There'll be a lot of differnt views but from a non swimmer (as in never did squads, coached or swam regularly) my view is that you should be trying to get some sound fundamental swim technique sorted first then do some distance/time with that locked away.

We (as in adult learners) will never be able to execute the type of efficient and correct technique of those childhood squad swimmers who can be out of the water/not swim for years and then jump in and comfortably hose us after we've spent the last few years doing adult squad 5 x /week. It's not fair but it's life. If you missed the boat then it's gone.

But that said, we can at least move ourselves from the complete stumbo to the acceptable swimmer and working first on bedding down the fundamentals is (in my less than experienced opinion) the best way to go. My rationale is that you have the ability to progress further via hard work with a solid technical skill base locked down than the other way around.

I must add that I'm no great swimmer myself but I have spent (too many) years watching very good swimmers and chewed the ear of a few handy (international level) coaches to reach my position. I do know from practical experience that it's bloody hard to learn when you're older.

You probably will see a time reduction. "Much" is relative.


You do not necessarily need to spend money but yes, learn and apply technique.

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Formerly TriBrad02

I have some decent experience/insight into this as a self-taught adult swimmer who went from BBBOP to MOP, hopefully FOMOP soon; my thoughts differ from most swim coaches and ex-competitive swimmers. Took me 6 years to progress. nothing came easy, and I was a serious student of swimming from the start.

I spent 2 years as a slower than 2:00/100yd swimmer for 1000yds TT. A lot of that was technique, and I had major flaws to fix, big overrotation and scissor kick being the big speed killers here. Still, there was no denying how puny and weak my arms were in retrospect - the reason I was 2:20 and not 1:40 was NOT because my technique just sucked (which it did),but I had no power in my stroke as well. Once I fixed the big technique things (they were pretty obvious on home video) I got to about 2:05/100 for 1000.

Next 3 years I got from 2:05 to 1:45/100 for 1000yd TT. During this time I did more volume but not a lot (avg about 8-10k/wk consistently), but did swim hard, all intervals when I did. I did regular technique drill sets and even entire 1-2 weeks of drill focus blocks as well, based on self video to fix the errors. Honestly, I think 99% of my improvement on that time in retrospect was swim fitness, NOT technique. I used to think that I was naturally picking up better technique by the increased swimming, so it was both technique and power, but I now think it's almost all power. Every time I did a technique block, and sacrificed some interval volume/intensity to fix technique, I lost speed, quite a bit, actually.

The clincher for that unorthdox outlook has been my last year of swimming which I've posted a lot about. Specifically, I got a Vasa trainer (do a search on it and you'll find 8 page threads I started) in Jan 2014, and used it consistently, to get my swim volume to about 4-7hrs/wk Vasa, 1-2hrs/wk pool. The Vasa didn't change my pool stroke at all - I have self video to confirm this compared to old videos pre-vasa. But the vasa allowed me to ramp up volume to about the equivalent of 20k/wk regularly (vasa estimated yards = pool yards for me.) My arms feel pretty dead whenever I ramp up volume or intensity, so it's def fitness. Even with the least pool time I've spent in the past 5 years (but more Vasa time), I broke through my 2 year plateau, and started making continuous, real progress all year. Just this past week, I did a 1000TT in 1:23/100 pace, which absolutely crushes my prior self in Jan 2014 where I was 1:40ish. It is entirely due to power and endurance in my stroke, and because it's all Vasa, I cannot credit subtle technique gains from pool volume (I'm not in the pool much!) My OWS race times were also faster - 2 mins faster on Oly and HIM in July, likely a even bigger gap now.

Again, I'm NOT a FOP swimmer, and I know that technique in competitive swimming where 0.1sec can be the diff between winning the Olympics or not even making the olympic podium, so in that case, you better have as perfect technique as possible. But for a ex-BOP swimmer (for 2 years!) and others trying to just get to MOP or FOMOP, I think the big limiter isn't a small technique fix, but a big lack of power/endurance in the stroke. In retrospect the worst advice I got once I was 2:05/100 was believing the ex-competitive swimmers who say 'it's all technique, not fitness, you don't need the volume', when they themselves have obviously swam often 40k or even 80k/wk to get to where they are.

Also note that while I LOVE my Vasa trainer, it's no magic bullet. I'm sure that if I had spent the same Vasa time in the pool, I'd be just as fast, possibly faster, due to specificity of water swimming. However, the Vasa allows me to swim at home, whenever I want, as much as I want, with no lack of quality due to a crappy circle swim with slow swimmers who don't know how to yield. It's now no big deal to throw in a tough 30min session AM/PM for 60min a day, even 7 days/wk, whereas if I had to drive to a pool, that would be logistically impossible as a triathlete who has to bike/run. The funny thing as well is that since I go to masters sporadically now (scheduling issues) but am improving, I jumped up a lane, and prob could jump into the next faster one - because those old poolmates notice the speed jump, they say "great technique!" - it's easy for folks to confuse the smoothness gained by swimming faster in general, with technique gains.

