Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes

Aug 21, 14 4:00

Post #1 of 32 (5785 views)

Discs are becoming more prevalent on road bikes (can you enter a tri or a sportive such as the hautalp tour and have disc brakes? (that question is an aside to the rest of the post))

Giant, Focus, Cube, Canyon and many other manufacturers are now offering some variant on road bikes.

Principia and Focus I think are also offering thru axles.

Mountain bikes have obviously had these for years, and without getting in to the pro's cons of the issues, at present the only front thru axle dimension that I can see offered is Rockshock Maxle 15mm the same as a mountain bike and for the rear a 12mm.

Both DT Swiss and American Classic offer "thru" axles of 9/10mm by 100 and 135 respectively to use in open drop outs, but I can't find a road version of the Rochshock in a smaller diameter.

Does anyone know of any examples of someone producing a road variant for front and rear wheels with smaller diameters than 15 and 12mm respectively that are designed specifically to function in the same way a thru axle on a mountain bike does?

As a complete aside, are discs legal for tri? if not will they be? does anyone know if they are legal for sportives?

Thanks

Andrew

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:00

Post #2 of 32 (5711 views)

As far as disc brakes being legal it depends on the race. The are not yet UCI legal so they might not fly at ITU races.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
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Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:14

Post #3 of 32 (5700 views)

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Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:21

Post #4 of 32 (5688 views)

The "need" for thru-axles in order to make road discs "better" just cracks me up...Seriously.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:25

Post #5 of 32 (5681 views)

I specifically said, I'm not interested in the merits of them, there's any number of redundant technologies in and field, I specifically asked about disc legality and thru axle standards, i did not express a view about either

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:40

Post #6 of 32 (5668 views)

Andrewmc wrote:

I specifically said, I'm not interested in the merits of them, there's any number of redundant technologies in and field, I specifically asked about disc legality and thru axle standards, i did not express a view about either

Oh please...you knew what you were starting ;-)

Besides, it's not a "redundant technology"...it's a Band-Aid for a misapplication of a technology.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:54

Post #7 of 32 (5649 views)

Lots of good questions.

Disc brakes are kind of a speed killer for triathlon due to extra aero drag. However, disc brakes are great for all weather road training, gravel riding, and trail riding. I use them myself. In my view, for road/gravel use, thru-axles are not critical, but a front one does add some safety on the fork. Because, with most road bikes, the braking action of a front disc actually works to push the front wheel out the dropout. But not so in the back.

However, hoping on some standardization on thru-axles is, unfortunately, a lost cause. One only needs to look at crazy proliferation of BB types on road, MTB, and tri bikes ...

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Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:55

Post #8 of 32 (5648 views)

its a little like a Patek Phillipe - I can have a timex or I can have a Patek, functionally and cost wise the timex makes more sense but sometimes people want things for different reasons......(I don't have a patek but my point stands)

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 7:59

Post #9 of 32 (5643 views)

Andrewmc wrote:

its a little like a Patek Phillipe - I can have a timex or I can have a Patek, functionally and cost wise the timex makes more sense but sometimes people want things for different reasons......(I don't have a patek but my point stands)

So...what you're saying is that the desire for disc brakes on road/TT bikes is really about "style" then.

I already knew that ;-) A LOT of people like them simply because they just look so "moto"...whether they'll admit that or not. I'm glad you admitted it. :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

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Aug 21, 14 8:01

Post #10 of 32 (5637 views)

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:02

Post #11 of 32 (5637 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Lots of good questions.

Disc brakes are kind of a speed killer for triathlon due to extra aero drag. .

November Bicycles just went into the wind tunnel to test disc brake versions of their wheels vs. a standard set-up. They haven't yet released the data, but it should be interesting to see.

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Aug 21, 14 8:07

Post #12 of 32 (5628 views)

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:09

Post #13 of 32 (5626 views)

gabbiev wrote:

Tom A. wrote:

Andrewmc wrote:

I specifically said, I'm not interested in the merits of them, there's any number of redundant technologies in and field, I specifically asked about disc legality and thru axle standards, i did not express a view about either

Oh please...you knew what you were starting ;-)

Besides, it's not a "redundant technology"...it's a Band-Aid for a misapplication of a technology.

100% completely agree with you--road discs were invented to solve a problem created by another invention that met no functional need. Drives me crazy, this one.

Unreal, huh?

Thru-axles to "solve" the disc location repeatability issue with regular quick releases (although, I have to say, I haven't had that issue on my MTB...quick release seem to work just fine) is ~3 "solutions" away from the original technology misapplication. It's like doubling and tripling down on a bad bet...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Power13] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:10

Post #14 of 32 (5623 views)

Power13 wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Lots of good questions.

