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Teach the masses proper running form
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Anytime the issue of proper run form comes up, some vocal members of the ST mafia shout, "Just run more! Your body will figure out what's right! There are no shortcuts!"

In this front page article, Slowman writes:


...we have known for a long, long time – coaching it for a century, writing about it for more than a half-century – how to run properly. It's just not been anything many people have been interested in hearing. What we've heard instead for a generation is that everybody will naturally adapt to his own best running style. Fine. You'll also naturally adapt to your best cooking style, given enough time. But you'll get there much more quickly with a cookbook and a home ec class.

I agree with Dan.

While simply prescribing ever-increasing volume may work for a team because it weeds out those with such crappy form (or other problems) that they can't adjust to the high mileage. The team is better off because it quickly selects for those who can run high mileage.

But this approach often fails miserably for many individual runners, especially adult on-set runners. Try telling a 40-year old beginner triathlete who's sat at a desk for the past 2 decades to simply "run more" than the 10-15 mpw he's currently doing. He probably runs like he walks--shuffling along, throwing his foot far in front of his knee when it lands. There's a good chance running that way hurts, and there's a good chance that trying to run more than 20 mpw that way will end up with him injured.

But if taught some basics about good running form, he can likely increase his mileage safely. Because the point isn't to weed him out of triathlon--the point is to help him run comfortably for the rest of his life.

And besides, maybe he doesn't want to run more than 15 mpw. Should he be sentenced to forever run with crappy form?

Flame away.
Last edited by: AlwaysCurious: Apr 17, 14 12:37
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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"we have known for a long, long time – coaching it for a century, writing about it for more than a half-century – how to run properly"

Is it pose, or chi?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. I was the 40-year-old desk-jockey beginner who was a brake-with-every-step, 80-step-per-minute, giant-padded-shoe, lumbering heel-striker. And a year or two later, after lots of running, I was more or less the same.

Then through a bit of coaching, a few clinics, and a ton of reading and video-watching and critiques from new running buddies, I got a lot faster and got injured a lot less.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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The biggest problem for people starting to run in the 40 is not form. It is that they are out of shape and needs to lose may pounds. Getting back to shape takes time. During that process most likely they will also get skinnier and the speed will be faster. When the speed increases the running form also changes. No one should have the same running form if they run a 9 minute mile or a 5.20 mile.

I believe that focusing on form or even shoes will take away from what is important in running. You need to run consistently over years. Your running form should match your speed. As Marius Bakken said (13.06 on 5,000m). When I run slow I am a heal striker, when I am running fast, I am not.

Trying to be a front foot runner without having the speed the back it up will just make a person look like he/she has to go to the bathroom.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
The biggest problem for people starting to run in the 40 is not form. It is that they are out of shape and needs to lose may pounds. Getting back to shape takes time. During that process most likely they will also get skinnier and the speed will be faster. When the speed increases the running form also changes. No one should have the same running form if they run a 9 minute mile or a 5.20 mile.

I believe that focusing on form or even shoes will take away from what is important in running. You need to run consistently over years. Your running form should match your speed. As Marius Bakken said (13.06 on 5,000m). When I run slow I am a heal striker, when I am running fast, I am not.

Trying to be a front foot runner without having the speed the back it up will just make a person look like he/she has to go to the bathroom.


In fact, a 5:20/mile runner will hold the same basics of form when he's running a 9:00/mile. Yes, his hip extension, stride length, lean, and cadence may all be less. But they will all scale across speeds--they'll all gradually change as he slows--not suddenly morph into a completely different style once he hits a speed threshold. In other words, his form will be recognizably the similar at any speed.

And, besides, who said anything about trying to force people to be a front foot runner?
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
The biggest problem for people starting to run in the 40 is not form. It is that they are out of shape and needs to lose may pounds. Getting back to shape takes time. During that process most likely they will also get skinnier and the speed will be faster. When the speed increases the running form also changes. No one should have the same running form if they run a 9 minute mile or a 5.20 mile.

I believe that focusing on form or even shoes will take away from what is important in running. You need to run consistently over years. Your running form should match your speed. As Marius Bakken said (13.06 on 5,000m). When I run slow I am a heal striker, when I am running fast, I am not.

Trying to be a front foot runner without having the speed the back it up will just make a person look like he/she has to go to the bathroom.

Not necessarily true....I came from a 25 year cycling background. Yeah, I was over 40, but I was hardly overweight and out of shape. "Just running" caused me more than a few injuries (Achilles, ITBS, among others).

Agreed that you need to run consistently over a period of time, but just telling people to "run and figure it out" is a recipe for disaster in my experience. Yes, N=1.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Halvard wrote:
The biggest problem for people starting to run in the 40 is not form. It is that they are out of shape and needs to lose may pounds. Getting back to shape takes time. During that process most likely they will also get skinnier and the speed will be faster. When the speed increases the running form also changes. No one should have the same running form if they run a 9 minute mile or a 5.20 mile.

I believe that focusing on form or even shoes will take away from what is important in running. You need to run consistently over years. Your running form should match your speed. As Marius Bakken said (13.06 on 5,000m). When I run slow I am a heal striker, when I am running fast, I am not.