I also don't feel like my results are atypical. In fact, because I clearly have little swim talent (2 years at 2:00/100yds!), I think I'm probably a very reasonable example of the gains expected as a MOPer who goes from 8-10k/wk to 20-25k/wk. And again, I didn't expect this reality at all - I spent 6 years believing that I was slow because of some stroke error, and wasted a lot of time trying to find the stroke fix that would give me those 20sec/100 I needed. The Vasa clarified things though - I honestly didn't expect to improve much with it, and would have been fine it if had just maintained my swim ability from deteriorating when the pool closed. It's been a real eye opener for me; I wish more people had one or could use it a lot like I do as well as I think a lot more people would start to see what I'm seeing in terms of how dominant the power component of swimming is for making the jump from BOP to MOP or MOP to FOMOP.

None of the elite swimmers I know "just swim". They are always working to a program. Get a program/coach/squad and you will improve. More time is always good but more effort and effort on specific things, well structured effort: that will get you better results sooner and more effectively.
Does that help?

Swimming a lot will help, swimming a lot with working on your technique will help even more. Hopping on a squad will help but may not be an option. When I started I was around 2:00/100y on a 1000y test. Two years later I am 1:29/100. Most of this was 10-12k per week 11 months out of the year. Did a few weeks of 12-15k, mostly during base season to build my fitness up quickly. Never had a coach or squad, just emulated the faster swimmers I saw on youtube.

swimming is 100% fitness and 100% technique.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I would also add in 100% concentration. This is the case for me, the moment I let my mind start thinking about other stuff other than technique my form goes to hell and I end up way off course.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I'll tell you after IMAZ.

After years of swimming 2x week (generally swam 1:05-1:10 for IM) I've cranked up both frequency and volume (most weeks 14-16k yards). I am also doing stretch cordz before all swims. My pool times have come down a bunch, but not sure how 100 and 200 will translate to 2.4 open water. I hope to either go faster and/or swim about the same but get into the bike feeling much fresher.

I have way more confidence going in but we'll see.

Regardless, swimming more can't hurt.

Nice comprehensive post. Which model are you using? How do you pass the time?

I'll preface by saying I've never really committed to working on my swim, but I have plenty of experience not working on it. Generally for a HIM I would swim 3x/week for 2500-3000 ScY, mix of drills and short <400 intervals. Very little improvement. This year I did my first HIM in over 3 years. Had a Mtb crash two months before said HiM that almost took my head off, literally close-lined myself at decent speed. Swam maybe 6 times in the two months leading up to the race because my neck was so stiff. I had a relatively good swim for me and crushed the bike and run. First good HIM race I have ever put together. I think at some point for MOP-BOP swimmers, unless prioritizing becoming a better swimmer is above becoming faster to the finish, one's training hours are much more wisely spent on other disciplines.

I've Never heard that before. I agree (100%).

I think swimming a lot is critical for improvement as an adult onset swimmer. While improvements in technique are what will ultimately allow you to swim a lot faster, I think that swimming a lot is necessary to gain the fitness that the more efficient, faster swim stroke will require, and it will improve your feel for the water which will allow you to make breakthroughs in your stroke. I didn't swim as a child either and my most recent improvement in swim speed (from ~1:17 pace to ~1:12 pace in 1000 yd TT) resulted from increasing swim volume to 15-20,000 yds/week and swimming with a masters group with an excellent coach. I recall Jordan Rapp writing that he felt that his "sweet spot" for swim improvement is about 25-30,000 yds/week...

I'm using the $2000 Vasa erg (I misstated Vasa trainer before.)

I watch videos on my laptop (Netflix/HBOGo) on long sessions, but keep an eye on the power numbers to make sure I'm not slacking off, similar to using a bike trainer.

Do a search on these forums - I have like several 6-8 page threads on them detailing my positive experiences. Vasa should seriously pay me for shilling for them! , but honestly, it's an effective device if you're willing to put the work and time into it.