Disc brakes are kind of a speed killer for triathlon due to extra aero drag. .

November Bicycles just went into the wind tunnel to test disc brake versions of their wheels vs. a standard set-up. They haven't yet released the data, but it should be interesting to see.

Wheels mounted in bikes would be a better comparison instead of wheels alone. See Jack's link to the Culprit disc vs. rim bike data above.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:10

Post #15 of 32 (5620 views)

gabbiev wrote:

road discs were invented to solve a problem created by another invention that met no functional need.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, kinda curious, what was the other invention?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Aug 21, 14 8:11

Post #16 of 32 (5614 views)

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:13

Post #17 of 32 (5609 views)

gabbiev wrote:

Power13 wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Lots of good questions.

Disc brakes are kind of a speed killer for triathlon due to extra aero drag. .

November Bicycles just went into the wind tunnel to test disc brake versions of their wheels vs. a standard set-up. They haven't yet released the data, but it should be interesting to see.

Wheels or wheels mounted on bikes? Curious, is all.

I don't know what all was tested.....the only pic I saw was a wheel by itself, but I don't know if that was the totality of their testing. They may have tested them mounted on bikes, as well.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:13

Post #18 of 32 (5605 views)

gabbiev wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

gabbiev wrote:

road discs were invented to solve a problem created by another invention that met no functional need.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, kinda curious, what was the other invention?

Ultimately, it goes back to carbon clincher rims, which is a misapplication of material.

I would submit it's ANY rim with a carbon braking surface, clincher OR tubular...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:14

Post #19 of 32 (5605 views)

Sure, I can see that.

But for wet road and gravel surfaces (non-racing applications), disc brakes are kinda handy. Even for alloy rims (what I run).

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Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Power13] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:17

Post #20 of 32 (5600 views)

Power13 wrote:

gabbiev wrote:

Power13 wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Lots of good questions.

Disc brakes are kind of a speed killer for triathlon due to extra aero drag. .

November Bicycles just went into the wind tunnel to test disc brake versions of their wheels vs. a standard set-up. They haven't yet released the data, but it should be interesting to see.

Wheels or wheels mounted on bikes? Curious, is all.

I don't know what all was tested.....the only pic I saw was a wheel by itself, but I don't know if that was the totality of their testing. They may have tested them mounted on bikes, as well.

Whoops.....check that. My short-term memory must be failing.....the pic was of a full bike with disc wheels.

Note to self - get memory checked (I hope I remember this). Wink

Wink

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

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Aug 21, 14 8:18

Post #21 of 32 (5598 views)

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:33

Post #22 of 32 (5588 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

Sure, I can see that.

But for wet road and gravel surfaces (non-racing applications), disc brakes are kinda handy. Even for alloy rims (what I run).

My simple rule for determining if a disc brake may be an advantage over a rim brake:

If the use case requires a tire dramatically larger than the rim, then a disc may be an advantage under some conditions. Otherwise, the largest and simplest "disc" you can use is the braking surface of a metallic rim.

If the issue is with rim brake calipers and/or brake pads...then, that just means you've not chosen wisely ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 21, 14 8:33

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:44

Post #23 of 32 (5579 views)

Id not argue that Patek were a triumph of Style over Substance given there's so few produced and they are remarkable pieces of engineering

Disc brakes on the other hand were not invented to solve another problem, bembro's been producing them for quite a while now :)

I would say that I like both disc's and thru axles as an aesthetic, which seems to be no less valid reason than dropping 10k on a Team Sky Pinarello Dogma for a 1 millionth of a second advantage over 40k (slight exaggeration but you can see where I'm going with this)

Given I don't race, I don't change wheels very often (seriously who does) I'm under no time constraint to rush a change but I am curious as to whether it appears to be heading to a particular standard - though I accept bottom brackets, headsets and other area's have no standards so I suspect its not a concern

Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:47

Post #24 of 32 (5574 views)

Tom A. wrote:

If the issue is with rim brake calipers and/or brake pads...then, that just means you've not chosen wisely ;-)

Or, it may not be available to choose, i.e., while technically possible, it's simply not available on the market.

My experience is that salmon brake pads on alloy rims are the best braking you can get with rim brakes in wet weather. But even basic mechanical BB7s far far exceed that performance in the wet. How can I get performance equal to BB7s in the wet with products currently available on the market? A serious question.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Re: Thru Axle Standardisation and Disc on Road Bikes [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 14 8:54

Post #25 of 32 (5559 views)

I wonder if there is any way to truly make a disc brake aero? Thoughts?

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