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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
My computrainer was delivered yesterday and I'm all setup. The setup was very easy. It helps that I have a dedicated trainer bike. The wires weren't a big deal and don't notice them. I did a very tidy install with velcro straps and zip ties. I did one workout thus far and it was awesome. No drops or spikes. Just nice, consistent wattages that I determined via Perfpro. I am so glad that I made the switch to CT. I usually invest in the cutting edge of technology with everything in my life but this is the one case where I'm excited to go back to the basics. This thing is just awesome!

Fantastic. Having a dedicated trainer bike is the only way to go!!

And the CT just works!

Take a picture of your setup and post.

I also love state of the art stuff, but I guess my purchasing of 2 2009 P2 10 speeds this year says I can be very practical at times, also. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
My computrainer was delivered yesterday and I'm all setup. The setup was very easy. It helps that I have a dedicated trainer bike. The wires weren't a big deal and don't notice them. I did a very tidy install with velcro straps and zip ties. I did one workout thus far and it was awesome. No drops or spikes. Just nice, consistent wattages that I determined via Perfpro. I am so glad that I made the switch to CT. I usually invest in the cutting edge of technology with everything in my life but this is the one case where I'm excited to go back to the basics. This thing is just awesome!

I work in cutting edge technology today (we do switching chips that go into 4G wireless networks and into supercomputers), but as a consumer, I always buy 1-2 generation old technology. The reason for this, I I find that there is not any rigorous "engineering" in the word "software engineering". Most of these guys are hackers that fly by the seat of their pants and generally don't build things with a solid engineering approach. If a mechanical or aerospace guy behaved like most software guys, they'd be fired.

In my first job testing F-18 software in 1989, we were finding bugs that flew in 1973 in the YF-17 prototype that McDonnell Douglas first flew. That code made it (in another variant) into the F-18 and had been flying for 16 years by the time we were banging on it. None of those bugs were mission critical nor safety critical, but "still". My background was not on software, it was in electrical and control systems so the level of rigor I expect is close to nuclear reactor shutdown control systems level (I guess I am picky).

My team does semiconductors, and before we go to fab to manufacture, we have to pay several million on what is called a "mask set" that is used to make the wafers from which the chips are made. When you pay that much just for a mask set, you get it right first time, which means testing a gazillion corner cases so the chips come back working first time right. If you want to change the code that generated those chips, pay several million again and usually someone gets fired. I am generally quite dissatisfied with most consumer level software products. They are just not at the same level of "robustness" that I like so I'm stuck on ancient and robust Computrainer technology wires and all. Just rode 2x20 min today on a hill course that I rode. First 20 at 3.77W per kilo and second one at 3.93 (240W and 250W respectively). I am 99.5% certain that the watts displayed were actual watts and not some concocted thing filled with drift and/or drop outs and other fluctuations. That CT that I got 4 year old in 2009 has been rock solid. It's the best tri training tool that I have aside from my 19 year old treadmill.

Having said all that, I am looking at the Wahoo, to potentially put in our mini gym at work and leave one of my bikes there. But I'd probably just pick up a second hand CT for less.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
mercuryvapor wrote:
My computrainer was delivered yesterday and I'm all setup. The setup was very easy. It helps that I have a dedicated trainer bike. The wires weren't a big deal and don't notice them. I did a very tidy install with velcro straps and zip ties. I did one workout thus far and it was awesome. No drops or spikes. Just nice, consistent wattages that I determined via Perfpro. I am so glad that I made the switch to CT. I usually invest in the cutting edge of technology with everything in my life but this is the one case where I'm excited to go back to the basics. This thing is just awesome!


I work in cutting edge technology today (we do switching chips that go into 4G wireless networks and into supercomputers), but as a consumer, I always buy 1-2 generation old technology. The reason for this, I I find that there is not any rigorous "engineering" in the word "software engineering". Most of these guys are hackers that fly by the seat of their pants and generally don't build things with a solid engineering approach. If a mechanical or aerospace guy behaved like most software guys, they'd be fired.

In my first job testing F-18 software in 1989, we were finding bugs that flew in 1973 in the YF-17 prototype that McDonnell Douglas first flew. That code made it (in another variant) into the F-18 and had been flying for 16 years by the time we were banging on it. None of those bugs were mission critical nor safety critical, but "still". My background was not on software, it was in electrical and control systems so the level of rigor I expect is close to nuclear reactor shutdown control systems level (I guess I am picky).

My team does semiconductors, and before we go to fab to manufacture, we have to pay several million on what is called a "mask set" that is used to make the wafers from which the chips are made. When you pay that much just for a mask set, you get it right first time, which means testing a gazillion corner cases so the chips come back working first time right. If you want to change the code that generated those chips, pay several million again and usually someone gets fired. I am generally quite dissatisfied with most consumer level software products. They are just not at the same level of "robustness" that I like so I'm stuck on ancient and robust Computrainer technology wires and all. Just rode 2x20 min today on a hill course that I rode. First 20 at 3.77W per kilo and second one at 3.93 (240W and 250W respectively). I am 99.5% certain that the watts displayed were actual watts and not some concocted thing filled with drift and/or drop outs and other fluctuations. That CT that I got 4 year old in 2009 has been rock solid. It's the best tri training tool that I have aside from my 19 year old treadmill.

Having said all that, I am looking at the Wahoo, to potentially put in our mini gym at work and leave one of my bikes there. But I'd probably just pick up a second hand CT for less.

Would you really want to spend time becoming an expert on another trainer? :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [QFieldBoden] [ In reply to ]
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QFieldBoden wrote:
Hi

Why do you have to get on and off the CompuTrainer to adjust the knob when calibrating, it's simply not necessary.

Adjust it to about the correct level before you get on, say to around 2.6lbs and from then on you don't need to touch it as the actual calibration, the bit that matters, is done from the handlebar controller.

Only reason for getting on and off would be if you got the initial "approximate" tension wildly wrong as far as I can see.

Q

Kind of what I thought. I pump my tire to the same pressure every time before starting. Then I turn the knob 1.75 turns after it just contacts the tire and I'm done. Then 10 minutes in do a calibration with the head unit and it's almost always identical each time. The calibration numbers vary very little that way.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, if I were closer, I would try to get this velotron.

http://www.ebay.com/...-Frame-/151921751764?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Wow, if I were closer, I would try to get this velotron.

http://www.ebay.com/...-Frame-/151921751764?

Dave for the life of me I can't understand why a guy who doesn't train outdoors or race with power needs with not just one but three Velotrons. The way you train you'd be just as well off with an inexpensive Kurt Kinetic. A huge upgrade from that would be a power meter on your bike that you could put to use outdoors as well as on the KK. As it is now you're wasting a huge amount of money on things you don't need.....................................well I guess that is typical triathlete behavior.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Wow, if I were closer, I would try to get this velotron.

http://www.ebay.com/...-Frame-/151921751764?


Dave for the life of me I can't understand why a guy who doesn't train outdoors or race with power needs with not just one but three Velotrons. The way you train you'd be just as well off with an inexpensive Kurt Kinetic. A huge upgrade from that would be a power meter on your bike that you could put to use outdoors as well as on the KK. As it is now you're wasting a huge amount of money on things you don't need.....................................well I guess that is typical triathlete behavior.

Hugh

One for spare parts.

Two, one of these days maybe folks will live around me and I can have multiple people train with me at one time.

So, what kind of car do you drive? I drive a 1990 with 105K miles. So, why do you spend some much on a car? :o How how large is your house? Or smart phone. Etc. :)


We all spend money on stuff others think is nuts. When I go to sell my Velotrons, I get all if not more money back, so it is not a waste of money. And since they have allowed me
to be on the bike just about 7 days a week for a few years, how many can say that?

Some have just said Velotrons have to be super expensive. I just keep finding they do not have to be.

If I had a choice of this unit, compared to any other trainer and the issues, it is a no brainer.

Trying to consider asking the guy would he meet me have way up the state and I could buy another. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Wow, if I were closer, I would try to get this velotron.

http://www.ebay.com/...-Frame-/151921751764?


Dave for the life of me I can't understand why a guy who doesn't train outdoors or race with power needs with not just one but three Velotrons. The way you train you'd be just as well off with an inexpensive Kurt Kinetic. A huge upgrade from that would be a power meter on your bike that you could put to use outdoors as well as on the KK. As it is now you're wasting a huge amount of money on things you don't need.....................................well I guess that is typical triathlete behavior.

Hugh

Starting bid is only $1000. If it was local I'd get it instantly. It is perfect if someone comes over of it I want to do a bike fit/power test. Also, I think we don't need to pick on dave for what he wants to spend money on. It's a free world. I live on the smallest house on the street with the cheapest car in my company parking lot (even though it is new)....the Audi A6 I did not buy takes the form of tri gear, race entries, travel to events, training camps etc. Definitely a great tradeoff.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.

For me to get a new replacement load generator is like 1K.

So if I can get a complete bike for around the same, money well spent.

If it were closer, I would already be making an offer to him. Guess I better stop posting and go ride my velotron this morning, even though I still can not
get rid of this cold, so another short ride. :(

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think one of the main reasons VeloTron prices are low is the lack of software support. Once that changes, I could see prices rising, as they would be the ultimate trainer (unless your primary goal was to simulate outdoor riding in which case you get a Lynx) . There aren't a lot of them so a small increase in demand could have a significant effect on prices.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
I think one of the main reasons VeloTron prices are low is the lack of software support. Once that changes, I could see prices rising, as they would be the ultimate trainer (unless your primary goal was to simulate outdoor riding in which case you get a Lynx) . There aren't a lot of them so a small increase in demand could have a significant effect on prices.

