This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me

May 5, 15 19:51

Post #1 of 27 (4761 views)

I know there are a million of these threads, but I don't have time to look through everything and I'm more interested in getting some advice for my specific situation.

I got a 920XT a couple months back and have been using the heart rate monitor during 99% of my workouts on the bike and run since then. I don't have much of a problem on the bike but the run is a whole other story.

I am by no means a fast run, nor would I say that I am in great running shape right now. But what confuses me when I try to use the heart rate monitor, and the corresponding zones the watch has set up, is that it doesn't always match my RPE. For instance I just went out with the goal of running 30 mins in Z2 for some recovery. To achieve that I had to average 13:40/mile. I felt like I was barely moving and it just felt like a waste of time. As contrast, this past Sunday I ran 10K at 9:34 and spent 45/60 mins in Z4. There were times where I thought I was definitely pushing it a bit, but times where I felt comfortable and relaxed; not like I was pushing near my limit.

I don't think the monitor or watch is recording anything incorrectly. Is it possible I just have a high heart rate and need to adjust the watches zones accordingly? Should I forgo the HRM and just go based off RPE? I'm really not sure how to use it going forward to progress.

As some background...I'm in my 7th season and I slowly worked my way up to my first IM in 2014. I have never been all that fast, more MOP for Sprint and Oly, more BOP for 70.3 and 140.6. I've always struggled with consistent training but I've gotten a lot better since the IM. The past winter I had my best, most consistent off season. It pales in comparison to must, but was a lot better than what I normally do. I'm 27 and for the last 2-3 seasons have been 20-25lbs over what I'd like to be and what my weight was at my first 70.3 in 2011.

I have a feeling the weight is adding to the high heart rate but I thought it would have improved through the off season and it doesn't really seem to have changed all that much and almost has me worried that I need to see a doctor to check it out. Do I just need to continue with mostly aerobic work until my heart rate starts coming down before really focusing on going fast?

Feel free to peruse my Strava

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 5, 15 19:56

Post #2 of 27 (4751 views)

have you done an FTP test for bike and run?

If no then do so.

Establish your FT, and corresponding HR, and calculate from there. Do not use pre-set values or approximations.. calculate the zones and enter them on the watch...

If you are seeing rapid impreovement suggest re -test and re set after 3 months

Similar for the bike if you have power measurement... but obviously in watts

Its normal for bike and run RPE to be different for the same HR....

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 5, 15 20:43

Post #3 of 27 (4695 views)

How did you establish your HR zones for running?

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 5, 15 21:04

Post #4 of 27 (4679 views)

everyone is different.

heart rate is something that takes a lot of consistent time to sort out.

you can use different formulas to find heart rate zones. they are all over the net. use them as a guide to start.

when you run go by perceived effort or ( or known reliable paces). and check your heart rate periodically.

over time you will learn what effort coincides with what heart rate zone.

after several years I can pretty much tell you what my heart rate is based on effort or pace. If the weather is hot or i am feeling tired or run down I will use heart rate to limit my workout.

with no experience, using a formula to create your zones then trying to use them to dictate workouts will be a waste of time.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 4:22

Post #5 of 27 (4589 views)

As others have suggested, the First thing you need to do is establish your heart rate zones. Your zones are probably going to be different for the bike and run. Mine are different by about 11 beats with the run being higher. Depending upon what kind of shape you're in ZR will be very frustrating in the early stages. You'll often have to insert walks in order to stay in respective zone. Once your aerobic engine starts to become more efficient thst will improve. The other thing you may want to do is simplify your zones. Once you get to the upper levels of intensity (Ex. Vo2 work / some FTP work) heart rate becomes less effective as a guide.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 4:30

Post #6 of 27 (4575 views)

Heart high?
Try some one else's gear to test your own HR first...establish your is either wrong or accurate

Find a college near by with a sport department and ask for a ramp test to establish accurately your HR zones and max hr

Make sure r using a cotton shirt when running

age is just a number after your name

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [shadwell] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 4:39

Post #7 of 27 (4564 views)

shadwell wrote:

Do not use pre-set values or approximations

This...my guess is you're using the pre-set zones. The 920XT has a function that gives you your lactate threshold HR. All you have to do is a nice and easy warm-up followed by 20 minutes hard...the watch will use your pace and heart rate for that 20 minute effort and provide you a lactate threshold and VO2 max value. Use this information to set your zones.

The 920XT makes it real easy for you :)

If after doing all of that you are still having problems you may have to do some troubleshooting.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 5:22

Post #8 of 27 (4511 views)

To be honest, your description of what it "feels" like for those zones seems pretty accurate. Recovery is slow, so slow it can be frustrating. Example: I run a 6min/mile pace for my 5k, my recovery runs are done at 9:30 mile pace depending on terrain, sometimes slower/faster when going uphill/downhill. It took me a long time to realize that it was supposed to be that way :)

I do agree that you should take a day and set your own zones. Just don't be surprised if they are not that much different than what your watch did for you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that heart rate is a delayed reaction to effort. That's why it may feel easier or harder at certain times when training or racing with heart rate because it just hasn't caught up to you yet.

