mm.

More aero? Yes. Faster? Probably not.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Is there any good data on the rolling resistance of gp4k 25mm, or are we just assuming that they roll slightly better than the 23mm? I seem to remember hearing (entirely unsubstantiated) that they in fact rolled worse than their narrower siblings.


Nick B wrote:
Timtek wrote:
At 0º yaw I'd think the narrower 23mm would be faster, but I believe FLO said they never tested the 25mm.

More aero? Yes. Faster? Probably not.


--
When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [JFromTheBlock] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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For the simple amongst us can you explain how to interpret the graph?

I learned a long time ago that the only pertinent information you offer is found within the last sentence.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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I'm thinking a low Y value means less resistance (faster)

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Just some in put.


I was recently at the wind tunnel testing some wheels (Front 35, 60, 80, 88 and Rear Disk).

On the 23 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88) the 20 SS was faster than the 23 GP4000 II.

On the 23 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88 deep) the 23 tire (GP4000 II) was faster than the 25 tire at all Yaw angles out to 17.5

On the 25 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88) the 23 tire was faster than the 25 tire at all Yaw angles out to 17.5

I also tested a 23 wide 80 deep Reynolds with the same tires and with the same results.

I tested the Bont aero tires on many of the wheels and they were significantly slower.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [JFromTheBlock] [ In reply to ]
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JFromTheBlock wrote:
Is there any good data on the rolling resistance of gp4k 25mm, or are we just assuming that they roll slightly better than the 23mm? I seem to remember hearing (entirely unsubstantiated) that they in fact rolled worse than their narrower siblings.


Nick B wrote:
Timtek wrote:
At 0º yaw I'd think the narrower 23mm would be faster, but I believe FLO said they never tested the 25mm.


More aero? Yes. Faster? Probably not.

The 2 that I tested rolled significantly slower than the 23's. Then again, there seems to be a pretty big variance among a lot of the Contis, so maybe I just got some slow ones.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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'faster' is relative. the question is how much?!
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [odin99] [ In reply to ]
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About 25 grams 23vs 25

About 37 for the SS vs 23

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
Last edited by: dkennison: May 2, 15 17:34
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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dkennison wrote:
Just some in put.

I was recently at the wind tunnel testing some wheels (Front 35, 60, 80, 88 and Rear Disk).

On the 23 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88) the 20 SS was faster than the 23 GP4000 II.

On the 23 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88 deep) the 23 tire (GP4000 II) was faster than the 25 tire at all Yaw angles out to 17.5

On the 25 wide wheel in (35, 60 and 88) the 23 tire was faster than the 25 tire at all Yaw angles out to 17.5

I also tested a 23 wide 80 deep Reynolds with the same tires and with the same results.

I tested the Bont aero tires on many of the wheels and they were significantly slower.
dkennison wrote:
About 25 grams 23vs 25

About 37 for the SS vs 23
On the 60 wheel what was the brake track width of it? Flo is 24.4mm

When the Crr & Aero are combined (e.g. TomA's blog), lower Crr can match/overcome the worst aerodynamic performances, depending on how the lines cross. Then on long rides/races or on bad roads, the larger tire can be more comfortable.

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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On the 60 deep 23 wide the brake surface was 24.72

On the 60 deep 25 wide the brake surface was 26.24

And yes, I agree with your thoughts. Your making a point that warrants real discussion. In both tires and wheels we are getting so close to the pointy end of the quality that there is cross over in Aero/CCR that make the choices almost indistinguishable. And, there are manufacturing tolerances in each wheel and in each tire; not to mention tire ware.

The choice seems to come down to "protection", "conditions" and "comfort".

It is getting the same way in frames. The difference (and "winner") in the top 5 frames can now be shuffled by 10's of grams of drag when those same changes can be found with different operators doing the testing with the same tunnel on the same day.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [mopshiv] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
For the simple amongst us can you explain how to interpret the graph?

Lower Y value equals lower crr. Also, for a given crr, you can run a lower pressure in 25mm which... is kind of a tricky statement because on bad roads the delta between 23s at say 100psi and 25s and 85psi might become even larger. That is, on road crr can vary depending on how rough/smooth the surface is. The smoother the surface, the less of a gain there is from the "suspension" provided by more air volume (approaching zero). The rougher the surface, the greater gain.

I'm just not eloquent today but I think you get the idea.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [roady] [ In reply to ]
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The 2 that I tested rolled significantly slower than the 23's. Then again, there seems to be a pretty big variance among a lot of the Contis, so maybe I just got some slow ones.

That's interesting. Tour tested 23,25, and 28 and bigger had lower Crr. I can't think of any reason why you would get that result because everything should be the same between them except size.
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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About 25 grams 23vs 25
About 37 for the SS vs 23


That isn't small!

Did you test the 20mm SS on the 25mm rim? Or maybe the 23mm SS at all?

Last edited by: rruff: May 3, 15 10:52
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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No I did not do either of those two tests.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, did the 20mm on the 25 rim, have less drag than the 23 on the 25 rim?

If you have the details somewhere, I'd be very interested. Maybe you could start a post with that subject?
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry I did not test the 20 SS on the 25 rim.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: Time penalty for 25mm GPS 4000 on Flo front 60? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Combined aero and CRR for Zipp 303 on a smooth surface


Article here
In general the 25s will be faster unless it is very windy




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