That buddy of yours will suffer like nobody's business in the race. If he completes it I say he deserves to call himself an Ironman. More power to him.

Hear, hear!

I'm in full agreement. I think those of us with more experience lose some touch with the perspective of the beginner.

Let's not forget what this is all about. (2.4 miles + 112 miles + 26.2 miles. It hurts just contemplating it sometimes)

Anyone who does that in one day no matter how much they trained beforehand deserves some respect.

That being said, I wouldn't have too much sympathy for him when he complains for the next 2 weeks afterwards that he can barely function.

Good point. I think that changing the cutoff to some arbitrary shorter time isn't going to change the fundamental issue.
Just like in running there is a huge difference between 'being' a marathon runner and 'running a marathon' there is a huger difference between finishing an Ironman and racing one. Those in the know will always be able to tell the difference between the two.
I feel that we should let sleeping dogs lie on this one, though we could go down the road of complaining about slower people taking up slots in races that were meant for those "more worthy", but that thread has been beaten to death and isn't very productive. Besides, next thing you know someone has classified you as one of these "slower" people and you're excluded.
I did my first IM in Wisconsin last year and finished with the pack around 11:50. I did my homework and preparation and it was a very good experience. Not too sure your friend will feel the same way afterwards.
4-5hours/week and no prior race experience will equate into a major sufferfest or DNF in my book. I couldn't imagine the amount of guts it would take to tow the line in an IM with that little training and experience. Maybe he/she doesn't quite understand what they have gotten themselves into?

>>I did my homework and preparation and it was a very good experience<<

Hmmm, I did my homework and preparation and trained on average 10-16 hours week and finished in 16:50. Except for the last 10K and being ill, it was a fabulous experience. (Report can be found on this site.)

Only 4-5 hours/week is nuts. And, IMO, is doing an IM as your first ever race. Sounds like he's one of those "check it off my list of things to do" people.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Ironclm,

I am 43, after doing my first marathon in 2001 I decided I would like to do an Ironman(if you have seen my previos posts you will know that ten years ago I was a complete drug addict).I have done 2 local Tri's(run,bike kayak)I am entered in CDA. In early 2002 I acquired a stress fracture,did water execise to stay in shape. Since May of 2002 I have done 9 to 11 hrs arobic base building a week.I had to budget my money to buy a bike.I had to budget and sacrifice for me and my wife to pay for this trip.I am currently doing a training program put out by Mark Allen.This week I did a 5000yrd swim,21 mile runand 112 mile bike on seperate days.This has took a tremendous amount of time,commitment and sacrifice(is that not what IRONMAN is all about)and I hope to finish in 13 to 14(sometimes in training afraid I will not finish) hours on my best day. I do not know if I will ever have the oppertunity to put this chunk of time aside to fulfill this dream agiain. So if this is my first race and a "check this off my list of things to do" Why must this receive so much disdain or contempt that seems to be the flavor of your post. If I am incorrect please forgive.I came to this forum to learn,to have correct ettiqutte and to be clear on the rules.I am amazed at how helpful and encouraging everyone has been. If anyone chooses to do an IM and does not prepare,its like anything else in life,they will suffer the consequences of their actions. I guess I just do nor understand the people that have this disdain for those that are doing this to "check off our list".How are we so different.I wonder if you took all the people that started the goal of doing an IM as "check off my list" if their would be enough money for there to be Ironmans at all or at best being just a small elitist sport. The problem with small elitist sports is their is always someone then saying "you do not belong" and this to me does not seem to be the "Spirit of Ironman"

Thank you Ken


Also to the postby Nate "Those in the know" can tell the diference between those who race and those who go to finish. This seems rather arbitrary to me. "Racing" would seem to be one of two things,1)going for the win,or 2)racing against the clock to train and on raceday to reach the goal of a personal best,leave it all on the course. So again for those who "Race to win" leaves what.1800 of us that are not in the "know" And for those who reach the podium and on receive your applause on award night,remember there would not be much ado if us 1800 were not there.

