There always diminishing returns on training time at some point. Once you've gotten a reasonable swim time you aren't training to shave minutes off your time so much as using your swim fitness to better prepare you for your bike/run. The trick is to put in a good time with as little effort as possible. Only you can decide where that point is for you. Swimming is also a great way to do some active recovery.

Unless you are a pro..then if you have a mediocre swim you had better have a killer bike or run.

In order for me to significantly get faster in swimming say to average 1:20 per 100m (a 11 percent faster time) would require a significant increase in swim volume and intensity.

It all depends. It might be that to achieve that gain, you only need to improve technique, which might not require much additional time, and no additional intensity. (Dependent on how much time and intensity you're spending now.)

And it has to be balanced with how much improvement you're capable of achieving in the other disciplines. If you're pretty much at your limit as a cyclist (maybe you've been racing bikes for years, say), you might find it a whole lot harder to pick up three or six minutes on the bike.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Yes, but then there is the run. The distances are just much longer on the run and bike that it would almost be impossible for most AGers not to make a bigger time gain in these disciplines than the swim.

I could see that if someone never swam and was swimming closer to the cut off swim times or was seriously back of the pack but had good bike and run skills maybe swimming would be the way to go.

Yes, but then there is the run.

Yes, but I think the theory applies. There's more time to be made up on the bike and the run, for sure. Whether or not it's easier for any specific indivdual to make up time in those events instead of the swim is another question, and depends a whole lot on how fast they already are in each discipline relative to their potential, and the reasons they're not faster.

Anyway, I think it all depends. That's my scientific answer.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

It's harder to pick up time on the swim. Put the volume in on the bike and the run and you'll get faster. Not so with swimming. With swimming it's about technique which is harder to master. I've also noted that being fast in the pool doesn't necessarily translate on being fast in open water.

But to add to this, I'm working on my swim this winter. Joined a master' group, bought the Total Immersion tapes, etc. Hopefully it'll pay off next season.

How are you supposed the get on the drafting train with a slow swim ? Having a good swim can gain heaps of time on the bike these days it seems.

"""I am a reasonably fast swimmer can average under 1:30 per 100m for HIM distance."""

1:30 per 100m is not reasonably fast.

edit: by spending a few hours on your technique, you might drop to 1:25 per 100m with no increase in volume of frequency. In reality fixing you technique, depending upon how poor it is, may yeild a bigger time savings than a new set of race wheels, and aero bike.

For instance, when i started swimming I became a 21:00 1.5k swimmer down from 29:++ in just two weeks all due to technique improvement.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Well my average pace gets me top 10% overall. So I think its reasonably fast. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

If you didn't have such a cool handle, I'd hate you.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Are those times you are comparing pool times or triathlon course times?

Are you trying to make a point to the rest of us or just merely justify in your own mind why you don't swim? Honestly... I fail to see where you're going with this post.

Maybe you're not in my group, but I have a TREMENDOUS amount to gain from swimming and the least of which might be a faster time in that event. Getting onto the bike course a little after the gun and a bit wet but entirely fresh will count much afterwards. I genuinely think most people here (I won't guess the rest of the tri community) downrate the swim because of the time-cost and overhead of getting to the pool instead of giving it due respect.

I'll be one of the first to agree it's all about the run, but you've got to get there first... and feel pretty studly coming out of T2.



FWIW

Daniel

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

If one were to look at it from a "time trial" perspective, you'd be spot on.

The same perspective says that you can trim less time off your 5K run than you can your 1/2Mary. That part is obvious. One could use that perspective/strategy to focus almost solely on the bike ... and since this is ST, there'd probably be quite a few give up a "Hell yeah!", on that one.

Faster 100y paces are not the only barometer of improved fitness. You can swim XX:XX and be [1] obliterated, [2] tired, [3] so-so, [4] pretty good, or [5] fresh. Seems that your training would have some affect on this, right?

There is no accurate way to measure to measure the effect that swim fatigue has on the bike and the run (AFAIK), but it should be safe to assume, that all things being equal, the person that swims the fastest swim at the lower exertion level will have the most left to put into the bike and run, n'est pas?

How do you think you build fast swim times at low exertion levels? Probably the same way you build fast run times and bike paces at lower exertion levels. Improvements in fitness and technique. In other words, you work at it.

Edit: Swimming is also "low-impact" so, one can build fitness with less toll on the legs (i.e., ankles, tendons, knees, etc). Fitness is transferable. Seems most people don't just swim to "improve their swim", but to improve their fitness and overall race performance.

You also quite a few folks that have their swim pace where they are content with it, and swim just enough to maintain that pace at their desired exertion level. They obviously swim less than someone seeking to make significant improvements in that area.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

You might have gotten away with it if you had said you were a reasonably fast swimmer among triathletes. Of course, I can also say that I'm a reasonably fast runner among retirement home residents, but that doesn't mean much either.

daniel...i dont he is engaged in self-justification...he already said he is in the top 10% of swimmers, so he clearly swims a lot...i think he is saying that he would have been better off devoting some of his time swimming to another sport...

i agree with what the rascal is saying...for the vase majority of imers.... the amount of time it would take to improve one's swimming time would be better spent focused on biking or running....if someone could improve their swim time by ten minutes lets say, then that person would very likely improve either run or bike time by more than ten minutes for the same amount of training...clearly if you are getting closer and closer to the FOP then swim times play a greater role...but for the 90% of athletes who are 11 hours or more...there are greater gains to be had on the swim and bike

I'll qualify this by saying I'm not fast at any discipline, but I tend to agree with you that focusing more time on the bike/run would improve your final standing moreso than piling on more hours in the pool, simply looking at the numbers. If sighting and open water comfort have been problem areas, then they certainly need to be addressed, as they will hinder any performance.