Trying to be a front foot runner without having the speed the back it up will just make a person look like he/she has to go to the bathroom.


Not necessarily true....I came from a 25 year cycling background. Yeah, I was over 40, but I was hardly overweight and out of shape. "Just running" caused me more than a few injuries (Achilles, ITBS, among others).

Agreed that you need to run consistently over a period of time, but just telling people to "run and figure it out" is a recipe for disaster in my experience. Yes, N=1.

I should have been more accurate, I was talking about running shape. Endurance running is different than cycling or swimming ;-)
What is hard for people starting again getting into running around 40 is the time it takes to get the body ready. Running is a weight bearing sport, so not doing it for a while makes it hard to start again. But running is not a sport where you need many years of grooming to get the correct technique like swimming and xc-skiing. You can start late in running and become really good, it just will take a long time.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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NEWTONS OR GTFO

(Just kidding, I don't wear Newtons)
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone who wants to teach running form is selling something.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Disagree.

You're ignoring the science-proven fact that our brains AND spinal reflexes (not requiring higher thought) are hard-wired to rapidly adopt the most efficient stride for our body type and physiology.

It is a special motion that we are adapted specifically to do, and to do well. It is a totally different situation than something like swimming, or playing an instrument, or in Slowman's case, cooking, where we have no innate evolutionary natural hardwiring to do correctly, and thus need to go through the slow, painful process of actively acquiring it, and then reinforcing it through drills, and careful practice.

With distance running, all you have to do is run. As your fitness gets better, you will naturally adopt a better, more efficient stride that is tailored to your ability and build. What you should NOT do is try and take someone who is not Kenyan-fast, and have them try and copy a Kenyan runner's stride perfectly. It won't work, and the person might even get injured in the process of running a lot of miles on a stride that is inherently not natural to them.

The exception is short-distance springs (<200m). That's not something humans were adapted to do really well, and thus a lot of focused drill training to build explosiveness and powers/speed over that short burst will help a lot.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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LOL
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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"Anyone who wants to teach running form is selling something"

And if it's of value to the person it's probably worth the money.

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Anyone who wants to teach running form is selling something.

QFT.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Are you disagreeing with the fact that every year thousands of adults follow a reasonable couch-to-5k plan and end up injured within 6 months?

If not, what should they do differently to avoid getting injured? They obviously did NOT "rapidly adopt the most efficient stride for [their] body type and physiology." And, just as obviously, "all they had to do was run" did not work for them.

And furthermore, who said anything about trying to make anyone "copy a Kenyan runner's stride perfectly"?
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Which studies correlate running form with injuries?


AlwaysCurious wrote:
Are you disagreeing with the fact that every year thousands of adults follow a reasonable couch-to-5k plan and end up injured within 6 months?

If not, what should they do differently to avoid getting injured? They obviously did NOT "rapidly adopt the most efficient stride for [their] body type and physiology." And, just as obviously, "all they had to do was run" did not work for them.

And furthermore, who said anything about trying to make anyone "copy a Kenyan runner's stride perfectly"?
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Are you disagreeing with the fact that every year thousands of adults follow a reasonable couch-to-5k plan and end up injured within 6 months?

If not, what should they do differently to avoid getting injured? They obviously did NOT "rapidly adopt the most efficient stride for [their] body type and physiology." And, just as obviously, "all they had to do was run" did not work for them.

And furthermore, who said anything about trying to make anyone "copy a Kenyan runner's stride perfectly"?

How many people who do C25k get injured each year? Who said C25k was a good program? Have you even looked at C25k? They don't just run.

As usual, you're talking out of your ass.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Are you disagreeing with the fact that every year thousands of adults follow a reasonable couch-to-5k plan and end up injured within 6 months?

If not, what should they do differently to avoid getting injured? They obviously did NOT "rapidly adopt the most efficient stride for [their] body type and physiology." And, just as obviously, "all they had to do was run" did not work for them.

And furthermore, who said anything about trying to make anyone "copy a Kenyan runner's stride perfectly"?

What should they do. Run less and walk more until they could run more and walk less.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:

In this front page article, Slowman writes:



...we have known for a long, long time – coaching it for a century, writing about it for more than a half-century – how to run properly. It's just not been anything many people have been interested in hearing. What we've heard instead for a generation is that everybody will naturally adapt to his own best running style. Fine. You'll also naturally adapt to your best cooking style, given enough time. But you'll get there much more quickly with a cookbook and a home ec class.


I always find it funny that people will shell out money for ski lessons, swim lessons, <insert activity here> lessons but very few people take running lessons. I spent 8 weeks (1hr a week) working on running and running specific strength drills with a coach and it made the world of difference.

I'll admit that I would always joke that running is just putting one foot in front of the other quickly but there is a lot to learn.

There isn't a universal right way to run but there are plenty of wrong ways to run.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:

In this front page article, Slowman writes:



...we have known for a long, long time – coaching it for a century, writing about it for more than a half-century – how to run properly. It's just not been anything many people have been interested in hearing. What we've heard instead for a generation is that everybody will naturally adapt to his own best running style. Fine. You'll also naturally adapt to your best cooking style, given enough time. But you'll get there much more quickly with a cookbook and a home ec class.


