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TTF Duathlon
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In a previous thread about the Toronto Triathlon Festival, I just read the following in a post from DuDooD :
"... but the volunteers did an excellent job pointing out duathletes and making sure they hit the turnaround. "

I believe my answer to this little point deserves a new thread.

I was in the TTF duathlon yesterday and I don't have the same experience at all.
For many different reasons this was by far the worst organization I ever witnessed in a multisport event (they have so much to learn from multisport canada or others...). But this topic could be left for another pretty packed post.

For now, back to the turnaround. The fact is that for the 10-15 athletes who exited T2 first, there was no volunteer standing at the turnaround, whereas the sign posted there read "Sprint turnaround". I was expecting something like "Duathlon turnaround" so I ran further away. At the end of the day I ran another 10k instead of 5, too afraid of missing a time mat and being accused of cheating. Later the organizers were informed of the confusion and asked a volunteer to stand there and yell at duathletes.

You could argue that I'm just stupid, and there's probably some truth in that statement. But the funny thing is that I was far from being the only one concerned by this bug. Actually 5 to 7 people, including the winner and the second overall, ran between 8 and 10k instead of 5. At the finish line all of us talked to the race referee, who was for sure embarrassed. She explained that for people who ran too far and complained, there would be time readjustments. Which means that they would look at the times for the first run and the ride, and then infer a possible time for the second run... A process which can only result in unfairness for everybody. But well, that was it.

The results took forever to be posted. When they finally were, I found my time not readjusted at all, which is pretty frustrating. I argued my case to the race referee after the results were posted but she didn't seem concerned. I then sent emails but still got no reply. I don't know if i'm the only one in that case.

Anyways i'm not here to complain about my own situation. What I want to question is the overall organization of the race and the validity of the results. For those who had the privilege of having their time readjusted, the inferred times did not always represent fairly their real performance. For instance it's well known amongst top canadian duathletes that the guys who ended up 1st and 2nd routinely run sub 18:30 5k in their last leg. Their inferred time was 20-21min which is ridiculous. In that precise case this does not modify the overall ranking. But in other cases this does. For instance the guy who officially finished 5th was inferred a time way below his capacities, and without the turnaround bug he may or may not have made 4th. (side note : i don't cite names directly. I'm new to the slowtwich forum and am not sure that apart from simon whitfield, lance armstrong, chrissie wellington and so on, names are welcome...)

So yep. I wouldn't call the TTF Duathlon a successfully organized event ! This was supposed to be the national champs and we end up with a top 15 that has been put together more or less randomly. This is a real shame!

After reading the previous thread about the TTF, it turns out that people mostly enjoyed it and found it ran smoothly. Am I the only grumpy person here ??
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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Hey you Duathlete!

-----------------------------------------------------------
"You do what you have to do , so can do what you want to do."
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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Totally share your concerns. I too was Top 15 and ran past the turnaround (but was yelling at anyone who would listen about whether the Sprint turnaround wading fact our Du turnaround too). Ended up running a few hundred yards too far. My time was NOT inferred so I can only wonder if the final placings would look dramatically different. There's always next year to improve!

My other comment would be around the first 2 aid stations of the 10k - they were not expecting any runners through and hadn't even poured the water / Gatorade yet. Frustrating for sure.

All in all, fun to ride on the Gardiner & DVP, but not a very technical or challenging course at all - run & bike way too flat.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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florian wrote:
You could argue that I'm just stupid, and there's probably some truth in that statement. But the funny thing is that I was far from being the only one concerned by this bug. Actually 5 to 7 people, including the winner and the second overall, ran between 8 and 10k instead of 5.

Seeing how the winner's split for the 5K was 21:21 and the 2nd place was 20:55, it does look like they ran long but not 8K to 10K as that would be 2:08/k-2:40/K for 10K and 8K respectively. Lionel and Dave are fast, but not THAT fast.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [FatteLatte] [ In reply to ]
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Out of the 100ish duathletes how many missed the turn? I was further back (2:23 finish) and there was no one telling me to turn around but I also looked at my Garmin and figured out it was the turnaround. With the du and tri leaving the same transition if it was 5KM for the sprint, why wouldn't it be 5Km for the du?