Starting so late I will never catch up though i work just as hard.I can not make up for those years.I think the only complaint from the more gifted is this. That those of us that are slow do not take the time to learn the rules and show you the respect and consideration so not be a hinderence so you can reach your goals.If this was always the case I do not think these threads would ever come up....The same problem is everywhere...Common Courtesy! Sorry for the rant just got tired of the "Those people who do this as check this off their list"

I agree that it's not about the time, it's about going the distance. As a slow finisher, I think I have every right to call myself an ironman as someone who finished a lot faster than me. And I guess in some ways I feel like I have accomplished more. When have you ever raced for almost 17 hours? After you have finished your next ironman, try biking another 100 miles, or running another marathon. That is about the length of time it takes us to finish. I think it is awesome when someone does an ironman as fast as you have. I just don't think some of the fast athletes know what it's like to race for as long as us slow pokes.

Jeff

I agree and also I do not think they ever consider some of us slower people try and train just as hard. Hey at 17 5ft 11,1/2 and 155 I ran a 100 yrd dash in 15.1 and a mile at 5:50.I also could at 18 175lbs could hump a 100lb pack through the mountains for 30 miles(I can really talk about being elite as my accomplishments in the USMC but it was the "we are all Marines together that attracted me to it). Genetics. Also have to add this to my previous post. I could never have ever even dared try this goal without an Ironwoman.The best wife a man could have, that has sacrificed also so I could reach my goal. I may be slow but she makes me feel like superman. I should let her reply to those who critisize us who do this as a "check this off our list of goals" Afterall I could never win.But I can race ie..I try to catch the one in front and try not to let the one behind pass me.

What makes you so special having to budget and sacrifice? So do I. So do the vast majority of people I know.

Regarding the "check this off my list of things to do"--If that is you, that's your business. I personally cannot understand that mentality, but that's just me. For me, triathlon is a lifestyle, not just the next cool thing to do. Most of my friends are triathletes, my family doesn't compete, but travels to races and totally understands and supports the lifestyle.

It's great you are learning equitte and the rules and this is a great place for that. But, my question is...what exactly do the check it off people give back to the sport? (Not that all long-time triathletes give back, but most do.)

Good luck in your training.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

14 hours? That would take out nearly half of my 45-49 male age group at Lake Placid last year. It would have taken out 60% of the women in this age group.

None of us old MOPs suggest we race the distance the way you 20 odd year old kids do, but please try to lose some arrogence as you grow up.

If I am off the mark on the age, I stand corrected.

We will see how you will do when you push 50. Most of the far superior athletes I knew 30 years ago are blobs now. Give us old timers who can still smoke the vast majority of kids half our age a little bit of tolerance.

Not ready for the dust bin just yet,

Time out guys!! I really really did not mean it in the way it appears to have come out. And maybe the 14 hour limit is not the right thing to do either. I guess my question or complaint would be for those that are 30 years old, thin, all the time in the world, and they go out finish the ironman in 16 hours 59 minutes, get the tatoo and then go about there daily lives but tell everyone they meet that they did an ironman. If genetics, age or whatever limits you to a 16 hour finish but you gave it you all that is a whole completely different issue. So please, I did not mean to offend, or critisise any of you, I guess my main complaint was with my the person I spoke of...

Ken-I could tell you were not trying to diss us slow pokes. After I read my post I thought I came off a little crass. I was sort of trying to be sarcastic. So no hard feelings here.

Jeff

so there's my father..... when he was my age, he was a career guy with mortgage, kids, socking away for retirement, mowed the lawn.......

and there was my uncle funny..... lived wherever it was sunny and did whatever felt right. spent several years of his life on the big island and was THE ambassador of the 'aloha' feeling... no responsibilities, particularly not mowing the lawn.

when i was my sons age (11), my father explained to me what a bum was, and it sounded a lot like uncle funny. so on his advice, i chose the path of my father.

now..... i am my father, but i ride a p3, weigh myself every morning, and check my heart rate. but, sometimes i wonder if my uncle funny is the one who had things figured out (the king of simplicity). i worked very had for ironman status, and i am always thinking and spending trying to shave more minutes off. as soon as i get out of this dang 30-34 age group, i might have a shot at my own little aloha love.

but, i hear about these guys coming in and doing an ironman in their first season on a borrowed bike and one pair of shoes.... first reaction is a bad one.... mad. and then i start to wonder, especially hearing the back & forth in threads like this one.... does this guys buddy have things figured out?

finally, i remind myself that i don't care... i do this for myself, and i'm thankful for the collective group of people with a similar goal, and the volunteers that help make it possible to do this.

the interesting thing is that my uncle was always happy to have anyone over to his place and let them eat his food.... my father would grumble when u.f. showed up, and would go out and mow the lawn or something.

