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The problem with Landis' accusation
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i've done a lot of reporting on the process of drug testing, drug labs, the protocols and whatnot, and i've interviewed ad nauseum, at length, officials at USADA, WADA, and various lab managers such as the now retired don catlin at the largest worldwide WADA-approved lab at UCLA.

perhaps the most explosive of landis' accusations is that lance and johann paid the UCI to cover up a drug positive. the problem i have with this is the protocol followed by a drug lab. upon returning a positive test, a WADA lab (there are only three dozen around the world) informs three entities at the same time: the IF (the UCI in this case); the testing authority (which may also be the IF, or, it may not, depending on who ordered and paid for the test); and WADA.

so, not only the UCI would have to be in on this, so would WADA. and, really, so would the lab, presumably, because the lab would know that its positive test is being hushed.

the reason WADA is able to release stats each year detailing how many adverse findings occur, per sport, per lab, is that WADA routinely, by protocol, receives notice of these adverse findings concurrently with the testing authority and the IF.

so, for landis' accusation to ring true, not only would the UCI have to have agreed to this payoff, both the UCI and bruyneel/armstrong would have to count on severe ineptitude by both the testing lab and WADA, each of which would also know about the positive. even if you grant that such ineptitude might exist, it's unimaginable that you could rely upon it, esp when a paper trail would be there for anyone to follow.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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You made an error in the reporting structure.
L' Equipe typically informs everyone else first that there is a positive test then the UCI, WADA.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: May 21, 10 8:34
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Joe Papp stated that the drug labs, testers, uci, etc were all a bunch of mafia type enforcers who could be bribed. I don't think it is that far of a stretch. It is also well documented about Armstrongs 'donation' that once he knew nothing about, another time he said was no more than 5-10k, and turned out to be one hundred thousand dollars.

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Last edited by: msuguy512: May 21, 10 8:46
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Given the amount of cover up occurring in Euro soccer, I really don't see what is so hard to imagine here...
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

Agreed.

I am not sure what Landis was/is attempting to do here. He seems like a desperate man, driven to do desperate things. As Armstrong hinted at yesterday in his remarks, he had best seek some professional help.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't that what McGwire said about Canseco?
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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It is also well documented about Armstrongs 'donation' that once he knew nothing about, another time he said was no more than 5-10k, and turned out to be hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I believe it was $100,000 and that certainly has many people raising their eyebrows. Why would an athlete donate such a large amount in the first place and then, how could he not know how much he donated.

That kind of money (and I would assume it's a lot more but maybe not directly tied to Lance), can certainly make existing protocols obsolete or at a minimum, come into question.





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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What I understand from people who were associated with Landis, he has been telling this story for a while. Floyd mentioned a statute of limitations on Doping offenses which, if I'm not mistaken, is 8 years. This is why he supposedly came forward with this now in order to implicate others still riding. This Statute of Limitations was why Eric Zabel and some others who rode for Telekom/T-mobile were able to continue riding after they admitted EPO use. Unfortunately, Floyd seems to have have mixed things up and forgot that Lance did not ride the TdS in 2002.

Also, realistically, the French anti-doping labs have been after Lance since most likely his first win and most definitely after it was revealed he had associations with Ferrari. If there would have been a positive test anywhere, someone would have spoken up a long, long time ago.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think this was ever denied by Armstrong. His donations to the UCI have been well documented and public knowledge for several years.



Heath Dotson
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I am pretty sure the positive test he is referring to was well before 2002, 2002 is just when landis and armstrong spoke about it. Landis also says that lance no longer used epo because he could get caught and used transfusions instead. Transfusions will not cause a positive test so just because he has not tested positive recently does not mean much. He is probably still using testosterone though which is why he needs to hide out for an hour and prepare himself when drug testers arrive.

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think this was ever denied by Armstrong. His donations to the UCI have been well documented and public knowledge for several years.

I know he admitted it but at first he said it was about $5 - $10K, attempting to downplay the significant amount, which is what raised eyebrows. I have no idea but do you know if other top cyclists donate to the UCI, while competing?
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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When he initially 'made' the donation he at first denied it. Wasn't it 500,000?

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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Landis specifically said that it was the 2002 TdS. Look I'm not defending Armstrong. I just think the major problem with Floyd's accusations have to do with a skewed time line and an absolute lack of any proof whatsoever. He may indeed have some but has not released it as of yet.

Let's not forget that Floyd still contends that he won the Tour clean. However, he also admits that he cheated right up until that point. Really? That doesn't sound credible to me.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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That was a number that I heard too.. But I couldn't put my finger on anything concrete showing that.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Landis specifically said that it was the 2002 TdS. Look I'm not defending Armstrong. I just think the major problem with Floyd's accusations have to do with a skewed time line and an absolute lack of any proof whatsoever. He may indeed have some but has not released it as of yet.

If Lance's best defense is going to be that he was off on the year, Lance is in big trouble. I wish Lance would stop trying to skirt the accusations by talking about "credibility" and instead address each issue on its own. Landis was very specific about places/conversations/people so Lance should be able to do the same.

Let's not forget that Floyd still contends that he won the Tour clean. However, he also admits that he cheated right up until that point. Really? That doesn't sound credible to me.