It is the athletes responsibility to know the course, while the course map wasn't the best it was clear enough to show the 5KM turn.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: TTF Duathlon [FatteLatte] [ In reply to ]
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FatteLatte wrote:
Seeing how the winner's split for the 5K was 21:21 and the 2nd place was 20:55, it does look like they ran long but not 8K to 10K as that would be 2:08/k-2:40/K for 10K and 8K respectively. Lionel and Dave are fast, but not THAT fast.

Dave told me he ran 8k. I heard lionel ran 10, but this has to be confirmed.
The times posted are NOT their real time for run 2 but an estimation by the race referees of what they would have done for the split.
Amongst the athletes who missed the turn and complained, some had their time recalculated in that arguable way, some did not have this privilege at all.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [FatteLatte] [ In reply to ]
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FatteLatte wrote:
florian wrote:
You could argue that I'm just stupid, and there's probably some truth in that statement. But the funny thing is that I was far from being the only one concerned by this bug. Actually 5 to 7 people, including the winner and the second overall, ran between 8 and 10k instead of 5.


Seeing how the winner's split for the 5K was 21:21 and the 2nd place was 20:55, it does look like they ran long but not 8K to 10K as that would be 2:08/k-2:40/K for 10K and 8K respectively. Lionel and Dave are fast, but not THAT fast.

I think those were the "inferred/adjusted" times for 5k (which are a very slow R2 run for those guys), not the time of the distance they actually ran.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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So are you saying that they only adjusted the times of some of the guys that were affected by this???? That does not seem fair.

2:41 finisher. Here is my impression:

I couldn't tell from the map, where the turnaround was for Run2, so I made a point of looking for it on Run1. I realized then, that the turnaround sign only said "Sprint Turnaround" but did not have the word "Duathlon" on it.... but the sign was located at 2.5km from transition, so that HAD to be our turnaround for Run2. TTF was pretty tri-centric in all of its instructions, so it did not surprise me that the word "Duathlon" was not on the sign.

In Run2, I was pretty zonked and the turnaround seemed a lot further than I remembered it being, so I watched my Garmin for distance AND, I swung around my number belt so that my number was on the front of me, so that the turn marshall could see that I was wearing a black & white number to signify that I was a duathlete. Sure enough, he yelled at me to turn at the sign. I understand that the turn marshall was not at the turn when the fastest guys came through, but my point is, that even in the part of the pack where I was running, I was making a lot of effort to make sure I turned at the right spot. By the time I was in Run2, the course was packed with Olympic tri folks and the early sprint tri people, as well as the back half of the duathlete pack.

I'm sorry this happened to you Florian, but I can relate in a way. I'm at the other end of the pack where I am often out there by myself (like at Huronia, where the duathlon pack was very small and very spread out, and I went miles and miles on the bike without seeing anyone) so I always feel it is my responsibility to know where I am going and when I have to turn around, etc. I made even more of an effort wrt at the TTF because it was an inaugural event and I went into it, expecting there to be a lot of screw-ups. It went fairly well in my mind, but I did feel that for a race to be called the National Duathlon championship.... the very least they could have done was to figure out approximately what time the first duathlete was going to hit the Run2 turnaround, and ENSURE that there was a turn marshall there by then! Second would have been to have Duathlon Run2 marked on the turnaround sign as well.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [CeeCee] [ In reply to ]
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CeeCee wrote:
so I always feel it is my responsibility to know where I am going and when I have to turn around, etc. I made even more of an effort wrt at the TTF because it was an inaugural event and I went into it, expecting there to be a lot of screw-ups.

thanks for sharing your experience ceecee.
you have much wisdom, i have to learn from this.
keeping in mind that a du is nothing but a collateral damage of a good tri event...
or i should learn how to swimm
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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florian wrote:
thanks for sharing your experience ceecee.
you have much wisdom, i have to learn from this.
keeping in mind that a du is nothing but a collateral damage of a good tri event...
or i should learn how to swim

You're welcome. Love the collateral damage line :)

Yeah, there is always that learning to swim thing. I think every duathlete thinks about that at times. It gives you a lot more races to choose from and you will always be part of the main race at these events. I can't swim and I'm not willing to devote the time required to become even minimally competent at it. I do wonder though, what it would be like to hit the bike with fresh legs and lungs....!
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting - thanks for clarifying. Weird that they would try to infer that. Those times are quite slow for those guys over a 5K! Definitely sounds like the organizers dropped the ball on the course markings, which is very disappointing seeing how it was the national championship.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [Kayastah] [ In reply to ]
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" but not a very technical or challenging course at all - run & bike way too flat."

Well I'm glad you found the bike portion a breeze. I would definitely agree that on paper the Gardiner/DVP seems quite a bit "easier/faster" than say Gravenhurst, which was narrow, rolling, full of hard 90deg turns and littered with rollers. However, my bike time was almost the exact same both weekends and that head/cross wind coming back across the Gardiner nearly killed me. Either way, thought the race was amazing and I really hope that it continues, as it's very rare to find events that having staying power, in the core of the city (i.e Queens park Criterium, St. Lawrence Criterium, all the cross races that have been cancelled, etc...)

And Florian, yes, you should take up swimming ;)

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Re: TTF Duathlon [devinci_rider] [ In reply to ]
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devinci_rider wrote:
" but not a very technical or challenging course at all - run & bike way too flat."

Well I'm glad you found the bike portion a breeze. I would definitely agree that on paper the Gardiner/DVP seems quite a bit "easier/faster" than say Gravenhurst, which was narrow, rolling, full of hard 90deg turns and littered with rollers. However, my bike time was almost the exact same both weekends and that head/cross wind coming back across the Gardiner nearly killed me. Either way, thought the race was amazing and I really hope that it continues, as it's very rare to find events that having staying power, in the core of the city (i.e Queens park Criterium, St. Lawrence Criterium, all the cross races that have been cancelled, etc...)

That's funny you should say that because I was looking through my duathlon results and my bike speed for Sunday was almost identical to what I did the last time I did Gravenhurst, even though on paper, they would look like very different profiles. I think the thing with Gravenhurst is that a lot of the downhills carry you most of the way up the uphills.

My speed was great until I hit the sharp uphill back onto the Gardiner, and then the headwind along the Gardiner was a killer too.

BTW, if you like hills, try Huronia next year. Much tougher than Gravenhurst, and I would say even tougher than Cobourg. Then there's always Welland for the other end of the spectrum :)
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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Hey florian..

I feel your pain! I almost missed the run2 turnaround until a guy slowly mumbled "sprint and du turn around" in a voice that sounded like he was begging for having something better to do!

Anyway..I only overshot by maybe 5 metres, but I definitely agree that they did not adjust the times correctly for Dave and Lionel... who should've been in the 18 min range.

You should still protest the results in my opinion. What happened to you is plain unfair.

Duathlete by choice?
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Re: TTF Duathlon [parichitb] [ In reply to ]
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parichitb wrote:
You should still protest the results in my opinion. What happened to you is plain unfair.

i've been protesting since sunday evening, kindly emailing the time and results crew every single day.
they never replied at all, be it to say "please be patient we're working on it" or whatever.
so yep, if their plan is to let things as they are, ie the grand champions are corrected but random age groupers are screwed up, that's pretty bad for the image of the sport
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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Florian, you are not just any random age grouper, weren't you first overall in a du recently? ;)

Let's face it, us duathletes are 2nd class at most races. ever noticed that the organizers push the start time of the duathlon back so that the fastest duathlete would not cross the line ahead of the fastest triathlete? I am not as fast as you and Parichit. In a tri, I would be mid pack at best - if i manage to get to T1 alive - because of my swim and also because most of the really fast guys are in the tri race at the same venue. It still amazes me how so many of those guys can swim 1.5k in under 30 min and still throw down a sub 1:05 40k bike split.... :(

I also need to learn how to swim.... my first love is tri, but i turned to du after DQing and nearing drowning at a tri.... :( i still think a tri is more fun... :(
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Re: TTF Duathlon [florian] [ In reply to ]
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florian wrote:
i've been protesting since sunday evening, kindly emailing the time and results crew every single day.
they never replied at all, be it to say "please be patient we're working on it" or whatever.
so yep, if their plan is to let things as they are, ie the grand champions are corrected but random age groupers are screwed up, that's pretty bad for the image of the sport

Who are you emailing? I think you will have to do a formal protest to get anything changed, which I believe is via OAT, or it may be Triathlon Canada. There is a specific process.