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It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I managed to squeeze in 8 hours of TV a day - Homer Simpson

I think the issue is more basic than what has been portrayed. It's not about how fast you are and what your time is. Correct me if I am wrong, Ken and Ironclm, but what I think you guys are saying is that this individual, in your opinion, does not respect the race. An ironman is not just something that you casually decide to do, pay your fee, train a bit and then see if you can finish. Clearly many people have the capacity to do this and finish. Good for them. For many of us, however, it is not paying respect to the race, and certainly not the spirit of ironman.

I think Art is a perfect example of my point. While I have never met him - only read his posts avidly and sometimes reply back - he clearly respects the race. His time is irrelevant to me. He races the IM; he prepares for IM; and he clearly knows what it is to suffer an IM. You will also never, ever once hear him brag about his performance, while to many of us his peformance is fantastic. He can whip me on the swim and run and is 10 years my senior.

We all have definitive opinions about an ironman and of course we cannot all agree on the same point. I think all Ken and Ironclm are showing us is that they, like me, hold ironman on a very rarified plane. I cannot express how choked up I get simply watching ironman on TV. I also get choked up when I finish a very tough race in a strong fashion. I am not an emotional guy, yet I cried after hitting a new PR last October in a 1/2 IM. Yea, maybe this sounds sappy, but triathlon for many of us is a lifestyle, not just an accomplishment.

And for the poster battling back from a drug addiction, good on you man. I don't think Ken was slamming you or what you are doing. In my eyes, you have already done ironman. You showed the same committment it takes to do an ironman. My bet is that you stay in the sport and it becomes your lifestyle. I wish you great success at your upcoming IM.

Robert

Very nicely said Robert.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Well said Robert. Thank You. Next time I try to communicate a point I will send it you first for proof reading:)

Thanks Again

Attempting an Ironman with 4-5 hours training a week and as a first triathlon is irresponsible and crazy. This is not an issue of elitism but of health and safety. With insurance costs driving entry fees ever higher these reckless or naive people are impacting costs for everyone. There needs to be some sort of entry level and proof of ability to attempt an Ironman. This does not mean setting a 14 hour time limit or whatever, just a way to show that you have done the needed preparation to do the race safely. The people like Kenny who objected to the "elitists" seem to be putting in the work.

Qualifications exist for certain races. For example the NYC Tri which includes a Hudson River swim requires certification of swimming proficiency.

Would anyone actually think they could do an Ironman on 4-5 hours a week?

Thank you for the very kind words Robert.

Nothing makes me special, thats my point.If I am doing the same as you,why are you showing disdain!!What do I give back to the sport? Its your lifestyle? Big Deal. Your reply is with an attitude and that is what I do not understand. What are you giving back to the "SPORT"You say you do not understand the people that do it as something to check off their list,OK but if we are doing the same as YOU in time and commitmint why not encourage.Truly I do not understand. You say its your lifestlye,do you mean to embrace the sport and help and encourage or do mean to be apart of a special elite group that is different than those"posers" Is that giving back to the sport. Mz.Morgan if I seem to have an attitude,I apologze.That s not haw I desire to come across,but back to your reply,If people like me are doing the same thing as you and all the other "racers"why the disdain.

Mz. Morgan

I apologize and ask your forgiveness. I just read Roberts post and your reply and feel very humbled.Obviously I had incorrect assumptions by seeing your reply.Ironman is like life(that is the attraction to me,maybe what you call lifestyle)you get out what you put in.If you can do one with 5hrs training a week you will never receive what those of us do that put in more. Again Mz Morgan,I was wrong and ask you forgiveness.

