Who's buying into it? Is anybody making frames from ti anymore? I haven't seen a mainstream ti bike in quite a few years ... precisely for the reasons you state.

If Ti frames are expensive, it's due to economies of scale. If a Ti frame maker can sell just 1/10th the number of frames compared to a carbon frame building, their costs per frame are going to be higher.

-David

ITT-

One person who understands basic economics and 2 people who have never ridden a titanium bike.

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

You can't crank out Ti frames from molds in Chinese factories by the hundreds daily. So therefore, they cost more to make.

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float , hammer , and jog

Also the cost of Titanium, the raw material, can be quite high.

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Ian

In in the extremes, it is the difference b/t a hand-made, hand-craft bike (Ti) and a mass-produced, open mold plastic bike. Plus the Ti will last forever.

But, overall, define "crazy premium." My Litespeed Saber frame was $2,100. My Specialized Transition frame was (IIRC) $2,200. A Speed Concept 9 frame is $4,000.

As far as Al vs. Ti - dude, you need to ride both to figure that one out. That is not a knock on Al, which is still a fantastic bike material, but, it hardly compares to Ti (or steel, for that matter). There are a couple threads on Ti - ride, etc. So, I will not repeat everything here.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

there is some perception that it is more comfortable
tube diameters are smaller than aluminum, so more aerodynamic. usually lighter than steel frames unless the steel frame is just as expensive.

pretty when unpainted.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

JSA - carbon lasts as forever as titanium does, and carbon is built by hand too. It certainly irks me that when asian hands build a bike it is considered mass produced but if an anglo builds a bike it is art.

=)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

A lot of it has to do with the fact that a good titanium frame will last pretty-much forever. It's much more durable that carbon fiber (think impact damage), and you can easily buff out minor scuffs/scratches with a Scotchbrite pad. Heck, spend a few hours buffing your 10yr old titanium frame, throw new decals on, and you're back to new.

Then, there's the reported vibration damping characteristics of titanium. Yes, frame geometry, tire pressure, etc. etc. all affect this. But, the fact remains that there is a belief, especially among those that ride titanium, that the damping characteristics of the material are excellent for a bicycle frame. That's it's big appeal over aluminum.

I'd LOVE to have a titanium frame. But, they're just out of my budget range for a road bike and there's not a real contender for the truly aero bikes in aerodynamics for a tri bike.

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Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Hmmmmm. I have had to replace 3 carbon frames, but, never had a failure with my two Ti frames. I must be doing something wrong. Maybe I am just too powerful for plastic! ;-p

Regarding "built by hand" - come on, Jack. There are "hand made" carbon bikes and then there are carbon bike made by hands feeding resin and thread into machines (regardless of the nationality of those hands). ;-0 But, Ti bikes cannot be cranked out in mass-production fashion.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don't think any bike company has a carbon weaving machine like lexus. The cutting may be mechanized but asian hands will still be laying it up I believe.

welding mass produced tubes together doesn't seem substantively different =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I've owned bikes made of Al, Ti, Steel and Carbon. I'd actually say that so far the smoothest ride was steel, but to be fair both the carbon and Ti are tri bikes which throws the comparison off a bit. My race bike for triathlon is Ti and despite it's relative non-aeroness, it's a great ride. Smooth, very stiff and just has solid feel. For the same price I could have picked up one of the new super bikes, but I'm happy with my choice.

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-Andrew

You and I both know if Cervelo made a Ti bike, you would change your tune ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

We have owned a Ti bike before, a quintana roo.
It was nice.

My bikes are mass produced aluminium, nothing cool about them at all! (for now!)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

What?!
The only difference in building bikes out of Ti and building bikes out of AL or Steel is that the TI is required to be fully separated from oxygen when welded. Since industrial applications utilize either welding boxes or sealed rooms filled with inert gases, this is not as big an issue as you might think.

For all other opertions, Ti works the same as Steel, machining, forging, cutting, etc.

For that matter, Titanium does "rust". Only it happens almost immediately, the "rust" or oxide is very thin, and is harder than the base metal. Titanium Dioxide also happens to be a common pigment for painters: Titanium White.

I assure you that manufacturers mass produce titanium products everyday that are more complex than a bike frame.

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Punching cockroaches from day 1.

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http://www.tri-junkie.com/

The Chinese have not yet been able to get children proficient in welding titanium.

Ti is an amazing ride. The bike absorbs the road, yet is stiff and compliant. I have owned alum, steel and carbon bikes as well and for me my Ti bikes are my favorite by far. I also like the fact that when I show up to race my bike is unique and doesn't look like every other carbon bike in T1.

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Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

What a bunch of hooey.

(proud owner of a 1995 Serotta titanium road bike)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Until you crash. Now obviously nothing is indestructible but I like the Ti frame's chances a whole lot better n that situation.

is that universally true or does it depend on the design of the respective titanium and carbon bikes?

what if the bikes were of equal weight? =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

lol win.

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-Jason
______________________________________________
Is that all you've got? Are you sure?

If I'm betting my own money on it, yeah, it's universally true.

i would buy a ti version of the cervelo p3sl

not if you saw the price tag

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter