I think this article- will show you that Bruyneel and the UCI have their own system, their own rules... and as Rappstar says- there's what happens and what ought to happens. Take the 5 minutes to read- and you might have a better understanding of how the UCI works with their riders and some of the directors. It is very mafia-esque.

LINK

Team Radio Shack has posted a series of private emails (mentioned many times) and you can read them yourself here: http://www.livestrong.com/...-doping-allegations/

Good reads.

to me, it's a badly crafted article with a lot of whining, and nobody talking on the record. the parallel system, with their own rules, has been explained by bruyneel as a system that catches dopers even when the anti doping agencies can't. does it really work this way? i don't know. if i understand you, you seem to think it's a sham and whitewash that has the patina of enforcement, but that allows riders to take drugs and avoid scrutiny. maybe you're right. i don't know. but the link you provided illustrates nothing (to me).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the article would be a little better if the translation of it was better. Where's your source that mentions Bruyneel explaining the above? I'd sincerely like to read it, to see what he had to say about it firsthand. I don't know what to believe about the article I referenced- but it is very interesting that the following LA TdF teammates admitted doping or tested postive- but were on another team or just didn't get caught at the time. And a bunch more of his TdF teammates (not listed below) have circumstantial evidence against them about doping usage. Seems like LA and JB were extremely lucky and/or his teammates were extremely unlucky once they moved to another team and/or LA and JB had some inside track- that the article makes light of.

Frankie Andreu
Tyler Hamilton
Peter Meinert Nielsen
Jonathan Vaughters
Benoit Joachim
Roberto Heras
Floyd Landis
Pavel Padrnos
Manuel Beltran

What do you think about the fact that during the giro last year armstrongs Hct was lower at the finish than the start, by 4-5 points i think (which is to be expected), however, during the tour it was about the same at the finish as the start.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Hello msuguy512 and All,

I do not have access to Lance's HCT data and even if I did I am not qualified to evaluate it in context of dehydration, fatigue, and so on.

I think we are on shaky ground to draw conclusions from small data samples, especially without context.

I read that HCT being the ratio of plasma to red cells can vary greatly depending on the amount of plasma which can be modified in many ways.

Going to altitude, getting dehydrated, taking diuretics, etc. can modify the HCT ratio in a short time interval as can ingesting a large amount of water.

The effects are complex as indicated by a study below and evaluations are above my pay grade.

This study was designed to examine changes of hemorheological parameters and red cell aggregation particularly in essential arterial hypertension subjects receiving antihypertensive diuretic therapy. Fifty six female subjects were enrolled in this study. Thirty seven subjects (group I) were treated for four weeks with Hydrochlorothiaszide (25 mg/day); Nineteen patients (group II) were infused with dose of furosemide 40 mg i.v. Both prior to and following drug treatment for four weeks and four hours after furosemide infusion hemorheological measurements included plasma viscosity; hematocrit, total plasma protein, red cell rigidity index (Tk) and RBC aggregation indices.

In addition to this protocol the erythrocytes of patients of group II were incubated with furosemide (0.03 mM; for 30 min at 37°C) to study a direct furosemide effect on red cell aggregation. Treatment and infusion with each of the two drugs significantly (p<0.05) reduced blood pressure in both groups. However, the hemorheological effects of hydrochlorothiaszide therapy were not significant. The effect of furosemide infusion and red cell incubation with it led to significant RBCA elevation. These results thus suggest that the rheologic effects of saluretic diuretics therapy were not significant. Single furosemide infusion and using it in vitro resulted in strong effect of red cell aggregation increase.

What we need is a red cell counter that can calculate the total mature and immature red blood in our bodies - not just the variable ratio of red cells to plasma of a small sample.

Perhaps nano counters like the minature submarine that traveled through the body in the movie 'Fantastic Voyage' could accomplish the task in real time and provide an updated count that would indicate any 'unatural spiking'.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060397/

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Isn't that what the % reticulocytes is? It should be around 1% (red blood cells last ~3 months -> 90 days therefore 1.1% were created today). If it is >2% then it is assumed you are taking EPO. The only problem with this is if you take EPO & transfuse wouldn't the % stay the same yet your total RBC go up, you could even add some saline and your HcT wouldn't go up to not trip any results. I don't know much about the off scores and whether or not they account for this type of manipulation. I could be way off here but I think most of what you are talking about exists.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

don't you think, tho, that you could take any uncaught (i won't say clean, just, uncaught) cycling star who's been around awhile and find a similar group of one-time teammate riders who'd been caught?

about bruyneel's parallel drug program: i had always understood that was the purpose, to go further than the typical anti-doping measures, so to be proactive. i don't know why or where i came to have that understanding, it just seems the narrative that i remember explaining the program.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was going to comment on the Landis stuff, but first had to say that as a criminal defence lawyer in Canada, your post makes no sense. No competent lawyer would ever have told you this.

The law isn't a magic kingsdom; common sense does sometimes apply. Making a judge or jury sit for extra time than a case needs will not endear you to them (esp. the jury, who are often losing money being there). You'd seem incompetent and wasteful.

Raising "absolutely incredulous" points over and over again would cement in the mind of the judge or jury that you had no defence. Think about it - the jury is you, the judge is even less patient. Insulting people's intelligence repeatedly is not how anyone wins cases.

As for Landis, from a lawyer's perspective it's interesting to watch who is silent and who is answering, and interesting to me that ST'ers have said so little about this angle. It speaks volumes.

Micheal Barry answered within a day with an emphatic denial. So did his wife, and his good friend, Olympian Clara Hughes.

LA and JB answered within hours, but had to really because they've been through this before and (dirty or clean) it's a little late to change course. Way too much at stake now - tour titles, perjury charges from past litigation etc., this year's tour, entire legacy etc.

Levi - silence.

Zabriskie - silence. (worse, Vaughters' response spoke volumes, the wrong way).

Hincapie - "it's disappointing" and then some reports attributed to him denials, but they seem to have been confused with Andy Rihs' denials. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think George had said Floyd was lying (yet).

Andy Rihs - denial;

Lelangue & Ochowitz - denials I believe.

It's not hard to image, looking forward and back (in terms of implications; lying has its consequences) for each rider, why they would be silent is they were guilty. But why stay silent for so long if you were innocent of what was being said?

There are no other teams that has followed LA/JB not caught / then caught on other teams. Bruyneel's drug program is/was the same marketing as other's teams. They no longer have any drug testing program, b/c they feel the UCI does the 'correct' job. The article that I mentioned actually used a test that their team took- and tried to have the UCI ban the guy with their test. No other team has done that with any rider. Gusev seemed like a fall guy to show they are a clean team. That was my take on that part of the article.

This NYT article has recent rider quotes- and none of them are denials- but carefully chosen words.

Hincapie-

“Whoever wants to talk about something eight years ago, fine, they can waste their time on that,” Hincapie said. “I want to talk about the future of the sport and the sacrifices we put into it.”
Hincapie addressed the accusations, saying he was disappointed to learn what Landis had accused him of, claims that included blood doping.
“I would like to say that there isn’t anybody out there, whether it’s the press, the fans or Usada, that wants a clean sport more than me,” he said. “I’m out there suffering, day in and day out. I sacrifice everything for my family. I don’t see my kids that much. I train five, six, seven hours a day, and I’d give anything for this sport.” “I’m not the type of person that tries to bring harm on anybody,” he said. “I’ve led my life by trying to be a good person, by trying to be a good example, by trying to set an example.”

Levi-
Leipheimer said, “I really believe in cycling and think it’s fair and clean.”

Stapleton-
“I believe that these guys that Landis named are playing by the rules and you have to judge them by the standards of today, and not look back to things that may have happened years ago,” Stapleton said. “I don’t think a witch hunt will serve any purpose.”
He added: “I’m all for the older generation racing and succeeding and passing the drug tests, but they don’t define the sport anymore. Lance Armstrong doesn’t define the sport anymore. There’s a new generation of riders and teams who operate under a whole new set of rules. I think the fans should stay tuned for that.”

McQuaid-
“The sport of today is a completely different sport than it was five years ago, than it was 10 years ago, that I’m sure,” McQuaid said. “It’s unfortunate that Landis, a rider with some sort of an agenda, has chosen to try to diminish all the work we’ve been doing.”

Silence = guilt is awfully simplistic. This is as much about the media as it is about facts and law. One reason to stay silent is to keep your name out of the news cycle. For the less well-known names, that makes a lot of sense. The fewer times your name comes up next to the word "dope," the better. Standing up and denying it only serves to increase the frequency. For example: it didn't occur to me that Michael Barry might have doped until I read his denial.

Lance is in a different category. His name is going to be in the news cycle regardless. That is why it makes sense to launch a character assassination of Floyd Landis so quickly and profoundly. You want Landis's character to be the story that runs in the media, rather than whether Lance doped or not.

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Graham Barron Design: Custom west coast house design http://www.grahambarron.com/

I was going to comment on the Landis stuff, but first had to say that as a criminal defence lawyer in Canada, your post makes no sense. No competent lawyer would ever have told you this.

Look up Arthur Maloney Q.C and then ask if he was competent. He was one of the top criminal lawyers in Canada (in addition to being an MP and Ontario's first Ombudsman).

Raising "absolutely incredulous" points over and over again would cement in the mind of the judge or jury that you had no defence. Think about it - the jury is you, the judge is even less patient. Insulting people's intelligence repeatedly is not how anyone wins cases.

Seemed to work for OJ. Remember the mysterious drug raid gone bad or the cop with an axe to grind or the unknown assailant.

As for Landis, from a lawyer's perspective it's interesting to watch who is silent and who is answering, and interesting to me that ST'ers have said so little about this angle. It speaks volumes.

I agree that this is the most troubling aspect of the entire saga, no one is speaking out. Even Lance, who constantly makes threats never really follows through, he just scares people with the cost and unpopularity of going after someone who has done so much for cancer, which is why I believe he hides behind his foundation.

One reason to stay silent is to keep your name out of the news cycle.

If you are innocent you defend yourself, period.

I agree that this is the most troubling aspect of the entire saga, no one is speaking out. Even Lance, who constantly makes threats never really follows through, he just scares people with the cost and unpopularity of going after someone who has done so much for cancer, which is why I believe he hides behind his foundation.

Before you say Lance hasnt followed through, hasnt he gone to court a few times in cases?


Why not hide behind his foundation? It's a PR dream. Lance can use that foundation to continue cancer research while at the same time making him look like a saint. I think it is brilliant on Lance especially because I'd say it is a 8:1 ratio (just a guess) of people in favor of Lance vs caring/thinking he is some bad mean doping cyclist (I'm talking all of society, not just cyclist's).

Again, your forgetting it isnt Lance that has to prove he is innocent. It is Landis and others who have to prove he doped. So Lance doenst always have to go on the offense, he can do enough deflection/reasoning to show doubt in the accusations.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"Gusev seemed like a fall guy to show they are a clean team. That was my take on that part of the article."

that's gusev's view, according to the article. or, gusev is just a doper. that's the other possibility. i think the article's view is pretty far fetched.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In a courtroom, sure, because you have to - but media just doesn't work that way.

For example, a couple of months ago someone on Slowtwitch mentioned that a famous athlete was now training with a doctor who had previously been accused of doping. It was a banal topic - until that famous athlete came on Slowtwitch and angrily denied being a doper. I'm certain that I only read the post, and found it interesting, because of the appearance of the famous athlete and his denial. I have no idea whether that athlete dopes, and I don't care, but now they will forever be linked in my mind.

If you want a forum topic to go away, you ignore it, and it gradually sinks down the list until it reaches page 2 and beyond, into oblivion. If you start a flame war, the topic sits at the top of the first page and people read it.

The media works exactly the same way. It feeds on new information. Starve it, and it dies.

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Graham Barron Design: Custom west coast house design http://www.grahambarron.com/

The media works exactly the same way. It feeds on new information. Starve it, and it dies.


In today's society, you have no control over "starving" the media. Lance knows this. I doubt very much his advisers are saying; "say nothing, and this will all go away."

Hardly.

They're saying; "Shit. Shit. Shit. Say nothing. Lets start making phone calls."

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"That night I had a dream. I dreamt I was as light as the ether."

As mentioned, Lance is in a different category from the other cyclists. He can't avoid being in the story. So his goal is to change what the story's about. He does this by feeding the media with information about Landis that makes him look suspect. Landis has no proof, Landis is bitter, Landis is mentally unstable, Landis wants to write another book, etc. Here are Landis's emails, read them. Then people talk about that instead. It's a good strategy: witness the title of this thread.

But if my name is Joe Cyclist who raced with Lance years ago, my strategy is either to say nothing at all, or say things that are so banal that they're not worth quoting. "The sport changes over time, old news, I like cycling, nothing to see here." Perfect.

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Graham Barron Design: Custom west coast house design http://www.grahambarron.com/

But they'd know that someone tested positive and that it wasn't reported as a story anywhere, right?

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f/k/a mclamb6

VeloNews just posted a press release from the UCI.
http://velonews.competitor.com/...release-floyd-landis’s-accusations_118561

___________

UCI Press Release, May 25 2010

Floyd Landis’s accusations: clarifications from the UCI

Due to the controversy following the statements made by Floyd Landis, the International Cycling Union wishes to stress that none of the tests revealed the presence of EPO in the samples taken from riders at the 2001 Tour of Switzerland. The UCI has all the documentation to prove this fact.

Between 2001 and 2003, only the Paris, Lausanne, Cologne, Barcelona and Madrid laboratories, commissioned by the UCI, detected the presence of EPO in the samples that had been entrusted to them for analysis. During this period, the first laboratory carried out three positive analyses for EPO, the second 18 and the three last laboratories one each. None of the samples concerned had been taken at the 2001 Tour of Switzerland.

The International Olympic Committee received a copy of all the reports for the positive analyses mentioned above. Furthermore, in 2001, all the analysis reports carried out at the Tour of Switzerland were sent to Swiss Olympic.

Since 1st January 2004, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) receives a copy of any analysis reports which show an abnormal result. WADA has not reported any abnormal analyses from any of its accredited laboratories that have not been duly dealt with by the UCI.

The UCI wishes to reassert the total transparency of its anti-doping testing and categorically rejects any suspicion in relation to the concealment of results from parties involved in this field.

UCI Press Service

[/b][/i]They're saying; "Shit. Shit. Shit. Say nothing. Lets start making phone calls."
[/reply]
And posting emails on the race website....which is apparently to defend himself(?) The emails appear to involve his council & posting them does not seem to be of high caliber PR in my opinion. it looks desperate regardless of which "side" one is viewing from.

http://www.livestrong.com/...-doping-allegations/

Link is dead

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Sorry- just fixed it.