I always find it funny that people will shell out money for ski lessons, swim lessons, <insert activity here> lessons but very few people take running lessons. I spent 8 weeks (1hr a week) working on running and running specific strength drills with a coach and it made the world of difference.

I'll admit that I would always joke that running is just putting one foot in front of the other quickly but there is a lot to learn.

There isn't a universal right way to run but there are plenty of wrong ways to run.

World of difference? Please post your running economy values before and after this training intervention.

But really, in 2013, there have been numerous studies looking at running economy and injury related to footstrike. This denial of science is just getting old.
Last edited by: Nick_Barkley: Apr 17, 14 15:22
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:


In this front page article, Slowman writes:






...we have known for a long, long time – coaching it for a century, writing about it for more than a half-century – how to run properly. It's just not been anything many people have been interested in hearing. What we've heard instead for a generation is that everybody will naturally adapt to his own best running style. Fine. You'll also naturally adapt to your best cooking style, given enough time. But you'll get there much more quickly with a cookbook and a home ec class.



I always find it funny that people will shell out money for ski lessons, swim lessons, <insert activity here> lessons but very few people take running lessons. I spent 8 weeks (1hr a week) working on running and running specific strength drills with a coach and it made the world of difference.

I'll admit that I would always joke that running is just putting one foot in front of the other quickly but there is a lot to learn.

There isn't a universal right way to run but there are plenty of wrong ways to run.


Again, running really is different. As said above, it's biologically hardwired for us to naturally learn to run/walk efficiently. Much like we naturally learn to adopt language.

Skiing, swimming - no natural hardwiring. Actually, running is probably unique amongst the sports human do that doesn't require special technique training to optimize. It would be like trying to teach a cat how to balance - they don't need the lessons, although I'm sure if cats had big pocketbooks, that wouldn't stop would-be coaches from selling them training tips and drills about how to balance.

And as for injuries, those happen even with ideal running form. You go too hard, you ramp up too hard, and in the rare cases where you just aren't build right for distance running (does occur, but it's much rarer than people think), you'll get injured. Doesn't mean drills are going save you. (Actually, running more, but with a much slower buildup, will save you in the vast majority of cases, wayyyyy more than more drillage.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Apr 17, 14 15:23
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Again, running really is different. As said above, it's biologically hardwired for us to naturally learn to run/walk efficiently. Much like we naturally learn to adopt language.


Agree to a point but to paraphrase Slowman you can learn the long, hard way or you can get there faster with a class :) I am not advocating there is a right way to run but everyone has weaknesses that can be identified and then training adapted to address those.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
Last edited by: rbuike: Apr 17, 14 15:27
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Again, running really is different. As said above, it's biologically hardwired for us to naturally learn to run/walk efficiently. Much like we naturally learn to adopt language.


Agree to a point but to paraphrase Slowman you can learn the long, hard way or you can get there faster with a class :) I am not advocating there is a right way to run but everyone has weaknesses that can be identified and then training adapted to address those.

I still disagree.

I don't have the hard data, but odds are good that you cannot accelerate the already optimized hardwiring you have in your brain for run strategy. When running is that evolutionarily important that it's hard-baked into our neuro system to learn, and learn fast, it's highly doubtful than active practice will outperform it or even significantly accelerate it.
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever seen even one person whose form was so incredibly bad that even the least observant person could remark, "he's doing it wrong"?

I'll assume yes, so here's my follow up:

Do you think there's anything at all that could be demonstrated to that runner to help him, or is he sentenced to his "biological hardwiring," however flawed it may be? If not, are you saying that running is the only skill where it's impossible for one human to learn from another human?
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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From suffering shin splints and PF for a year to no issues in 8 weeks. Yes it made a world of difference as I could run longer and faster without those problems occurring.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: Teach the masses proper running form [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Have you ever seen even one person whose form was so incredibly bad that even the least observant person could remark, "he's doing it wrong"?

I'll assume yes, so here's my follow up:

Do you think there's anything at all that could be demonstrated to that runner to help him, or is he sentenced to his "biological hardwiring," however flawed it may be? If not, are you saying that running is the only skill where it's impossible for one human to learn from another human?

Yes, and the solution for that runner is to RUN MORE.

He will get NO faster if he does drills and barely runs. Even if he does drills+runs, his progress in run gains will STILL be slower than that of if he swapped out all those drills for more run time. And if you say the drill time is so short that it's not a time cost, then maybe you need to ask the hard reality that maybe you're just wasting your time completely with those drills if the results of small drills+running equals that of running alone.

And for all those anecdotes about 'it's making me less injured' - they're just anecdotes. I could tell you 1000x more stories of runners who gradually ramped up their mileage slowly and carefully, and now the 80mpw that would have broken them completely with stress fractures, achilles tendon tears, etc., now are a total nonissue. Compared to this real scenario which is experience by EVERY runner, the benefits of drills are in running a farce. (Ok, I'll give you that there may be a small % folks with special needs that drills can specially help with injury reduction, but that % is SMALL - like under 5%, contrary to the claims above.)
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