I don't know if you want to start swimming. You would definitely have to cut your hair :)
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Re: TTF Duathlon [CeeCee] [ In reply to ]
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Was a protest lodged within the 15 minutes of finishing? If not your arguments, as true as they maybe, are most likely falling on deaf ears. Regardless they should at least respond to your email(s) even if it is just to say sorry protest period is over.

Were you hoping for a WC Du slot?


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: TTF Duathlon [CeeCee] [ In reply to ]
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Florian,

I hope they adjust your times like they did many of the others. I am glad you protested on site as this gives you a leg up.

I was watching this all go down from the comforts of my bike. The sign was very poorly marked and the volunteer was standing there doing nothing before and during the arrival of the top duathletes. I am not sure when he actually decided to step into position from the grass but it was a poor job on his behalf.

After seeing the adjusted results for the top runners, I am amazed that they used the times to fill in their second runs. It is a shame as it was shaping up to be a great race for 2nd and beyond. Lionel was out very far and running super fast.

Anyway, keep rocking Florian!

Larry Bradley
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Re: TTF Duathlon [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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Florian still got his WC spot - there were 10 spots per AG available, because it was classified as the National Championships.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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I think he might be emailing sportstats and they are probably feeling it is not their place to respond. I believe the adjustment decisions were made by the OAT or TriCan officials on site. Sportstats would be taking direction from the officials, in this situation.
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Re: TTF Duathlon [CeeCee] [ In reply to ]
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Hopefully he is not emailing Sportstats since they didnt time the event ;)

Glad to hear he still got his slot.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: TTF Duathlon [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Hopefully he is not emailing Sportstats since they didnt time the event ;)

Good point.

I ended up in the medical tent with an IV in my arm, so nothing I say can be relied upon to be true or accurate :)
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Re: TTF Duathlon [CeeCee] [ In reply to ]
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CeeCee wrote:
Who are you emailing? I think you will have to do a formal protest to get anything changed, which I believe is via OAT, or it may be Triathlon Canada. There is a specific process.

my list of recipients keeps growing every day !

I started with times&results@TTF and info@TTF. No answer.
Then I added info@triathloncanada in the loop and independently asked their opinion about the overall mess at the du nat champs. No answer.
Later I resent the same message to TTF and cc'ed Alan Trivett, executive director of triathlon canada, thinking this would shake the TTF crew a little bit to see the boss on the list. To my big surprise (he obviously has other fish to fry right now...) Alan kindly answered he wasn't aware of that mess and but that someone would come back to me once they've sorted it out. No one did yet.
Finally today I wrote to Jeff, the TTF director, who recently sent a self-praising email to all TTF competitors, asking for feedback... He got mine but i'm still waiting for his.

Also I've posted a comment on http://triathlonmagazine.ca/...on-festival-results/ just to inform folks that Lionel certainly didn't run R2 in 21:21. For the details I redirected the curious reader to that ST thread. The comment never passed the moderators.

So my feeling now is that the TTF has been globally received as a well organized event by the community. This was challenging for a first time event of that size, but well, this HAD to be the case : they organize the tri nat champs next year, so nothing but a "success" was expected. Any major failure that would question their professionalism/credibility was to be avoided... or dissimulated. Apparently not much has filtered out about the duathlon mess. Apart from people directly concerned nobody is aware. At the end most folks were happy, and the top 3 was as it should have been. So well, why bothering with details ? Modifying the results now could attract attention on a mess that is best kept non publicized. Following my silly conspirationist reasoning (i hate doing that!) a status quo is certainly the best option for the TTF organizers and Triathlon Canada. And if a few folks are left pissed off, well, that's how it is... It's just the duathlon after all !

CeeCee wrote:
I don't know if you want to start swimming. You would definitely have to cut your hair :)

hey, i already cut 90% last fall. what is left is just a tiny souvenir of my young days. sure it can fit under a swim cap !
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Re: TTF Duathlon [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Was a protest lodged within the 15 minutes of finishing? If not your arguments, as true as they maybe, are most likely falling on deaf ears. Regardless they should at least respond to your email(s) even if it is just to say sorry protest period is over.

yep i did everything right on time : first protest 5 min of finishing, second protest 1 min of results posting!
both times when i asked the race ref if i had to file a protest form and she said no, adding it was not necessary b/c so many folks were concerned and she would treat our claims asap.
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