Nah, for a lot of us, we have all the sw we need. We just ride, and could care less about bells and still that do not make one faster.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Wow, if I were closer, I would try to get this velotron.

http://www.ebay.com/...-Frame-/151921751764?

Dave for the life of me I can't understand why a guy who doesn't train outdoors or race with power needs with not just one but three Velotrons. The way you train you'd be just as well off with an inexpensive Kurt Kinetic. A huge upgrade from that would be a power meter on your bike that you could put to use outdoors as well as on the KK. As it is now you're wasting a huge amount of money on things you don't need.....................................well I guess that is typical triathlete behavior.

Hugh

If it's such a robust trainer, why the need for multiple spare units in case it breaks? A KK with a power meter is a great option. Never let me down once.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
I think one of the main reasons VeloTron prices are low is the lack of software support. Once that changes, I could see prices rising, as they would be the ultimate trainer (unless your primary goal was to simulate outdoor riding in which case you get a Lynx) . There aren't a lot of them so a small increase in demand could have a significant effect on prices.


Nah, for a lot of us, we have all the sw we need. We just ride, and could care less about bells and still that do not make one faster.

That said, do you know why it is that VT and CT both run on RM1 and Erg Video, but VT can't work with many of the 3rd party options that CT can. Seems really odd.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [J_R] [ In reply to ]
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J_R wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
I think one of the main reasons VeloTron prices are low is the lack of software support. Once that changes, I could see prices rising, as they would be the ultimate trainer (unless your primary goal was to simulate outdoor riding in which case you get a Lynx) . There aren't a lot of them so a small increase in demand could have a significant effect on prices.


Nah, for a lot of us, we have all the sw we need. We just ride, and could care less about bells and still that do not make one faster.


That said, do you know why it is that VT and CT both run on RM1 and Erg Video, but VT can't work with many of the 3rd party options that CT can. Seems really odd.

Currently the VT does not work 100% correctly with RM1. They have suppose to fix for years now to be honest. I found the gearing does not work.

The VT works fine with EV since they have the dll stuff.

The VT has been reversed engineered, one sw package was made, and the person is going to work on another. 3rd party folks I assume could give him some
money for his work and get his DLL's and make their stuff work on the VT. He posted on ST.

RM keeps saying they are going to release the stuff, but ........

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [J_R] [ In reply to ]
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J_R wrote:
That said, do you know why it is that VT and CT both run on RM1 and Erg Video, but VT can't work with many of the 3rd party options that CT can. Seems really odd.

RM1 is Racermate's software and they shared the code with Ergvideo hence the VT support. The CT was reverse engineered and the protocol/code released to the public which enabled 3rd party software support. The VT was secretly reverse engineered several years ago. A software bridge between the VT and ANT+ FE-C is expected within a few weeks so, in theory, any software that supports FE-C will support the VT.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
A software bridge between the VT and ANT+ FE-C is expected within a few weeks so, in theory, any software that supports FE-C will support the VT.

can you say who will be releasing that ?
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.

For me to get a new replacement load generator is like 1K.

So if I can get a complete bike for around the same, money well spent.

If it were closer, I would already be making an offer to him. Guess I better stop posting and go ride my velotron this morning, even though I still can not
get rid of this cold, so another short ride. :(

So really what is the functional difference between a CT and a Velotron ?? I have a CT and RSF is very close to me...
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
A software bridge between the VT and ANT+ FE-C is expected within a few weeks so, in theory, any software that supports FE-C will support the VT.


can you say who will be releasing that ?

I will be. I reverse engineered the VT back in 2010 and told only one other person about it (a friend who also bought a VT). For half a decade only the two of us used the software I developed.

Also in the works: Lynx and Tacx I-Flow.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
J_R wrote:
That said, do you know why it is that VT and CT both run on RM1 and Erg Video, but VT can't work with many of the 3rd party options that CT can. Seems really odd.


RM1 is Racermate's software and they shared the code with Ergvideo hence the VT support. The CT was reverse engineered and the protocol/code released to the public which enabled 3rd party software support. The VT was secretly reverse engineered several years ago. A software bridge between the VT and ANT+ FE-C is expected within a few weeks so, in theory, any software that supports FE-C will support the VT.

Very cool

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Matsprt] [ In reply to ]
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Matsprt wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.


For me to get a new replacement load generator is like 1K.

So if I can get a complete bike for around the same, money well spent.

If it were closer, I would already be making an offer to him. Guess I better stop posting and go ride my velotron this morning, even though I still can not
get rid of this cold, so another short ride. :(


So really what is the functional difference between a CT and a Velotron ?? I have a CT and RSF is very close to me...

What is a RSF?

Functional difference? What are you asking?

Velotron is lab accuracy. Never have to touch anything. No warm ups. Just always get on and ride.

SW between a VT and CT in theory is the same.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Sausagetail wrote:
marcag wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
A software bridge between the VT and ANT+ FE-C is expected within a few weeks so, in theory, any software that supports FE-C will support the VT.


can you say who will be releasing that ?


I will be. I reverse engineered the VT back in 2010 and told only one other person about it (a friend who also bought a VT). For half a decade only the two of us used the software I developed.

Also in the works: Lynx and Tacx I-Flow.

So exactly how could this allow other sw to be used on the VT? Which some say they have to have?

Looking forward to you stuff. Too bad RM just seems to not want to do anything.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Matsprt] [ In reply to ]
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Matsprt wrote:
So really what is the functional difference between a CT and a Velotron ?? I have a CT and RSF is very close to me...

VT has a chain drive so there's no drift due to tires or belts heating up.

You basically never have to do roll down calibrations. In fact, there's not even a recalibration process for users.

It also deals with heat very well so there's no risk of overheating as with the CT load generator. The VT flywheel barely gets warm to the touch while the CT's can warp.

The resistance can be turned down to almost zero watts whereas some smart trainers with tire-roller interfaces have a certain amount of inherent drag.

The VT is a faster, higher resolution device. It communicates at 38400 baud vs 2400(?) for the CT. It transmits telemetry at 200 Hz and has 72 holes in the copper fins for measuring flywheel velocity. I believe those correspond with the 72 bars you see in VT SpinScan graphs. The CT has notably fewer (24?).

The VT can change resistance in about 2/3rds of a pedal stroke. There's no lag when doing micro intervals. It will slam you as hard as you want, as fast as you want.
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [Matsprt] [ In reply to ]
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Matsprt wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.


For me to get a new replacement load generator is like 1K.

So if I can get a complete bike for around the same, money well spent.

If it were closer, I would already be making an offer to him. Guess I better stop posting and go ride my velotron this morning, even though I still can not
get rid of this cold, so another short ride. :(


So really what is the functional difference between a CT and a Velotron ?? I have a CT and RSF is very close to me...

It is electrical in nature were as most (maybe all?) other PM's measure power through mechanical means (strain gauges etc) In theory this should be pretty accurate. IE a copper disc moving through some sort of magnetic field. Think a billion or so homes/businesses across the planet being charged trillions of dollars, (your home power meter) at this level of money and payment that we are all likely a part of…there better be a pretty damn good argument for accuracy.

The issue vs say motors or generators vs humans generating power is the constant loading vs variable loading of humans. In the Velotron there is also I believe, some sort of beam which measures deflection….someone else can maybe elaborate on how that exactly works.

The problem with the Velotron and I would say (from what I have read recently some other PM's) is that they read power when you are not peddling. In spite of all the complex discussions on repeatability, accuracy etc most of us should be in agreement that when your legs stop moving you are producing exactly zero power.

I would say it's a small to large issue, if you are logging NP, AP tracking TSS etc under certain workouts. The Velotron measures a downward wattage for about 6-12 seconds after say a threshold load/effort down to about 2-4 watts if the flywheel is still turning. Not an issue under say sustained 5-20 or longer minute efforts but an issue in say 10X30 seconds all out with 15 seconds "float" or "soft pedal" in between. I can "game" the system under some of these workouts by spinning high at 300 watts and then stop peddling and gearing down in the "15 second float" in theory giving me a higher NP and AP that I din't earn.

Mildly frustrating for this and a lot of other PM's…I am not a software guy but why would it be so hard to say "legs not moving, power zero"

Maurice
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Re: That's it. Current Kickr owner and going to get a Computrainer [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Matsprt wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sausagetail wrote:
That is a smoking hot deal.

You saw that one before me. I was certain the only reason it hadn't sold yet was that you hadn't seen it yet.


For me to get a new replacement load generator is like 1K.

So if I can get a complete bike for around the same, money well spent.

If it were closer, I would already be making an offer to him. Guess I better stop posting and go ride my velotron this morning, even though I still can not
get rid of this cold, so another short ride. :(


So really what is the functional difference between a CT and a Velotron ?? I have a CT and RSF is very close to me...

What is a RSF?

Functional difference? What are you asking?

Velotron is lab accuracy. Never have to touch anything. No warm ups. Just always get on and ride.

SW between a VT and CT in theory is the same.

RSF = Rancho Santa Fe (North San Diego Co.)
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