Good luck with your training!

Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
Swift^3

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 5:37

Post #9 of 27 (4487 views)

The unfit HR rises quickly at low effort while the fit HR will be lower with lower intensities. Also I've found that when I put on weight (life long struggle for me) my easy / recovery HR is affected immediately so the pace has to slow down to accommodate it.

Was your 10k a race? Do a 5k or 10k race and use the last 15-20 minute average HR as your LT HR. Then plug that into this calculator to get your zones http://mtbcoach.com/zonecalc/

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 5:50

Post #10 of 27 (4467 views)

I'll also bet you're using the preset zones.

If you ran your 10k and felt 'comfortable and relaxed', you clearly didn't go anywhere near hard enough even to establish a HRmax.

Look up field testing for HR zones, and do not use the preprogrammed Garmin ones.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [Givingchase] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 7:53

Post #11 of 27 (4360 views)

Givingchase wrote:

To be honest, your description of what it "feels" like for those zones seems pretty accurate. Recovery is slow, so slow it can be frustrating. Example: I run a 6min/mile pace for my 5k, my recovery runs are done at 9:30 mile pace depending on terrain, sometimes slower/faster when going uphill/downhill. It took me a long time to realize that it was supposed to be that way :)

I do agree that you should take a day and set your own zones. Just don't be surprised if they are not that much different than what your watch did for you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that heart rate is a delayed reaction to effort. That's why it may feel easier or harder at certain times when training or racing with heart rate because it just hasn't caught up to you yet.

Good luck with your training!

+1 on everything, especially that Z2 running feels excruciatingly slow.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

ScottWrigleyFit

May 6, 15 8:31

Post #12 of 27 (4312 views)

Another +1 on the fact that it sounds as if you are utilizing preset zones. If you are going to use heart rate, you need to do a test to set up your zones specific to your current fitness level.

That said, I would suggest training by pace instead of heart rate. Use a recent stand alone running race (or do a test if no recent race) and use Daniels VDOT tables to set your training paces from there.

"Just don�t abandon everything you�ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [ScottWrigleyFit] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 8:35

Post #13 of 27 (4299 views)

What's your opinion on HR vs VDOT for pacing when running in an undulating area?
I usually run to HR but it's pretty difficult and my pace can vary wildly, as >10% gradients are commonplace in some sections.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [Liaman] [ In reply to ]

ScottWrigleyFit

May 6, 15 8:58

Post #14 of 27 (4257 views)

I still use pace instead of HR. I have athletes train output instead of input. You want to finish a race in X time, you train to be able to do so. HR can vary wildly based on a number of things such as sleep, caffeine, fatigue level, weather, course, etc.

Planning for hills in a race depends on race circumstances such as number of hills, gradient, hill distance, race distance, your position, etc. For example an elite runner may need to hang with the pack to stay relevant in the race.

However, as a basic rule I generally tell runners to run the hill at the same effort level as running race pace before the hill. Keeping pace up hills is a great way to burn up and bonk in spectacular fashion.

One of the best parts of training by pace is that runners learn what varying effort levels feel like (reps, VO2Max, Threshold, Marathon, Easy, etc.) Whatever your race pace, focus on keeping that same effort level on the hill. In a race with short hills with a shallow gradient you might keep race pace. In some races the gradient may be so extreme you may end up power hiking.

"Just don�t abandon everything you�ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 9:14

Post #15 of 27 (4235 views)

I've also been told that peple who are self coached generally tend to:
1. Go too hard for their "easy" sessions
2. Too easy for their harder sessions

If you really want to push your HR to it's max do some 1.6KM/1Mile speed sets and literally go "ALL OUT BALLS TO THE WALL" so you can't go another meter without a short rest. That's what "hard" sessions are all about IMO.

I've been guilty of going too hard for easy sessions and extremely too hard for hard sessions. Setting up zones and being strict enough to stay within them will reap the greatest returns but step one is defining those zones and testing to establish them.

Good luck!

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [ScottWrigleyFit] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 9:18

Post #16 of 27 (4228 views)

ScottWrigleyFit wrote:

I still use pace instead of HR. I have athletes train output instead of input. You want to finish a race in X time, you train to be able to do so. HR can vary wildly based on a number of things such as sleep, caffeine, fatigue level, weather, course, etc.

Planning for hills in a race depends on race circumstances such as number of hills, gradient, hill distance, race distance, your position, etc. For example an elite runner may need to hang with the pack to stay relevant in the race.