Please understand us slow people's perspective. EX: There was a post on if you can completet an IM without doing any running training due to injury.A gentlemans reply was he did the run in 3:30 with only one run above 1 and 1/2 hrs I believe,just biked a lot in training. In my dreams with all the tempo and fartlek runs I could never do that.Stand alone marathon maybe. The point s this,on the course I do not know who He is and who the one who worked hard is.All I know is the majority of the people are passing me.WE all say its about doing our best,then why do we keep track of were we finish. It is hard to put the competitive juices aside. A woman I know is doing CDA.She has asthma.She twice did not finish IM's. She is determined to finish CDA. There is no way I would have the courage to go through all that training a third time. Thats perseverence,thats Ironman,Thats lifestyle.She hopes to finish between 16 and 17. It is on her check list. I hope she gets it. Again SORRY Mz Morgan

I once challenged the notion of someone doing an IM as their first triathlon and got taken to task for doing so. My point then was that the experience could become so potentially noxious it would be one and done. As was clearly pointed out to me, that's not my call. Having got some distance from it now I think that's correct.

I place a high value on the relationships I have in the IM community. As a rule they rule as decent human beings. Bonds have developed that are priceless. We ascribe a meaning to IM that goes well beyond crossing some finish line. I thinks its natural to get defensive if some how we percieve that value is being minimized. I don't know about the rest of the group but I prefer not to talk casually about IM. My pat line, when pressed a little, is often, "It's just a long day." I'm not trying to be rude. It's just going to take awhile for me to unpack the meaning. Most, I've found, when they are asking about IM, don't have the time or interest to really listen. No sweat, we'll part in peace. Jesus once said, "Don't cast your pearls before swine." It's hyperbole, clearly to make a point. There are people who will trample what you consider priceless, be careful who you share your treasure with. Off the philosophical soap box :).

IM requires a certain price to be paid. If the guy wants to pay that price in one huge outlay on race-day, I've decided I'll pull for him even though I think he's nuts.

Hey Kenney,

No worries!! Hard to get little nuances in language and intent across when using email/internet. All is cool.

And, I'll let you in on a little secret....I'm not one of the fast ones. I'm slow. Sure, I'm trying to get faster. And, I didn't finish my first IM attempt (May 2000). Was throwing up on the bike and ended up at the medical tent at mile 93 of the bike. Attempt number 2 was later that summer (August 2000). DNF in 97F degree weather and the beginnings of heat illness. Attempt number 3 (March 2001 in New Zealand)--I finally finished after 16 hours and 50 minutes. That was sweet. I crossed the line and thought I'd never have to do it (IM, not shorter tris) again. The next morning at breakfast, I was thinking of what I needed to do to go faster. Attempt number 4 (2002 IM NZ)--fell and injured my back 4 days before the race. Started the race, but back was killing me and dropped out on the bike. Attempt number 5 (2002 Ultramax)--again sick on the bike. Attempt number 6 (2003 IM NZ)--never even made it to the starting line due to medical issues and then an auto accident. But, I'll be toeing the line again in September. Call me persistent, hard-headed or stupid. All I know is I'll keep toeing the start line until they won't let me.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Wow, Cathy. That's awesome. Having just come off my first DNF at Wildflower, it's reassuring to hear about others who have faced adversity in their racing. I've tried to keep a good attitude about it, but doubts creep in nonetheless.

Thanks for being so frank. It's still early, with lots of racing still to go in 2003 and hearing how you bounced back from your DNFs is really helpful.

;-)

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Adam Duncan
New York, NY

Hey Kathy,Awesome and THANK YOU!!! It gave me needed encouragement. Lately after my long workouts I have had doubts if I can make it. You ain't no quitter,Thats IM... I will keep you posteed in how I am doing. Hopefully we will meet at a race. Thanks again..Its funny,it kind of shows how involved eveyone is.You always care most about things you have the most of your time and self vested in. That is something the person training only 5hrs will never understand....Thanks Again...Ken Cottrell

Thanks Adam and Kenney.

And Kenney, EVERYONE has doubts before their first IM! That is so normal. If you haven't read the book "Becoming An Ironman", I highly suggest it. Great stories of many people's first IM--fast, slow, young, old, etc.

Definitely keep us posted.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com