I plan on swimming no more than 2x per week next season and replace that 3rd or 4th session with time on the bike. Can't go wrong on the bike.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Mark Allen recently wrote that for years he could not understand why he melted down at Hawaii on the run when that was his strength. He eventually realized he was too undertrained on the swim and bike to support his running prowess, and once he accepted the need to swim well things started to click.

Luc Van Lierde has always trained big volume swim b/c he feels he gets a big return on VO2 without risk of injury.

Getting out of the water feeling like you are with fast people always lifts the level of your racing. Getting out with the slow people forces you to move out to the middle of the road and weave around the packs and compromises your bike talent.

Those two times were in a LC pool. Before and after 10hrs of one on one stroke work . All I did for each swim practice was technique work in the diving well, no intervals. Open water times saw the same reduction and eventually after a few years of half assed swimming (almost year round with the exception of XC season) dropped into the sub 19:00 for 1.5k.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

As someone mentioned earlier the real benefit to spending more time in the pool is not just a faster swim split BUT better fatigue resistance to swimming.

If you take someone who spends an extra 1.5hrs in the pool per week for two months and they only reduce their half IM swim split by :15 sec on avg, that looks like a poor return on their investment. But consider that they now can ride and run an extra minute faster because they are getting out of the frsher and having expended less overall energy.

The total saving is now 2:15 which would be considered a fair return on their investment.

Looking at time saved or gained, in all three sports, is more than just looking at the time actually saved in the sport that you focused on. Instead you need to look at the impact it will have as a whole on the race.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

You are absolutely correct. I swim 57 in an Ironman (wetsuit) pretty consistently. I used to swim a lot (4000yds 3-4 times per week). Last year I cut back to 2 swims of 2000yds a week, some weeks only 1 swim. My IMLP swim split....57 minutes flat, fastest ever.

The swim is just too short compared to the other two events to put a lot of time into training for it.

Well I guess since this is a TRIATHLON forum and the topic was related to swim training and performance gains while participating in TRIATHLONS, it is is only obvious to make the assumption that my comment was made in reference to TRIATHLON, considering the entire topic and premise of the original post in which I originally made the comment was related to TRIATHLON training. I guess it must have been lost on you.

Perhaps, you are reasonable smart compared to people with IQs less than 70, but compared to the average person you my friend are not.

Considering that my pace which averages around 1:27 per 100 meters for a HIM gets me in the top 10%, yes I would say I am reasomably fast for TRIATHLON.

Perhaps, if you have a problem with TRIATHLON discussions you could take your comments to another forum that discusses swimming for swimming sake.

Bottom line, I am not justifying my lack of swim training. I do go swimming 4 times a week. I am just commenting on the fact that when you actually look at where most people time gains can be made it is not in the swim, but rather in the bike or run.

If you look at the results from any IM, but look at the results from the Hawaii Ironman World Championship, one could swim over an hour (be MOP on swim) and still be in the TOP-100 for the entire race, whereas no one whose swim-bike time was MOP was in the TOP-100.

It is simple math, there is more distance and time on the swim and bike

I guess you don't get it. Read Desert Dude's posts regarding the fact that swim training is not always about swim time rather it is about total time. If you can come out of the water fresh, then that will help you. If you can be ahead of MOP on the swim you will not have to knock elbows and fight as much for the first few hundred yards. On gordo's forum, one of the biggest errors he says people make on IM day is swimming too hard for the first 5-10 minutes. Many people do this because they get caught up in the hype and want to stay ahead of the masses. If your swim fitness is good enough, then you won't have to start the swim hard, and you can still stay ahead of the 60 minute yahoos who swim the first 400m in 5:00. So your swim training will help you to minimize any time spent near or above your LT on the swim, which can kill you later. I think the swim is really no different than the bike; an efforless swim sets you up for a bike which sets you up for the run. Think big picture, and you will realize your swim fitness can pay dividends across the board. I am a 24-26 min Half IM swimmer (depends on course length) only swimming 1-2 times per week this past season, but I plan on swimming 3 times per week at 5500 yards per workout from now until IM AZ. This does a few things. It helps to build overall fitness. It increases durability, because any subsequent workouts those days will follow an AM swim. The swim at AZ will be cake, and I will only have to worry about 2 sports that day. Finally it will get me far far away from the drafting mess that has become IMNA races.

If someone is racing IM and Half IM exclusively then you are absolutely right. Realistically IM and Half IM are glorified Duathlons and swim is basically irrelevant unless you are REALLY slow.

Now, if the Nice distance catches on in the US like I hope it will then all the non-swimmers will have to rethink their training.

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"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"

Now, if the Nice distance catches on in the US like I hope it will then all the non-swimmers will have to rethink their training""""

That makes two of us!

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Make that 3!!! The Nice distance really sounds fun. I'm not a great swimmer, but I can swim just as well as I can bike or run which a lot of triathletes can't do.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T