But do his actual accusations sound credible? Is his knowledge of the drugs used and how they were administered sound credible? If those made no sense I would agree with you but there is too much focus on the peripheral stuff and no one is actually addressing the accusations directly.

That's what is giving Landis the most credibility in my eyes.
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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From what transpired, I am not sure he said he won the Tour clean. He said the test was wrong. That could well mean he didn't take testosterone, but was on EPO.
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan - your perspective on this makes perfect sense to me.

Dave in VA
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Protocol is only that. Money can make any process change.

On another note Austin Murphy from si.com made one of the best points on the subject. He asked... since it seems that nearly everyone that Lance was beating was using drugs how can any reasonable person think a clean person would beat every other world class doping rider 7 times in the TDF...

So according to that thought process he is either truly superhuman or a liar...
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [coloradotri] [ In reply to ]
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The point that Austin Murphy makes is the same one that almost everyone else seems to make. The problem is that without a positive test or someone with proof comes forward there is no way to prove that fact.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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To quote an oft used phrase among the two of us, "There's the way things ought to be, and the way things are." I think you're assuming that the way positives ought to be (or are supposed to be) handled is the way they are handled. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that's not the case.

Of course, I have no love for WADA either. Propecia (generic finasteride) was put on the banned list as a masking agent because of ONE German study with FIVE participants. FIVE. Zach Lund - the defending skeleton world champ at the time - lost his slot to the 2006 Olympics as a result. Of course, it was his fault for not checking the list. But seriously, that is hardly a reliable reason to add a product to the list. There are also numerous allegations from reputable scientists that many of the WADA tests are not nearly as accurate as they claim. WADA is enough of a "witchhunter" that I don't think they could be bribed. But the UCI - and more specifically a lab? Definitely, IMO.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
so, not only the UCI would have to be in on this, so would WADA. and, really, so would the lab, presumably, because the lab would know that its positive test is being hushed.

the reason WADA is able to release stats each year detailing how many adverse findings occur, per sport, per lab, is that WADA routinely, by protocol, receives notice of these adverse findings concurrently with the testing authority and the IF.


Does WADA receive the details of each positive test: athlete, time/place, offending substance, etc?

Is it in WADA's job description to release said details to the public, or to follow up on a positive test to discern what disciplinary action was taken?

Isn't it such that the lab itself doesn't know whose samples are whose, so the lab really only knows that a sample tested positive? The lab can't, in fact, know whether a particular positive test is being hushed?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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When he initially 'made' the donation he at first denied it. Wasn't it 500,000?

I stand corrected, it was a $500,000 donation.

It's perfectly understandable how he forget about that.
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Let's not forget that Floyd still contends that he won the Tour clean. However, he also admits that he cheated right up until that point. Really? That doesn't sound credible to me.

In the court of public opinion and in real courts, credibility is key. I don't know how, Landis can be taken seriously when there have been such massive swings in what he has to say. Look, I am not defending the others, it's just that you look silly and are not taken seriously by anyone, if you keep changing your story or keep coming up with hair-brained ideas of what went on, that don't jive with anyone elses story.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Well ex-cyclist I want you and anybody else that shares that thought on my jury if I ever do something really bad. To me people are in one of two categories:

1. They have looked at all the information available to us and used the reasoning skills they have and come up with the conclusion that Lance used drugs.

2. They have acted almost like defense attorney's of a guilty client. Trying to poke holes in any info that comes out... Lab protocol, no extra blood samples, Lance's denial/ character attacks on those accusing him, etc...


I consider myself fairly reasonable, have always cheered for Lance and my god would love to believe that he really is a superhuman that beat all the other top riders clean while they were doping but come on connect the dots, take your head out of the sand and use some common sense...
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Re: The problem with Landis' accusation [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Landis specifically said that it was the 2002 TdS. Look I'm not defending Armstrong. I just think the major problem with Floyd's accusations have to do with a skewed time line and an absolute lack of any proof whatsoever. He may indeed have some but has not released it as of yet.

If Lance's best defense is going to be that he was off on the year, Lance is in big trouble. I wish Lance would stop trying to skirt the accusations by talking about "credibility" and instead address each issue on its own. Landis was very specific about places/conversations/people so Lance should be able to do the same.

Let's not forget that Floyd still contends that he won the Tour clean. However, he also admits that he cheated right up until that point. Really? That doesn't sound credible to me.

But do his actual accusations sound credible? Is his knowledge of the drugs used and how they were administered sound credible? If those made no sense I would agree with you but there is too much focus on the peripheral stuff and no one is actually addressing the accusations directly.

That's what is giving Landis the most credibility in my eyes.


Being off one year is enough to establish reasonable doubt.

If you want to know about how to use drugs in cycling go to a forum or pick up a magazine. I could tell you exactly how it is done and I've never given blood let alone taken a transfusion.

Landis was very specific about places/conversations/etc and everyone involved says they did not happen. It is up to Landis to prove that they did. If he truly kept a diary of every time he doped it would be easy enough to provide all those diaries to the appropriate authorities. I would assume that they are hand written and dated. If he kept them on his computer the files would be time stamped and would help to validate his stories.

Hate Lance or not, at this point it is up to Landis to prove what he says.

Personally, his credibility has been seriously dented by the attempts to extort people in the cycling community.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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