However, as a basic rule I generally tell runners to run the hill at the same effort level as running race pace before the hill. Keeping pace up hills is a great way to burn up and bonk in spectacular fashion.

One of the best parts of training by pace is that runners learn what varying effort levels feel like (reps, VO2Max, Threshold, Marathon, Easy, etc.) Whatever your race pace, focus on keeping that same effort level on the hill. In a race with short hills with a shallow gradient you might keep race pace. In some races the gradient may be so extreme you may end up power hiking.

+1 on the lack of reliability using HR in training.

Does it provide you some feedback on your effort? YES

Does it change day to day given your sleep, stress (training stress and metal/life stress), nutrient timing, hydration levels, medications etc... YES

I use VdOT paces a lot more than HR when training runners. Much more reliable in my opinion.

Also, I take away my athletes electronics for two weeks during their build phase because we have all see the athelte who is curled up in a ball crying on the side of the road because their almighty Garmin crapped out half waythrough the event and they have no clue how to race without it.

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [karma] [ In reply to ]

ScottWrigleyFit

May 6, 15 9:27

Post #17 of 27 (4210 views)

karma wrote:

ScottWrigleyFit wrote:

I still use pace instead of HR. I have athletes train output instead of input. You want to finish a race in X time, you train to be able to do so. HR can vary wildly based on a number of things such as sleep, caffeine, fatigue level, weather, course, etc.

Planning for hills in a race depends on race circumstances such as number of hills, gradient, hill distance, race distance, your position, etc. For example an elite runner may need to hang with the pack to stay relevant in the race.

However, as a basic rule I generally tell runners to run the hill at the same effort level as running race pace before the hill. Keeping pace up hills is a great way to burn up and bonk in spectacular fashion.

One of the best parts of training by pace is that runners learn what varying effort levels feel like (reps, VO2Max, Threshold, Marathon, Easy, etc.) Whatever your race pace, focus on keeping that same effort level on the hill. In a race with short hills with a shallow gradient you might keep race pace. In some races the gradient may be so extreme you may end up power hiking.

+1 on the lack of reliability using HR in training.

Does it provide you some feedback on your effort? YES

Does it change day to day given your sleep, stress (training stress and metal/life stress), nutrient timing, hydration levels, medications etc... YES

I use VdOT paces a lot more than HR when training runners. Much more reliable in my opinion.

Also, I take away my athletes electronics for two weeks during their build phase because we have all see the athelte who is curled up in a ball crying on the side of the road because their almighty Garmin crapped out half waythrough the event and they have no clue how to race without it.

Love this. I am of the same opinion. I like the idea of doing it for a solid block of time. Up to this point I generally like to do it weekly in each sport.

Leave the swim watch at home if they have one at least one session a week and use a pace clock and feel. Cover up the cycling computer or run watch so they can't look at it but we can analyze their pace by feel vs actual pacing after the session.

"Just don�t abandon everything you�ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 9:30

Post #18 of 27 (4205 views)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I decided to do a test this morning as I felt decently rested. I used the Friel method for the test. My average for the final 20mins of the 30min TT was 176. So I think I'm going to use that as my base for the HR zones on the watch and set them up according to his table. I'm hoping that will help.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 9:30

Post #19 of 27 (4203 views)

Similar for me, I mostly use pace but look at heart rate and take that into consideration

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [badgertri] [ In reply to ]

May 6, 15 9:33

Post #20 of 27 (4201 views)

Where is this function in the watch? From what I understood the watch will automatically set your zones after using it a few times based off your workouts, but that it will base it off your max heart rate. My watch right now is set up with a max HR of 194. Friel's method seems to base it off a lower number and then a much narrower range for each zone compared to the 10% range on the 920XT.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 15 5:51

Post #21 of 27 (4031 views)

According to Friel's method, am I supposed to use the LTHR from the run test to set my zones for both running and cycling? Or do I do individual tests for each?

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 15 5:53

Post #22 of 27 (4027 views)

I just go run. No gadgets. (I do wear a watch) If you run, swim or bike enough, most things will take care of themselves.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 15 5:56

Post #23 of 27 (4020 views)

How does this help me at all? Doesn't even come close to what I was asking about.

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [teichs42] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 15 6:04

Post #24 of 27 (4006 views)

teichs42 wrote:

According to Friel's method, am I supposed to use the LTHR from the run test to set my zones for both running and cycling? Or do I do individual tests for each?

Separate tests done on separate days for each discipline. Expect your HR zones to be higher on the run than on the bike. Retest every 4-8 weeks during a recovery week, according to Friel's method.

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: This heart rate training is confusing the crap out of me [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 15 6:20

Post #25 of 27 (3990 views)

awesome, thank you! i had a feeling that was it, just wanted to make sure

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