Again, improving with this allowed me to really separate power from technique in terms of my improvement; I think a lot (most) swimmers who spend tons of time in the pool vastly overestimate their technique contributions to their speed, saying those 40k weeks allowed for great technique gains, when the reality is that 40k/wk allowed for great fitness gains moreso than the technique. I'll bet (yes it's a guess, but I feel pretty strongly about this based upon the gains I've been making) those same swimmers, if you had them do their same training volume/intensity but split up 85%Vasa/15%pool like I've been doing, would be only a hair slower than their all-pool selves - they certainly wouldnt' suddenly drop from FFFOP to FOMOP. But according to their "it's all technique mantra", that's exactly what should happen (or worse) if that was the case where the fine details pool technique or "water feel" was so crucial the bulk of their speed.

I would say find a coach. I've never read the classic response to more than quadruple the swim and lose less than 10 seconds/100. I wish I had that problem. My guess is a few tweaks would really speed you up.

You are correct. I can swim 200 yards with my head out of the water the entire time under 2:10. It's because I pull really freaking hard. It's not because of technique.

However you are incorrect that most swimmer who spend tons of time in the pool think it is technique. Not sure why you think that. It is NONSWIMMERS who think that. Off the top of my head, the "swimmers" on ST (by no means is this an exhaustive list):
JasoninHalifax, TJFry, RealALbertan, HalfSpeed, TigerChic, EricMulk, TriSlice, Me: I think you will find we all agree that better technique starts with better fitness. If you ever read the fish report, you will basically see NO drills being performed.

The only swimmers who take the opposing view are the TI folks. Do you know how TI is viewed in the swimming world?

I def agree with you and the folks you mentioned about all you guys not discounting hard work - you guys tell it like it is.

However, both here and on BT, as well as most swimming forums, it's absolutely a well propagated myth "swimming is all technique", and "all the yards are for building the technique, not the fitness". Competitive swimmers constantly make points about how they can take months off and them come back at fast paces due to their awesome technique, when it's actually a huge fitness base that allows them to do that, and technique on top.

TI is def guilty of outright saying "swim easy to swim fast." While competitive swimmers tend to outright disagree with that, I still feel they hugely overemphasize the technique part over the fitness part when they give advice to MOPers trying to improve.

Again, I'm just responding to OP who sounds like a MOPish swimmer. For the FFOP fish, you gotta be sharp everywhere.

I was a swimmer in my youth, but after taking thirty-some years off, had to 're-learn' how to swim triathlons.

I've mostly worked on my own, but have found that there is no substitute for getting some objective feedback from time-to-time.

I made some fundamental changes this past year, particularly with my hip rotation. My coach had me start out doing sets of 25's until the changes where imprinted, then increase to 100's, 150's, etc., working up to 400's as I was able to do the intervals without any breakdowns in technique. The secondary benefit was that I was also building swim fitness at the same time, but while maintaining good form. To me that is a better approach than doing long swims to build fitness where your technique gets sloppy as you tire.

Mark

For the FFOP fish, you gotta be sharp everywhere.


^^THIS^^

It is not either/or....it is both. You can swim you azz off with poor technique or have perfect technique but not swim hard. Either way, you will never make decent gains. It's BOTH. Work on your stroke and swim hard.

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Joel Filliol: The Top 20 Rules for Faster Triathlon Swimming

You can also slowly develop you technique from just swimming more, but probably not refine it as quickly as with specific drills. Of course practice poor technique or developing bad habits or doing drills incorrectly can send you the opposite direction.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

But the proper hand placement, arm angles, timing, etc (technique) contribute to this "really freaking hard" pull.


Agreed you have to have swim fitness to be able to hold the technique together for the allotted time.


While I do not call myself a fish, I do believe drills have their place in certain programs. Mine are usually the latter part of my warm-up done with a little intensity still to gear up for my main set(s).

Just my .02 from a non-fish.

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Formerly TriBrad02

Arm angles, timing etc. all get thrown out the window if your head is out of the water (Maybe not timing). Body position is terrible, legs are sunk, arm angles bad but still pulling really hard.

There are elements of truth to both the "technique is most important" and "fitness is most important" points of view, of course neither is 100% correct.

In my case (I know me best), I can pretty much float my way to 1:30/100m pace, just going through the motions with good technique. That's wit barely any kick, and just concentrating on keeping my head down / legs up, everything in a straight line, and getting my forearm vertical. So clearly I'm not relying on fitness when I do that, I'm not pulling hard or anything. The only "fitness" component there is the fitness to move those parts of my body that should move, and not move the parts that should not.

Conversely, I can also swim that pace doing one-arm free style, sprinting head up free, doing fist drills, kick only, and other stuff that is poor technique by definition. That's fitness.

my point is that you can swim reasonably quickly on "just technique", or on "just fitness". However, to swim really really well, you need both.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I do drills, but not a lot. They are mostly as a way to get in a few metres recovery between hard efforts, and reinforce good habits / eliminate bad habits during the recovery.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly